Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: cuidaBeja on <01-06-20/1845:56>
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Now that I've made an adept, I see the issues in the core adept wording, but what is the answer?
How should power points actually be gained?
1. Power points are gained whenever your magic stat increases (as per page 156) and can also be obtained through taking the corresponding metamagic on page 168, but at character generation you can only have as many power points as are given directly by your priority table choice (as per the wording on page 66)
2. The text on page 156 is a bad carryover from 5e, and so you start with power points equal to the magic listed on your priority table choice (as per pg. 66) which can only be increased through the power point metamagic (pg. 168)
3. The text on page 66 is poorly worded, and the parenthetical that implies that adepts cannot start with more power points than their table entry gives is just trying to inform you where to find their original magic stat? Adepts can boost their magic stat at character generation, which gets them additional power points, as will later increases to their magic stat during gameplay (pg. 156) as will the power point metamagic
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Officially no answer yet, and given that there are multiple wording changes that effect Adepts and Mystic Adepts (Burnout, Max Magic, Karma spend pre and post chargen, Benefit Points.) its difficult to say what the final Errat'd version will be.
Unofficially, I'd say do it like 5th Edition until someone says otherwise. Which is a decent rule of thumb for most questions.
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The change to "from the priority table only, not as altered with points, karma etc." seems to be intentional, as that instruction is used/repeated not just for adept points but also spells and a techno's complex forms.
So personally, I'd say that #1 or #2 are closest to the SR6 design intent.
Having said that though, using SR5 rules in the absence of clarity is a good call and frankly I don't see how it would really unbalance the game (well...mages are already strong. But 2 extra spells at chargen probably isn't going to make that much worse).
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The change to "from the priority table only, not as altered with points, karma etc." seems to be intentional, as that instruction is used/repeated not just for adept points but also spells and a techno's complex forms.
So personally, I'd say that #1 or #2 are closest to the SR6 design intent.
Having said that though, using SR5 rules in the absence of clarity is a good call and frankly I don't see how it would really unbalance the game (well...mages are already strong. But 2 extra spells at chargen probably isn't going to make that much worse).
Keep in mind that for Mages, the extra nerf-factor would be that right now, learning extra spells isn't legal by RAW in chargen. So the spells from your Priority? You're stuck with those until after play starts. The same for Adepts.
Right now, #1 seems to be the intended RAI, but I don't know what the errata will exactly contain. Personally I'd like for Adepts to be able to awaken PPs they lost, so there's an actual value to starting with extra Magic for them. (Otherwise, it'd be better for rules to block Adepts from gaining Magic in chargen.)
As for the houserule that Pegasus went with, that might work: It explicitly calls out that only karma-bought Magic will grant Power Points. But they also suddenly added that Mystic Adepts can get PP that way, which clearly flies against both SR5 and SR6 RAI and shows their bias towards Mystic Adepts.
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My preferred interpretation is that Power Points cannot go higher than your MAG from the priority pick *during chargen*, as per the RAW. But on top of that, they can go DOWN due to Essence loss, which is decidedly not RAW.
Of note, the way the German language CRB works: Adepts and MysAds can gain PPs when increasing MAG via karma, but not via SAPs.
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Of note, the way the German language CRB works: Adepts and MysAds can gain PPs when increasing MAG via karma, but not via SAPs.
A little off topic - Are the "clarifications" on certain things in the German CRB considered official changes (I hesitate to use the word errata, but that's where my mind is leaning) to the English CRB?
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They're basically judgment calls made by Pegasus Press, so have no official status when it comes to the English CRB.
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By default I stick to the same rules as per previous editions
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My unofficial opinion: You get one Power Point for every point of your Magic attribute, and you can gain additional Power Points through initiation. You get a new PP if the Magic attribute goes up (during or after chargen), and you lose a PP if the attribute ever goes down (e.g., when you lose Essence).
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The problem with that is that you can tell from the low benefits of the Magic Priority, that it's supposed to be expensive. As such, to disregard the 'no PP from attribute points into Magic' means the entire Priority chart becomes very unbalanced. Same for 'no buying spells in chargen'.
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I agree. The PP costs for powers in 6we is somewhat lower, so 1-4 PPs is actually viable. If you can just go up to 6 no matter what your magic pick was, then Attributes A becomes the only correct way to build an Adept.
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The rules seem to be quite clear. Both from a RAW and RAI point of view:
- Adepts in 6th edition get unadjusted magic rating number of power points from magic or resonance priority during chargen.
- Adepts in 6th edition gain one power point whenever they spend karma (but not adjustment points) to raise their magic rating by one point [post chargen].
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The rules seem to be quite clear. Both from a RAW and RAI point of view:
- Adepts in 6th edition get unadjusted magic rating number of power points from magic or resonance priority during chargen.
