Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Shadowhack on <10-30-19/2100:14>
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Within one week the Pegasus (German) version of Shadowrun will overtake the English version in sales. I don't know if that will mean anything to Catalyst or not but has that ever happened before on DriveThru so soon after an edition has come out?
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Nope, but the team currently running SR lacks sufficient self-awareness to wonder why their translator with a history of fixing their mistakes is selling more books than the main line.
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This is however "only" DriveThru right?
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I mean CGL uses their own shop as well, which the physical-Gencon-buyers also got their free PDF from, and agents also have access to their own source so not the store. So I have no idea what the full numbers would be.
Anyway: Spiel just happened, and Pegasus is one of the biggest companies around that one, so I'm not surprised the german edition sells well. Honestly, the english physical book also sold well, so why are we comparing to the Pegasus version?_? Shouldn't we compare to SR5 results? I'm mostly shocked that the german PDF is selling for what the german physical books sold for in SR5.
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Well, to me it seems there is something mplicated in this topic, that is not really needed. SR will sell well either way, so this is not what it is really about. A sales competition also makes no sense, ideally Pegasus and CGL would not be competitors. The german market for SR has been quite big most of the times, and it is exactly that slice of the cake, that Pegasus is doing SR for (something CGL could not reasonably do). The german books do however have a lower threshold when it comes to buying in (yes I mean the pricing), this may also have an effect.
But maybe B&J market number crunch is just not my flavor of ice cream.
I'm mostly shocked that the german PDF is selling for what the german physical books sold for in SR5.
Really, why? While it is not only the price of the SR5 hardcover, but also the price of the SR6 hardcover, it also is the same price Berlin 2080 sells for, same as the US PDF, and about half the US hardover (if I am seeing this correctly). Is the latter what you are shocked about? Really not quite sure here.
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I guess I'm just too used to PDFs being cheaper than hardcovers, that I am surprised Pegasus sells their hardcovers and PDFs for the same amount.
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Well, to me it seems there is something implicated in this topic, that is not really needed. SR will sell well either way, so this is not what it is really about. A sales competition also makes no sense, ideally Pegasus and CGL would not be competitors.
If I owned the license for the Shadowrun IP I would encourage competition between licensees. As a customer of Shadowrun IP product, I encourage and kind of expect competition between the licensees because that competition, if undertaken seriously, should result in a better product for all of us.
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Pegasus is currently at Copper level (51-100 copies sold) while Catalyst is at Platinum (1000-2000 sold). The Hottest list is current sales (I believe it's a floating 7-day tally), so I think they might blip up above them, but then go back down. Most of Pegasus' books don't even break into the Copper level at all.
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If I owned the license for the Shadowrun IP I would encourage competition between licensees.
Well that is however not quite the way things are in this case though.
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I mean, competition? One sells English. The other sells translated versions and adds their own content. Why would you want competition there? Wouldn't that mean CGL stops letting Pegasus translate their stuff, meaning we get two vastly different editions, where most of the world has no use for the second version due to not speaking the language?
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I mean, competition? One sells English. The other sells translated versions and adds their own content. Why would you want competition there? Wouldn't that mean CGL stops letting Pegasus translate their stuff, meaning we get two vastly different editions, where most of the world has no use for the second version due to not speaking the language?
If the relationship is between Catalyst and Pegasus (Pegasus simply translating Catalyst's work with Catalyst benefiting somehow) I can understand what you are saying but if the relationship is Topps as the license holder with Pegasus and Catalyst acting as two separate and distinct licensees with their own interests and interpretations on the license; in that case my point stands. I may have misunderstood the relationship if the former is true. I guess I thought that Topps could license out the IP to whomever they wanted. I didn't know that it had to be exclusive to one licensee.
I will also say this. If Topps allowed Catalyst to have an exclusive license to the Shadowrun brand they are fools. Shadowrun is a huge name in the rpg world that will not go away anytime soon. They could be licensing that brand out to any number of licensees for many different kinds of product running the gamut of all entertainment.
