[taukarrie]

As I understand it, when you want to attack more than one target on your turn you must spend a minor action in addition to your major action for attacking and then split the attack dice pool evenly among all targets. for me this covers any single gun firing in SS, SA, narrow BF, and melee weapons. For other firing modes and dual gun wielding i have questions..

- wide BF: do you need to spend that minor action for multiple targets or is this just part of the gun's BF feature, similar to how full auto works?

- dual wielding Full Auto: I am pointing a pair of auto pistols at the 6 guys in front of me and im about to fire both of them on full auto to spray down all six guys. How am I splitting the pool? RAW seems to say that, assuming the guns are identical, the results of firing a single full auto pistol are the same as firing a pair. In fact, firing the pair of pistols will get me the same rolls, AR and damage as firing a single pistol with the added cost of 10 more ammo and a minor action. So if i have an attack pool of 12 and im about to use it to attack these 6 guys i can..

fire a single auto pistol on full auto: 2 dice per target, use full base DV of the weapon for any hits, potentially scaled up by net hits. (costs 1 major action and 10 ammo)

or

fire a pair of auto pistols on full auto: 2 dice per target, use full base DV of the weapon for any hits, potentially scaled up by net hits. (costs 1 major action, 1 minor action, and 20 total ammo)

Is this really how it works or am I missing something?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The short answer is if you're going to try this, just spend the 4 Edge for Anticipation and make life easy for yourself.

P.S. when asking rules questions, citing page numbers is immense help to people inclined to try to help.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Do you still need to expend the minor action to multi-attack with wide burst BF?
- looks to me like yes. Where the FA option says you don't have to even make the mutiattack action, wide BF   just says that you CAN make the multiattack. This is in contrast to, say, a SA burst or narrow BF which don't even allow for the option of splitting the attacks.

Dual wielding: honestly... just don't.  But if you must, be sure you take ambidextrous quality so you don't suffer left-hand problems (PG. 110).  Using two guns at once is reasonably a way to be able to use multiattack with firing modes other than wide BF.

Dual-wielding FA guns: remember, without ambidextrous, you can't even spend edge. So no Anticipation.  And if you use Anticipation with 1 gun, there's no reasonable need for a 2nd gun.

[taukarrie]

Do you still need to expend the minor action to multi-attack with wide burst BF?
- looks to me like yes. Where the FA option says you don't have to even make the mutiattack action, wide BF   just says that you CAN make the multiattack. This is in contrast to, say, a SA burst or narrow BF which don't even allow for the option of splitting the attacks.

Dual wielding: honestly... just don't.  But if you must, be sure you take ambidextrous quality so you don't suffer left-hand problems (PG. 110).  Using two guns at once is reasonably a way to be able to use multiattack with firing modes other than wide BF.

cant you just do two consecutive SA shots using a minor action and split the dice pool with the same AR/DV mods? Wide burst is apparently just two SA shots. If youre spending a minor action either way theres no difference.

"SA: You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1.
BF: You’ve got a fancy gun that pumps out multiple rounds with a single trigger pull. You can fire four rounds in an attack. You can shoot a narrow burst, which decreases the Attack Rating by 4 and increases damage by 2, or make a wide burst and split your dice pool between two targets and count each as a SA-mode shot. "
- 6E CRB pg. 109



Dual-wielding FA guns: remember, without ambidextrous, you can't even spend edge. So no Anticipation.  And if you use Anticipation with 1 gun, there's no reasonable need for a 2nd gun.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well, if you COULD use multiattack with (one) SA gun, what would the reason be for wide BF rules to say you can use multiattack?

Letting you split SA attacks is, as you say, giving wide BF functionality to weapons that lack the BF firing mode.

[CigarSmoker]

[...]
Is this really how it works or am I missing something?

not missing anything.

Like you wrote wide burst is 2 SA mode shots. Thats written in CRB p.109.

So thats what Ambidextrous is good for despite using 2 SS one handed weapons. Further it can be used to Multiattack with Throwing Weapons (you didnt mention that, but i think thats clear)

[taukarrie]

Well, if you COULD use multiattack with (one) SA gun, what would the reason be for wide BF rules to say you can use multiattack?

Letting you split SA attacks is, as you say, giving wide BF functionality to weapons that lack the BF firing mode.

