Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: jtkirk22 on <04-14-20/0827:38>
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Hi,
CRB, p. 185:
Hosts have a general rating, which translates
into their Matrix attributes. These general ratings
are between 1 and 12. The ratings of these attributes
are usually (host rating), (host rating + 1),
(host rating + 2), and (host rating + 3), in any order
[...]
A hosts attributes are shared by itself and its
IC programs.
CRB, p. 186:
All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for
Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls.
In my opinion, this contradicts each other. Or am I wrong?
Kind regards!
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Their rolls are mostly HRx2, and the same for AR and CM. However, their defense rolls use the Host attributes, and each IC has its own attribute selection for defense rolls.
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OK, hereīs what I wanted to write first:
Not in this case, but itīs a very understandable misunderstanding: Itīs a super confusing use of the terms Attack (Attribute), rating and Attack rating ::)
Note that the first snippet does not really use the term Attack rating. Itīs talking about the "ratings" of the different Matrix Attributes (one of which is called Attack) in relation to the "rating" of the host. So the "rating" of the Hostīs Attack Attribute could be Host rating +1, +2 etc. BUT thatīs not the same as the "Attack rating" in the second snippet. Itīs a poor choice of words that gives that impression.
The second snippet talks about the actual mechanical term Attack rating. Thatīs the value that is used when the hostīs IC attacks a target to determine who gets Edge. So, the IC uses host rating*2 to perform the Attack and to determine Edge gain. If it hits, thatīs when the Attack Attribute of the host comes into play...
And thatīs when I looked into my nearby copy of the German rulebook to realize that the last sentence is, in fact, not true: IC damage is based on the host rating as well, and the Attack Attribute(!) is never ever even used.
And thatīs when I looked into the Errata file to find this:
"Replace the second sentence with the following: All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls." (so, the same sentence jtkirk22 posted)
And thatīs when I got mad-curious and looked into both the old and the updated version of the English Core rule book. And lo and behold!
Old version of the CRB: "All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls." (Again, the same sentence sjtkirk22 posted. The Errata doesnīt change anything about it!)
New version of the CRB: "All IC use Host Attack Rating and (Host Rating x 2) for Condition Monitor and most rolls. (So, the non-change in the Errata file turned into an actual change in the updated version).
*Rubs temples* The absolute effing state of editing...
So, assuming that the updated version of the CRB is the final one to go with:
- IC attacks with a dice pool of (host rating) x 2
- Uses the Hostīs Attack Attribute as the Attack rating to determine Edge gain (unlike personas, who use Attack + Sleaze)
- IC damage is based on the hostīs base rating (unlike Data Spikes, where itīs Attack/2).
Phew...
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Their rolls are mostly HRx2, and the same for AR and CM.
Not in the updated version, see above ::)
However, their defense rolls use the Host attributes, and each IC has its own attribute selection for defense rolls.
Pretty sure (but yes, itīs once again not crystal clear) that these are supposed to the defense rolls for the target of the IC. They all include a mental Attribute - which hosts donīt have - and the Matrix Attribute is related to the effect of the IC. F.i., only the Jammer IC uses the Attack Attribute here, because thatīs also the effect of it.
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Ok, this got chopped, edited, redone, edited again, and errata and still not made clear
Supposed to be ...
IC uses the Host matrix attributes whenever appropriate, but uses the Host general rating for any non-matrix skill or attribute when needed. This means IC use Host x 2 for condition monitor and most skill+attribute rolls including attack rolls.
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Yes, well... If we are talking house rules (but there is another thread for this already where I think house rules should be posted) then you basically have two options here I think;
- Skip the whole Host Rating +1, +2, +3, +4 mechanic and just house rule that all matrix attributes of a host is equal to host rating and then resolve everything according to regular cybercombat rules
- House rule that IC use Attack attribute of the host for calculating damage and use Attack and Sleaze attribute of the host for calculating Attack Rating according to regular cybercombat rules
Psst ... #2 is not a house rule and is how its supposed to work. Look for the change of wording in hopefully soon to be released errata.
(emphasis mine)
Edit: Bah, you beat me to it :-)
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(real world) Attack Rating, (matrix) Attack Rating, and (astral) Attack Rating all use the same acronym "AR" to describe three discrete values. And of course the acronym "AR" means any of those three things, PLUS the potential to mean the Augmented Reality matrix user mode.