- Adepts in 6th edition gain one power point whenever they spend karma (but not adjustment points) to raise their magic rating by one point [post chargen].
Agreed, but *losing* PPs is less clear. The intent, surely, is that you're supposed to lose PPs when your Magic goes down.
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Losing Essence, Magic, and PPs needs to be/should get soon clarified. Hopefully. That also leads to the Burn out and char gen questions on SAPs and Karma which all should be cleared up "Soon". :D
I don't know that it's a major balance concern honestly. It's just the OCD itch of consistency. And Missions play. Really a 1.375 Essence Burn out Adept with 2 PP isn't going to break a table. However if the same character comes out of chargen 6 different ways at 6 different tables it's something that should be cleaned up.
If your table comes up with a different solution then what the Errata settles on, it's fine. The Errata team won't show up at your game and force you to play "right". But I get the impulse to be rules compliant. You can always start your game and if Errata comes along that changes something you can let your players /respec their build into something rules legal. Much like when a new source book comes out, some things are very difficult to get post char gen. Going back to the start and re-building a character should be allowed in some fashion, IMO.
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#1 is my interpretation. When it comes to losing power points, we say that magic loss means power point loss, as it has been in every previous version of Shadowrun. If an adept plans on taking augments in chargen, they should bump up their magic rating so the resulting loss leaves their power points protected.
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So at your table, excess Magic in chargen is basically a buffer for essence loss -> PP loss? That's rather nifty and makes me feel less bad about the lack of info on how to handle the PP-gap. I like!
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Agreed, but *losing* PPs is less clear.
It is clear that your unadjusted magic rating give magicians free spells.
It is less clear if magician lose spells if their magic rating goes down.
...how to handle the PP-gap.
Using adjustment points on magic as a physical adept is not as bad as you seem to think...
Using adjustment attribute points to raise magic rating during chargen is rather "cheap" in this edition.
One of the benefits of walking out of chargen with a higher adjusted magic rating is that you can bind more focus levels.
Spending karma to bind Qi focus is almost always the cheapest way to gain access to more power points.
Compare two physical adepts that both start with unadjusted magic rating 2 but one (A) also have an adjusted magic rating of 2 while the other (B) have an adjusted magic rating of 6.
Total karma cost for A to get a total of 10 power points (8 extra power points):
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
Raise magic to 3 = 15 karma
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
Initiate grade 1 = 11 karma
Raise magic to 4 = 20 karma
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
total cost: 86 karma. Current magic rating of 4. Max magic rating of 7.
Total karma cost for B to get a total of 10 power points (8 extra power points):
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
Bind force 4 Qi focus = 8 karma
Initiate grade 1 = 11 karma
total cost: 67 karma and 4 adjustment points. Current magic rating of 6. Max magic rating of 7
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If you can just go up to 6 no matter what your magic pick was, then Attributes A becomes the only correct way to build an Adept.
It's already the only correct way to build any other archetype, so...
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If you can just go up to 6 no matter what your magic pick was, then Attributes A becomes the only correct way to build an Adept.
It's already the only correct way to build any other archetype, so...
Attributes A is certainly very good, but sometimes you might want something that Resources B doesn't quite cut. And so long as Magic B isn't able to give you what Magic A gives you, that's another peg of possible reasons to go Attributes B or lower.
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Isn't Attributes supposed to not go into the special attributes, and only Racial points can go into those?_?
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Isn't Attributes supposed to not go into the special attributes, and only Racial points can go into those?_?
That would be one way to encourage a high Metatype pick....
But there is no such restriction. Attribute points can be spent however a player wants up to racial and chargen Max.
Never-mind, mis-read, though you said Racial attributes, not special attributes. Yes Edge, Magic, Resonance are Benefit points or Karma.
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The lack of clarity is really quite annoying. So I have suggested a house rule for that which goes as follows.
Adepts can never have more PP than their Magic Rating - To prevent the Cyberware abuse
Adepts get a free PP upon Initiation. Mystic Adepts cannot take the Power Point Metamagic - That way there is some initiative to put some magic even as adept which you can fill in the future without being forced to take the Power point every time.
P.S I like the new edition so far although there are some obvious holes which shouldn't have been here. It seems they didn't beta test this properly or made some last minute changes which shouldn't have been done.
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Adepts can't never have more PP than their Magic Rating
Wait what...?
Let me expand on that. Double negation aside, this would put a huge limit on the rate at which a physical adept can get power points.