"Multiple Attacks Whether it’s shooting a bunch of bullets at multiple people, throwing shuriken at a marauding group, or using a sword in each hand, there may be times you want to deliver multiple attacks at once. This can be against multiple targets, or you could attempt two attacks against the same target. Whatever the case, to make multiple attacks, divide your attacking dice pool by the number of attacks made as evenly as possible, then make the rolls. If you are making two different kinds of attack (like, say, a gun in one hand, a knife in the other) divide each of your normal dice pools by two, rounded down. Defenders will defend as normal; if the multiple attacks are made against a single target, they only have to roll once, and their hits will be compared to all of the attacker’s rolls to determine success."

- 6e CRB pg 111

"Multiple Attacks (I) A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it. Split your dice pool evenly among all targets, or if you are using two different forms of attack, use half the dice pool for each, rounded down. This action must be used in conjunction with an Attack Major Action. "

- 6e CRB pg 42

Thats all the rules I can find on multiple attacks. I havent found anything that restricts a gun firing in SA mode. I would think if you can throw "shuriken at a marauding group" you could probably squeeze a trigger a few more times. Are there additional rules on multiple attacks somewhere that I'm missing?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Are you also arguing that you can, by absence of a restriction prohibiting it, make a multiattack with a SS attack? That you can somehow shoot X targets with ONE bullet?

I hope not.

Now, sure, if you're using TWO SS or SA guns simultaneously, then you can multiattack. But with one gun?  Since wide BF sets a precedent that a firing mode needs to say it is multiattack-compatible, SA (and SS, and narrow BF) is implicitly NOT compatible with that rule.

[CigarSmoker]

Thats all the rules I can find on multiple attacks. I havent found anything that restricts a gun firing in SA mode. I would think if you can throw "shuriken at a marauding group" you could probably squeeze a trigger a few more times. Are there additional rules on multiple attacks somewhere that I'm missing?

If you could use Burst Fire (BF) with any single gun that has Semi-Automatic (SA) listed, what reason would there be to have a separation between SA and BF mode ? The differentiation would than be between SA(SA or wide Burst Fire) and narrow Burst Fire, not between SA and BF (narrow or wide) as it is RAW.

Thats just common sense and with lack of examples in the CRB thats all we got for now.

[Xenon]

As I understand it, when you want to attack more than one target on your turn you must spend a minor action in addition to your major action for attacking and then split the attack dice pool evenly among all targets. for me this covers any single gun firing in SS, SA, narrow BF, and melee weapons.

Wait what??

No, with a SS firing weapon you can only tap the trigger once to fire one bullet at one target.


When it comes to SA firing mode I suggested the House Rule:

SA firing mode
You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1, or split your dice pool between two targets and count each as a SS-mode shot. You may also fire just one round with one trigger pull, counting the attack as a SS-mode shot.

Note that the italic part from the above is not RAW.


With a BF weapon you can aim at one target and tap the trigger twice to automatically fire two bursts at one target. This is resolved as one attack that have a damage value of +2 but an attack rating that is reduced by 2. This is called Narrow Burst.

With a BF weapon you can also aim at one target, tap the trigger once to automatically fire one burst at the target and then aim at a second target and tap the trigger a second time to automatically fire one burst at the second target. To do this you need to spend a minor action on multiple attacks and split your dice pool. Each attack have a damage value of +1 but the attack rating is reduced by 2 and it is compared to the highest defense ratings of your targets. This is called Wide Burst.

- wide BF: do you need to spend that minor action for multiple targets or is this just part of the gun's BF feature, similar to how full auto works?

Yes.

The only exception where you don't spend that Minor action when attacking multiple targets is Full Auto.

- dual wielding Full Auto: I am pointing a pair of auto pistols at the 6 guys in front of me and im about to fire both of them on full auto to spray down all six guys.

Are you talking about machine pistols with full auto capability? Semi-automatic pistols (which is what I normally think of when someone says auto pistols) normally does not have full auto capability...

If you have a weapon with full auto firing mode then you just split the dice pool up to ten times and attack up to ten separate times (same target or different targets). In this case you don't have to spend a minor action. Damage value is unchanged but attack rating is reduced by 6 and compared to the highest defense rating of your targets.

Is this really how it works or am I missing something?

With two full auto weapons you can potentially fire three bursts at each of the six targets by splitting the pool 18 times (which is probably not a good reason even if it can be done).