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I mean, competition? One sells English. The other sells translated versions and adds their own content. Why would you want competition there? Wouldn't that mean CGL stops letting Pegasus translate their stuff, meaning we get two vastly different editions, where most of the world has no use for the second version due to not speaking the language?
If the relationship is between Catalyst and Pegasus (Pegasus simply translating Catalyst's work with Catalyst benefiting somehow) I can understand what you are saying but if the relationship is Topps as the license holder with Pegasus and Catalyst acting as two separate and distinct licensees with their own interests and interpretations on the license; in that case my point stands. I may have misunderstood the relationship if the former is true. I guess I thought that Topps could license out the IP to whomever they wanted. I didn't know that it had to be exclusive to one licensee.
I will also say this. If Topps allowed Catalyst to have an exclusive license to the Shadowrun brand they are fools. Shadowrun is a huge name in the rpg world that will not go away anytime soon. They could be licensing that brand out to any number of licensees for many different kinds of product running the gamut of all entertainment.
Licensing is usually exclusive to a single company. That's the reason for the company to get the license so they can be the only ones making the product. It's the reason only Disney makes Star Wars movies, Sony owns Spider-Man, and Warner Bros. makes DC comics.
Licensing, as a concept, was created so that a brand does not become watered down among different companies, each doing something different.
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Within one week the Pegasus (German) version of Shadowrun will overtake the English version in sales. I don't know if that will mean anything to Catalyst or not but has that ever happened before on DriveThru so soon after an edition has come out?
By the way, Pegasus' book's already dropped off the top ten. But Carbon 2185 is the top book now (Cyberpunk with D&D 5E rules)!
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Shadowrun's License is also one of those victims of being sliced up a lot on what seems like a permanent basis. Sorta like how the Marvel Movie rights are (or were, Disney for the first AAA corp, if you don't count Unilever or the old GE or East India companies?) held by lots of different groups, the rights to make SR tabletop games are held by a different company than the one that has the rights to make videogames and in fact apparently the reason Shadowrun Returns never had coop was because the rights to a multiplayer SR game were not held by Harebrained Schemes.
This actually isn't remotely uncommon actually. Licensing is generally done on a product to product basis, and often times not even then. Disney didn't give FuncoPop the exclusive rights to collectible Star Wars merch for example, and licenses out its tabletop games to FFG, its videogames to EA, and has multiple deals with many companies for many products, from food to Star Wars brand toothbrushes.
But those companies don't get to own any aspect of Star Wars and can't sell off the license. For SR it seems weirder because the license for the videogames (at least multiplayer ones), from what I can tell, is held by Microsoft, meaning they get to sell off the ability to make videogames on some level (as they seem to have done with Cliffhanger) even as Topps gets to sell off its tabletop rights, as well as the rights for things like novels.
The relationship between Topps, Pegasus, and CGL is not known in specific but from what I understand CGL sublicenses out to Pegasus. The reasons why are not 100% clear, but Germany is apparently big on Shadowrun so it could just be a big enough market that three different entities taking cash for the license there still works out, with Pegasus paying comparatively a lot for the license but still making off very well because the German market is just that good, while CGL gets both to avoid having to localize for that market which saves money and gets paid by Pegasus.
What especially makes this more complicated is that CGL is a LLC, as is Topps (as its owned by an LLC in whole). This means that a lot of information that normally goes public isn't really public at all, for example CGL doesn't generally publish sales figures because it doesn't need to as it has no shareholders who legally need that information. So a lot of these deals are less back room and more just not public because no non-company figures have any technical need to know. So its a lot of speculation besides the overt legal status of the products, and even that can get hazy at times.
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Shadowrun's License is also one of those victims of being sliced up a lot on what seems like a permanent basis. Sorta like how the Marvel Movie rights are (or were, Disney for the first AAA corp, if you don't count Unilever or the old GE or East India companies?) held by lots of different groups, the rights to make SR tabletop games are held by a different company than the one that has the rights to make videogames and in fact apparently the reason Shadowrun Returns never had coop was because the rights to a multiplayer SR game were not held by Harebrained Schemes.