With Magic and resonance priority A (unadjusted magic rating of 4) you would have 4 power points, but will not get a 5th power point when you initiate since your current magic rating is still only 4. So unless you first spend 25 karma to first raise your magic rating to 25 (which will now apparently not grant you any free power point anymore) this power point will be fully lost for all future. Which kinda sucks. Also, in order to gain even a single extra power point you would have to both raise your magic rating in addition to initiating (even if your initiation grade is still far from your current magic rating). If you also wanted to use your metamagic on a power point you would first have to first raise your magic attribute a second time (and once your initiation grade catch up with your maximum magic rating you don't even have the opportunity to get more than 1 power point each time you raise your magic rating + initiation on top of that).
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Pretty sure its Initiation Grade that caps at Magic, not PP.
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Adepts can't never have more PP than their Magic Rating
Wait what...?
Let me expand on that. Double negation aside, this would put a huge limit on the rate at which a physical adept can get power points.
With Magic and resonance priority A (unadjusted magic rating of 4) you would have 4 power points, but will not get a 5th power point when you initiate since your current magic rating is still only 4. So unless you first spend 25 karma to first raise your magic rating to 25 (which will now apparently not grant you any free power point anymore) this power point will be fully lost for all future. Which kinda sucks. Also, in order to gain even a single extra power point you would have to both raise your magic rating in addition to initiating (even if your initiation grade is still far from your current magic rating). If you also wanted to use your metamagic on a power point you would first have to first raise your magic attribute a second time (and once your initiation grade catch up with your maximum magic rating you don't even have the opportunity to get more than 1 power point each time you raise your magic rating + initiation on top of that).
Yeah the double negate is a typo. And I don't think you have understand what I mean. Currently the problem with adepts is that they have 0 initiative to raise magic with advancement points at char creation. If you play a human adept the only thing you can raise is EDGE. If you gain Free point at initiation this will give you some initiative to raise your magic with advancement points. But I can see your point. At certain point you will hit your Magic cap and will be unable to take the Power point megamagic anymore and adepts are kinda bad on options there anyway.
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Yeah, it's actually worse than a "there's no incentive to raise Magic for Adepts in chargen"... you're actively PUNISHED for doing so:
You spend SAP/Karma on increasing magic beyond your priority pick. Because this is during chargen, your PPs do not go up. AND, now it's even more expensive post-chargen to increase your MAG further so that you DO gain PPs. And if you went to 6 in chargen, on top of that now you have to initiate before you can even go beyond 6.
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Currently the problem with adepts is that they have 0 initiative to raise magic with advancement points at char creation.
See my response on that earlier in this thread. Do the math. It is not as bad as you seem to think...
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Agreed, but *losing* PPs is less clear.
It is clear that your unadjusted magic rating give magicians free spells.
It is less clear if magician lose spells if their magic rating goes down.
...how to handle the PP-gap.
Using adjustment points on magic as a physical adept is not as bad as you seem to think...
RAW skips karma for bonding
Shrug
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RAW skips karma for bonding
No. Rules as written (RAW) does not skip karma cost for binding a focus.
SR6 p. 154 Foci
The amount of Karma required to bond a focus is different for each focus, listed on the Magical Goods table....Once you’ve spent the Karma and the time, the focus’ power is available to you.
SR6 p. 168 Magical Gods Table
Qi focus Force x 2 Karma
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RAW skips karma for bonding
No. Rules as written (RAW) does not skip karma cost for binding a focus.
SR6 p. 154 Foci
The amount of Karma required to bond a focus is different for each focus, listed on the Magical Goods table....Once you’ve spent the Karma and the time, the focus’ power is available to you.
SR6 p. 168 Magical Gods Table
Qi focus Force x 2 Karma
Oops, I missed spoke.
At character creation RAW doesn't list bonding of foci as a use of karma.
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Incidentally, of all karma-expenses not listed, I personally think Bonding Foci should be listed. But we'll see once errata/faq come out.
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Incidentally, of all karma-expenses not listed, I personally think Bonding Foci should be listed. But we'll see once errata/faq come out.
I second that!
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As written you can only get power points (and spells) from your unadjusted magic rating during character generation. I think this is intended. The text is pretty explicit on the matter.
After character generation magicians (and mystic adepts) can get more spells by spending time, resources and karma.
After character generation mystic adepts and adepts can get more power points by initiation and selecting power point as their metamagic (both mystic adept and adept), binding qi focus (both mystic adept and adept) as well as raising magic rating (not mystic adept, only adept).
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I would like to point out also that the adept archetype they have in the book has a magic of 6 and has spent 5.5 in adept powers. I believe the text on the pg. 66 seems to be the "odd man out." They have done errata to the adept archetype as well, changing the stats around since it had to max stats. Not to say that they could not errata it again.
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Unfortunately many of the pre-gens in the CRB have errors.
Adept PP was changed in the recent Core Book .pdf 2nd printing, it works similar to earlier editions. Adepts get PP equal to Magic. Benefit points, Karma, Essence Loss to Augmentation or whatever, if it changes your Magic, PP changes.