But a good reason to dual wield two SS weapons or two melee weapons or one ranged weapon and a melee weapon is to attack two targets (or the same target twice) by splitting the pool.

And a really good reason to dual wield together with the ambidextrous quality is to have a katana in one hand (for Wrest) and a BF weapon in the other (for Anticipation Wide Burst).

[Arkas]

You can do multiple attacks with SS Mode. The main differences are as follows:

 - SS fires one round. Multiple attacks cost a minor action in conjunction with a major one.

 - SA can fire two rounds in quick repetition. They are both shooting at the same target and count as a single attack. Multiple attacks cost a minor action in conjunction with a major one.

 - BF can fire 4 rounds in quick repetition. They either all go as one attack or can be split up into two attacks (splitting the pools as well), with only a major action (without the need of an extra minor action).

 - FA you are essentially completely free to do multiple attacks with one major action and without the need to spend an extra minor action.

Being ambidextrous, in my opinion, only bears minor tactical advantages, should the situation arise to make use of it. Highly situational.

[Michael Chandra]

There won't be many GMs that allow you to do Multiple Attacks with a single SS weapon, since SS weapons do not list rules for Multiple Attacks.

[Banshee]

It says right in the multiple attack action ... assuming ammunition.. etc. allow it.

SS can not do multiple attacks unless you're dual wielding, SA would at most get 2 targets
So BF and FA are the go to options for multiple attacks just because of the amount of bullets they can throw in the air

[Xenon]

You can do multiple attacks with SS Mode.

No, you can not fire one bullet at two different targets. No matter how many minor actions to throw at it (I can't believe you are even trying to argue this to be honest). But yes, you can use two SS weapons to multiple attack two different targets by firing each weapon once, splitting the pool and spending a minor action.

- SA can fire two rounds in quick repetition. They are both shooting at the same target and count as a single attack.

Yes, this part I agree with.

Multiple attacks cost a minor action in conjunction with a major one.

No, book actually currently don't support firing at two targets with SA mode, but a good house rule could be to treat this as two separate SS attacks while you also spend a minor action.

Another good house rule could be to allow you to only fire one single bullet at one single target (SS mode attack even though you are in SA firing mode) by spending a regular major action (but without changing firing mode).

- BF can fire 4 rounds in quick repetition. They either all go as one attack or can be split up into two attacks (splitting the pools as well)

Yes, this part I agree with.
Reason why you can't attack four different targets is because each time you tap the trigger in burst firing mode the weapon will automatically fire a burst of bullet (and also because the rules state that wide burst can only target two different targets).

with only a major action (without the need of an extra minor action).

No. Attacking multiple targets always cost an additional minor action.
Unless it explicitly say that it doesn't (see Full Auto).

- FA you are essentially completely free to do multiple attacks with one major action and without the need to spend an extra minor action.

Yes. This is the only explicit exception to the general rule that you need to spend a minor action when taking multiple attacks. You still need to split the pool though. And attack rating is reduced by 6.

Being ambidextrous, in my opinion, only bears minor tactical advantages, should the situation arise to make use of it. Highly situational.

Being able to shift between Wrest (or intercept) with a melee weapon and Anticipation with a Wide Burst firearm without spending a major action to ready another weapon is more than a minor advantage (you can't gain or spend edge on off hand attacks unless you are ambidextrous).

Depending on your build this might actually be quite valuable and well worth the 4 customization karma it cost.

[CigarSmoker]

- SS fires one round. Multiple attacks cost a minor action in conjunction with a major one.

You can read the RAW opposite of what you did there: you can only shoot once per SingleShot Weapon per Combat Round . That means a char with 2 Major actions needs 2 guns if he wants to fire two Single Shots per Combat Round. A "Gunslinger Adept" with 2 single shots revolvers utilizing "Ambidextrous"  is a typical example for dual revolvers. (side note: Odd enough the best Revolver has only SA mode)

The rules are totally grey area there and i would just check such details with the GM before making the char. And then we all hope for a FAQ

edit: i dont think thats really the intention of the rules since it makes everything more complicated but it would mean as well
SS -> max 1 Bullet per Combat Round
SA -> max 2 Bullets per Combat Round (and no SA weapon has Single Shot listed ...)
BF -> max 4 Bullets per Combat Round
FA -> max 10 Bullets per Combat Round