This actually isn't remotely uncommon actually. Licensing is generally done on a product to product basis, and often times not even then. Disney didn't give FuncoPop the exclusive rights to collectible Star Wars merch for example, and licenses out its tabletop games to FFG, its videogames to EA, and has multiple deals with many companies for many products, from food to Star Wars brand toothbrushes.
But those companies don't get to own any aspect of Star Wars and can't sell off the license. For SR it seems weirder because the license for the videogames (at least multiplayer ones), from what I can tell, is held by Microsoft, meaning they get to sell off the ability to make videogames on some level (as they seem to have done with Cliffhanger) even as Topps gets to sell off its tabletop rights, as well as the rights for things like novels.
The relationship between Topps, Pegasus, and CGL is not known in specific but from what I understand CGL sublicenses out to Pegasus. The reasons why are not 100% clear, but Germany is apparently big on Shadowrun so it could just be a big enough market that three different entities taking cash for the license there still works out, with Pegasus paying comparatively a lot for the license but still making off very well because the German market is just that good, while CGL gets both to avoid having to localize for that market which saves money and gets paid by Pegasus.
What especially makes this more complicated is that CGL is a LLC, as is Topps (as its owned by an LLC in whole). This means that a lot of information that normally goes public isn't really public at all, for example CGL doesn't generally publish sales figures because it doesn't need to as it has no shareholders who legally need that information. So a lot of these deals are less back room and more just not public because no non-company figures have any technical need to know. So its a lot of speculation besides the overt legal status of the products, and even that can get hazy at times.
To clarify my point, you're not going to see Disney license videogame rights to EA AND Obisidian for Star Wars. You choose one runner for the market and they establish the brand in that market.
The Pegasus/CGL deal started out as just translating the books for the German market, and then it evolved. Pegasus is producing original content that may not sell in America, but is a big seller in Germany.
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Well, to me it seems there is something implicated in this topic, that is not really needed. SR will sell well either way, so this is not what it is really about. A sales competition also makes no sense, ideally Pegasus and CGL would not be competitors.
If I owned the license for the Shadowrun IP I would encourage competition between licensees. As a customer of Shadowrun IP product, I encourage and kind of expect competition between the licensees because that competition, if undertaken seriously, should result in a better product for all of us.
Licensing is a complex legal obligation on two ends, and mucking around like what you suggest can actually end up costing up more - right down to the IP!
Case in point: The whole, Robotech-battletech designs IP.... That mess has been going on for 40 years, and has ended up with the IP owners (Harmony Gold) losing their exclusive license to the IP! And that is on top of the multi millions lost to legal battles over those 40 years, nor does it include the legal fees for the appeal...
Heck, Licensing gets even governments in trouble ALL the time!
My company had an exclusive repair and maintenance license with the BC government (2016) for 10 to repair and maintain the electrical grid that BCHydro didn't. In 2017 BC went tot he polls and changed Governments. 4 months later they signed the SAME contract with another company! So now my company is involved in a multi million lawsuit against the Government for this breech.
(its a license and not a contract, because we have to follow BCH specs, use BCH equipment, BCH suppliers. In effect they just are "renting" our manpower.)
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To clarify my point, you're not going to see Disney license videogame rights to EA AND Obisidian for Star Wars. You choose one runner for the market and they establish the brand in that market.
You actually see that quite often! Its generally unusual for a flat out media product, but for example Marvel has been licensed out to Capcom, Crystal Dynamics, and Second Dinner (A mobile developer) all at the same time! While one of these isn't in direct competition, two of them are multiplayer console games.
It comes down to the details. Terminator has been licensed out to like 6 videogames this year alone because the license agreement was as much a promotional one as one to get the rights to the character (Including to Warner Brothers, which is... really weird... basically one movie studio is promoting a rival studio's movie using its game development division...), so its likely the companies receiving the license were not expecting to get exclusive rights to the Terminator in a videogame but also weren't paying for it.
