[Shadowhack]

Within one week the Pegasus (German) version of Shadowrun will overtake the English version in sales. I don't know if that will mean anything to Catalyst or not but has that ever happened before on DriveThru so soon after an edition has come out?

[wraith]

Nope, but the team currently running SR lacks sufficient self-awareness to wonder why their translator with a history of fixing their mistakes is selling more books than the main line.

[Arkas]

This is however "only" DriveThru right?

[Michael Chandra]

I mean CGL uses their own shop as well, which the physical-Gencon-buyers also got their free PDF from, and agents also have access to their own source so not the store. So I have no idea what the full numbers would be.

Anyway: Spiel just happened, and Pegasus is one of the biggest companies around that one, so I'm not surprised the german edition sells well. Honestly, the english physical book also sold well, so why are we comparing to the Pegasus version?_? Shouldn't we compare to SR5 results? I'm mostly shocked that the german PDF is selling for what the german physical books sold for in SR5.

[Arkas]

Well, to me it seems there is something mplicated in this topic, that is not really needed. SR will sell well either way, so this is not what it is really about. A sales competition also makes no sense, ideally Pegasus and CGL would not be competitors. The german market for SR has been quite big most of the times, and it is exactly that slice of the cake, that Pegasus is doing SR for (something CGL could not reasonably do). The german books do however have a lower threshold when it comes to buying in (yes I mean the pricing), this may also have an effect.

But maybe B&J market number crunch is just not my flavor of ice cream.

I'm mostly shocked that the german PDF is selling for what the german physical books sold for in SR5.

Really, why? While it is not only the price of the SR5 hardcover, but also the price of the SR6 hardcover, it also is the same price Berlin 2080 sells for, same as the US PDF, and about half the US hardover (if I am seeing this correctly). Is the latter what you are shocked about? Really not quite sure here.

[Michael Chandra]

I guess I'm just too used to PDFs being cheaper than hardcovers, that I am surprised Pegasus sells their hardcovers and PDFs for the same amount.

[Shadowhack]

Well, to me it seems there is something implicated in this topic, that is not really needed. SR will sell well either way, so this is not what it is really about. A sales competition also makes no sense, ideally Pegasus and CGL would not be competitors.

If I owned the license for the Shadowrun IP I would encourage competition between licensees. As a customer of Shadowrun IP product, I encourage and kind of expect competition between the licensees because that competition, if undertaken seriously, should result in a better product for all of us.

[FastJack]

Pegasus is currently at Copper level (51-100 copies sold) while Catalyst is at Platinum (1000-2000 sold). The Hottest list is current sales (I believe it's a floating 7-day tally), so I think they might blip up above them, but then go back down. Most of Pegasus' books don't even break into the Copper level at all.

[Arkas]

If I owned the license for the Shadowrun IP I would encourage competition between licensees.

Well that is however not quite the way things are in this case though.

[Michael Chandra]

I mean, competition? One sells English. The other sells translated versions and adds their own content. Why would you want competition there? Wouldn't that mean CGL stops letting Pegasus translate their stuff, meaning we get two vastly different editions, where most of the world has no use for the second version due to not speaking the language?

[Shadowhack]

I mean, competition? One sells English. The other sells translated versions and adds their own content. Why would you want competition there? Wouldn't that mean CGL stops letting Pegasus translate their stuff, meaning we get two vastly different editions, where most of the world has no use for the second version due to not speaking the language?

If the relationship is between Catalyst and Pegasus (Pegasus simply translating Catalyst's work with Catalyst benefiting somehow) I can understand what you are saying but if the relationship is Topps as the license holder with Pegasus and Catalyst acting as two separate and distinct licensees with their own interests and interpretations on the license; in that case my point stands. I may have misunderstood the relationship if the former is true. I guess I thought that Topps could license out the IP to whomever they wanted. I didn't know that it had to be exclusive to one licensee.

I will also say this. If Topps allowed Catalyst to have an exclusive license to the Shadowrun brand they are fools. Shadowrun is a huge name in the rpg world that will not go away anytime soon. They could be licensing that brand out to any number of licensees for many different kinds of product running the gamut of all entertainment.

[FastJack]

I mean, competition? One sells English. The other sells translated versions and adds their own content. Why would you want competition there? Wouldn't that mean CGL stops letting Pegasus translate their stuff, meaning we get two vastly different editions, where most of the world has no use for the second version due to not speaking the language?

If the relationship is between Catalyst and Pegasus (Pegasus simply translating Catalyst's work with Catalyst benefiting somehow) I can understand what you are saying but if the relationship is Topps as the license holder with Pegasus and Catalyst acting as two separate and distinct licensees with their own interests and interpretations on the license; in that case my point stands. I may have misunderstood the relationship if the former is true. I guess I thought that Topps could license out the IP to whomever they wanted. I didn't know that it had to be exclusive to one licensee.

I will also say this. If Topps allowed Catalyst to have an exclusive license to the Shadowrun brand they are fools. Shadowrun is a huge name in the rpg world that will not go away anytime soon. They could be licensing that brand out to any number of licensees for many different kinds of product running the gamut of all entertainment.