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I thought only magic loss had made it in to the errata?? And karma magic gain adding points in the German errata...?
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AFB but I recall the char gen passage being "...Adepts get PP equal to Magic." or something to that effect. p. 68? 67? Something. I'll triple check when I get home if nobody comes along to correct me.
It made Priority D for Adepts "optimal" so I started tinkering with builds based on that already.
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The key measurements of power in adepts are their power points. These points are used by adept characters to buy the powers that will enhance their abilities. Whenever adept characters gain or lose a point of Magic, they also gain or lose a power point. This means that an adept character who starts with a Magic rating of 4 also starts with 4 power points. Power points do not need to be spent when they are obtained; characters can hold on to them and use them when ready.
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AFB but I recall the char gen passage being "...Adepts get PP equal to Magic." or something to that effect. p. 68? 67? Something. I'll triple check when I get home if nobody comes along to correct me.
It made Priority D for Adepts "optimal" so I started tinkering with builds based on that already.
The Priority D is optimal, I built Mercedes (From Here (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29883.msg522672#msg522672)) through Hero Lab Online and it actually came out with a lot more than the original build. On a side note, the HRO system has a bug that the Power Points = Magic Rating hasn't been updated yet, so the build is technically listed as illegal, until they update the rules set.
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Ah... but mysads still seem to be (intentionally) limited to their priority choice in magic points for adept powers...
p66 2nd printing "They must split their
Magic between spells and adept powers. They first
purchase adept powers up to a maximum of their
Magic attribute then multiply the remaining Magic
by 2 to determine their starting number of spell
choices. This uses the Magic value in the Priority
table, not as adjusted with Karma or adjustment
points (but it is reduced by Essence loss)."
So, do they gain an adept point when they subsequently gain a magic point? I'd say not but probably needs more careful reading... max adept points of 4 at char gen for a mysad (plus subsequent initiations dedicated to PP) is a reasonable balance I'd say!
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Mysad do not gain a PP unless they take the appropriate initiation post char-gen. You've got the char-gen rules quoted, and yes they are more restrictive. So there is more of an opportunity cost for Mysads now.
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Mysads have enough nice things. They don't need to be able to get everything AND still avoid investing in Magic priority, to boot.
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I agree whole heartedly!!! Mysads don't need any more boosts... just wanted to check that adepts can now legitimately spend adjustment points on magic/PP and it seems they can so that's a win (although I'm slightly sad that we'll be seeing almost all adepts back at magic 6 out of the gate, some variety would have been nice :o ::))
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I agree whole heartedly!!! Mysads don't need any more boosts... just wanted to check that adepts can now legitimately spend adjustment points on magic/PP and it seems they can so that's a win (although I'm slightly sad that we'll be seeing almost all adepts back at magic 6 out of the gate, some variety would have been nice :o ::))
Yeah, with the way adept powers are priced in 6we 4 PPs is actually quite viable. But now not only will every adept have 6 Magic, every adept will now have 2 of the 5 priorities locked in with no variety: Magic D, Attributes A.
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I agree whole heartedly!!! Mysads don't need any more boosts... just wanted to check that adepts can now legitimately spend adjustment points on magic/PP and it seems they can so that's a win (although I'm slightly sad that we'll be seeing almost all adepts back at magic 6 out of the gate, some variety would have been nice :o ::))
Yeah, with the way adept powers are priced in 6we 4 PPs is actually quite viable. But now not only will every adept have 6 Magic, every adept will now have 2 of the 5 priorities locked in with no variety: Magic D, Attributes A.
Metatype will be B frequently. C Skills, E Resources. Burn-outs will juggle that around. Social Adepts may want Skills B, but the Combat sorts will want the Edge and Magic.
E skills is honestly quite manageable in 6E with the changes to Skills.
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But now not only will every adept have 6 Magic, every adept will now have 2 of the 5 priorities locked in with no variety: Magic D, Attributes A.
Well pretty much everyone should have attributes A locked in. But hey, Magic D is a fine choice for anyone other than Mysads. Aspected conjurers are the same as adepts, all their chargen power gains can be bought. And for everyone else, well, spells are cheap as chips after the game begins.
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The key measurements of power in adepts are their power points. These points are used by adept characters to buy the powers that will enhance their abilities. Whenever adept characters gain or lose a point of Magic, they also gain or lose a power point. This means that an adept character who starts with a Magic rating of 4 also starts with 4 power points. Power points do not need to be spent when they are obtained; characters can hold on to them and use them when ready.
and p. 66:
"Adepts focus all of their magic inward, fueling their talents with their innate ability to pull mana in rather than channel it outward. Due to this physical connection to their magic, they cannot astrally project and only gain the ability to astrally perceive through training. Adepts have a pool of points equal to their Magic that they use to purchase adept powers. For more information on adepts, see p. 156."