Star Wars doesn't have multiple companies pushing the license likely because EA specifically has exclusivity, but exclusivity in a licensing deal is not something that is assumed, especially because defining what a competitor is is rather hard. Are Hasbro and Funko Pop in competition or are action figures and Funko Pops different things? I dunno. That is up for the involved parties to decide, and it isn't unusual at all to toss that out to WHOEVER. Apparently Disney, Hasbro, and Funko all decided they aren't, or didn't agree on exclusivity in the domain of collectible figures. Meanwhile Captain Marvel's only food brand deal outside of like... birthday cakes... was with... Dole (yeah, I know, weird, I double-taked when I realized the Pineapple I bought was superhero branded) so its possible, but not guaranteed, they got exclusivity on that movie.
It also is sorta 'normal' in the domain of RPGs and boardgames (and overall in the current corporate era as things start to get a little monoply-esque) to have relatively 'weak' or even non-existant exclusivity. Dragonfire is a prime example of this, it isn't exactly like CGL became the main developer of D&D themed boardgames, with in addition to the standard Harsbro 'reskins' like Monopoly and Clue, has other companies like Wizkids and Avalon Hill in the mix! You even have direct genre competitors! And this is assuming that CGL licensed out D&D, rather than Hasbro licensing out Crossfire, which while probably less likely is totally possible.
Licensing deals are extremely detail oriented and are all pretty much unique. The thing going on between CGL and Pegasus isn't even that weird in the grand scheme, we just don't know much about it because Topps, CGL, and I believe Pegasus are not publicly traded, so its very mysterious what the nature of the deal even is.
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Case in point: The whole, Robotech-battletech designs IP.... That mess has been going on for 40 years, and has ended up with the IP owners (Harmony Gold) losing their exclusive license to the IP! And that is on top of the multi millions lost to legal battles over those 40 years, nor does it include the legal fees for the appeal...
Just a clarification here: Harmony Gold does not own the IP; they license part of it from a Japanese company that in turn has a license for Robotech from the actual IP owner (another Japanese company). The two Japanese companies had a legal dispute in which a Japanese arbitrator determined that the original company did indeed own the underlying IP, but also that the other company did have licensing rights for overseas markets. Harmony Gold on the other hand only really owns what they specifically created for their Macross property. However HG are IP trolls, and sue anyone who touches anything remotely related to Robotech in general, even when authorized to use said materials with a licensing agreement from the Japanese company responsible for overseas licensing.
I was really hoping the last batch of lawsuits would go all the way through trial as there was a previous decision wherein a California court used the arbitration between the two Japanese companies to show that HG does not in fact completely control every aspect of the IP and all underlying characters like they claim. Unfortunately no one has had the money and/or desire to fight HG on this so far, and with the recent renewal of their license this is likely to continue on for some time. If anyone did get a ruling against HG (the California court accepting the Japanese arbitration paperwork doesn't count, but that could be introduced as evidence in a trial), they could be liable for repayments for attorneys fees and court costs at least to those companies/individuals they previously sued and settled with. Given how long they have been getting away with this though, I wouldn't hold my breath on it happening anytime soon.
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To clarify my point, you're not going to see Disney license videogame rights to EA AND Obisidian for Star Wars. You choose one runner for the market and they establish the brand in that market.
You actually see that quite often! Its generally unusual for a flat out media product, but for example Marvel has been licensed out to Capcom, Crystal Dynamics, and Second Dinner (A mobile developer) all at the same time! While one of these isn't in direct competition, two of them are multiplayer console games.
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Licensing deals are extremely detail oriented and are all pretty much unique. The thing going on between CGL and Pegasus isn't even that weird in the grand scheme, we just don't know much about it because Topps, CGL, and I believe Pegasus are not publicly traded, so its very mysterious what the nature of the deal even is.
Just to add to this: Before EA got a 10 year exclusivity deal, multiple companies developed video games for the Star Wars franchise, often at the same time. Granted some games were better than others (ironically LucasArts produced games seemed to have received the worst reviews during that period, but I happen to like them /shrug), but as Dezmont said the EA exclusivity license is an exception and hasn't usually been the rule.
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Original prediction proved wrong, thread closed.