Licensing is usually exclusive to a single company. That's the reason for the company to get the license so they can be the only ones making the product. It's the reason only Disney makes Star Wars movies, Sony owns Spider-Man, and Warner Bros. makes DC comics.

Licensing, as a concept, was created so that a brand does not become watered down among different companies, each doing something different.

[FastJack]

Within one week the Pegasus (German) version of Shadowrun will overtake the English version in sales. I don't know if that will mean anything to Catalyst or not but has that ever happened before on DriveThru so soon after an edition has come out?

By the way, Pegasus' book's already dropped off the top ten. But Carbon 2185 is the top book now (Cyberpunk with D&D 5E rules)!

[dezmont]

Shadowrun's License is also one of those victims of being sliced up a lot on what seems like a permanent basis. Sorta like how the Marvel Movie rights are (or were, Disney for the first AAA corp, if you don't count Unilever or the old GE or East India companies?) held by lots of different groups, the rights to make SR tabletop games are held by a different company than the one that has the rights to make videogames and in fact apparently the reason Shadowrun Returns never had coop was because the rights to a multiplayer SR game were not held by Harebrained Schemes.

This actually isn't remotely uncommon actually. Licensing is generally done on a product to product basis, and often times not even then. Disney didn't give FuncoPop the exclusive rights to collectible Star Wars merch for example, and licenses out its tabletop games to FFG, its videogames to EA, and has multiple deals with many companies for many products, from food to Star Wars brand toothbrushes.

But those companies don't get to own any aspect of Star Wars and can't sell off the license. For SR it seems weirder because the license for the videogames (at least multiplayer ones), from what I can tell, is held by Microsoft, meaning they get to sell off the ability to make videogames on some level (as they seem to have done with Cliffhanger) even as Topps gets to sell off its tabletop rights, as well as the rights for things like novels.

The relationship between Topps, Pegasus, and CGL is not known in specific but from what I understand CGL sublicenses out to Pegasus. The reasons why are not 100% clear, but Germany is apparently big on Shadowrun so it could just be a big enough market that three different entities taking cash for the license there still works out, with Pegasus paying comparatively a lot for the license but still making off very well because the German market is just that good, while CGL gets both to avoid having to localize for that market which saves money and gets paid by Pegasus.

What especially makes this more complicated is that CGL is a LLC, as is Topps (as its owned by an LLC in whole). This means that a lot of information that normally goes public isn't really public at all, for example CGL doesn't generally publish sales figures because it doesn't need to as it has no shareholders who legally need that information. So a lot of these deals are less back room and more just not public because no non-company figures have any technical need to know. So its a lot of speculation besides the overt legal status of the products, and even that can get hazy at times.

[FastJack]

Shadowrun's License is also one of those victims of being sliced up a lot on what seems like a permanent basis. Sorta like how the Marvel Movie rights are (or were, Disney for the first AAA corp, if you don't count Unilever or the old GE or East India companies?) held by lots of different groups, the rights to make SR tabletop games are held by a different company than the one that has the rights to make videogames and in fact apparently the reason Shadowrun Returns never had coop was because the rights to a multiplayer SR game were not held by Harebrained Schemes.

This actually isn't remotely uncommon actually. Licensing is generally done on a product to product basis, and often times not even then. Disney didn't give FuncoPop the exclusive rights to collectible Star Wars merch for example, and licenses out its tabletop games to FFG, its videogames to EA, and has multiple deals with many companies for many products, from food to Star Wars brand toothbrushes.

But those companies don't get to own any aspect of Star Wars and can't sell off the license. For SR it seems weirder because the license for the videogames (at least multiplayer ones), from what I can tell, is held by Microsoft, meaning they get to sell off the ability to make videogames on some level (as they seem to have done with Cliffhanger) even as Topps gets to sell off its tabletop rights, as well as the rights for things like novels.

The relationship between Topps, Pegasus, and CGL is not known in specific but from what I understand CGL sublicenses out to Pegasus. The reasons why are not 100% clear, but Germany is apparently big on Shadowrun so it could just be a big enough market that three different entities taking cash for the license there still works out, with Pegasus paying comparatively a lot for the license but still making off very well because the German market is just that good, while CGL gets both to avoid having to localize for that market which saves money and gets paid by Pegasus.

What especially makes this more complicated is that CGL is a LLC, as is Topps (as its owned by an LLC in whole). This means that a lot of information that normally goes public isn't really public at all, for example CGL doesn't generally publish sales figures because it doesn't need to as it has no shareholders who legally need that information. So a lot of these deals are less back room and more just not public because no non-company figures have any technical need to know. So its a lot of speculation besides the overt legal status of the products, and even that can get hazy at times.

To clarify my point, you're not going to see Disney license videogame rights to EA AND Obisidian for Star Wars. You choose one runner for the market and they establish the brand in that market.

The Pegasus/CGL deal started out as just translating the books for the German market, and then it evolved. Pegasus is producing original content that may not sell in America, but is a big seller in Germany.