Ditto for "DR" meaning any one of the Defense Ratings specific to one of Shadowrun's three worlds. Of course "DR" also is used to annotate another completely unrelated game mechanic: Device Rating.
And of course "Attack" is a matrix attribute, and when you talk about the rating of that matrix attribute it spawns all kinds of potential confusion with "Attack Rating" which is not the same thing as "Rating of the Attack Attribte".
Now with all that in mind, let's look at the language cited in the OP:
Hi,
CRB, p. 185:
Hosts have a general rating, which translates
into their Matrix attributes. These general ratings
are between 1 and 12. The ratings of these attributes
are usually (host rating), (host rating + 1),
(host rating + 2), and (host rating + 3), in any order
[...]
A hosts attributes are shared by itself and its
IC programs.
CRB, p. 186:
All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for
Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls.
In my opinion, this contradicts each other. Or am I wrong?
Kind regards!
As Banshee mentioned, page 185 is saying that IC shares the same ASDF stats as the Host that runs it. Matrix Attack Rating is NOT on the ASDF array, although it usually is derived from it by adding Attack + Sleaze. Usually. Page 186 is giving an exception to that "usually" by saying IC's Matrix Attack Rating is instead calculated via Host Rating + Host Rating.
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Absolutely marvelous, isnīt it? ::)
But again: The sentence in the most recent (to my knowledge) version of the CRB reads as:
"All IC use Host Attack Rating and (Host Rating x 2) for Condition Monitor and most rolls."
Of course, the first part of this sentence is ambigous, but I something tells me that Iīm supposed to read this as:
"All IC have an Attack Rating equal to the Hostīs Attack Attribute and (Host Rating x 2) for Condition Monitor and most rolls. please help me I got this editing job on craigslist how do I convert to pdf?"
Because so far, thatīs the only version of that sentence that would give the Attack Attribute of a host an actual purpose.
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Absolutely marvelous, isnīt it? ::)
But again: The sentence in the most recent (to my knowledge) version of the CRB reads as:
"All IC use Host Attack Rating and (Host Rating x 2) for Condition Monitor and most rolls."
Of course, the first part of this sentence is ambigous, but I something tells me that Iīm supposed to read this as:
"All IC have an Attack Rating equal to the Hostīs Attack Attribute and (Host Rating x 2) for Condition Monitor and most rolls. please help me I got this editing job on craigslist how do I convert to pdf?"
Because so far, thatīs the only version of that sentence that would give the Attack Attribute of a host an actual purpose.
Uh. I'm not following you. What the CRB does say makes sense. The text you're proposing doesn't do what you say it does. For the Host's Attack Rating to be relevant, the IC have to use it. (since Hosts don't attack people...) The errata'd language is correctly quoted there, and it establishes that you DO use the Host's Attack Rating (rather than Attack Attribute)
Ghost, now I'm doing it too. I confused your statement "Because so far, thatīs the only version of that sentence that would give the Attack Attribute of a host an actual purpose." for "Because so far, thatīs the only version of that sentence that would give the Attack Rating of a host an actual purpose."
Now that I'm on the same page with you... there's little (no?) value in giving a Host's Attack Attribute an "actual purpose". It contributes to Attack Rating. That's what it does. That's ALL it does. Now, yes, Hackers/Spiders have the extra role in evaluating Attack vs Sleaze when it comes to linked matrix actions, but IC don't use them. Certainly Hosts don't.
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Now that I'm on the same page with you... there's little (no?) value in giving a Host's Attack Attribute an "actual purpose". It contributes to Attack Rating. That's what it does. That's ALL it does. Now, yes, Hackers/Spiders have the extra role in evaluating Attack vs Sleaze when it comes to linked matrix actions, but IC don't use them. Certainly Hosts don't.
I mean, if thatīs supposed to be the reading her (Attack Rating of the IC is equal to the Attack Attribute of the Host), then the Attack Attribute of the host has an "actual purpose". Itīs somewhat small, but itīs there. And itīs consistent for all types of IC, even the ones that donīt deal damage.
If everything the IC does would only be derived from the hostīs base rating (as it was the case in the older version), then it would would actually be pointless to give the Host a seperate Attack Attribute.
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IC uses the attack RATING of the Host which is derived from the Hist attack ATTRIBUTE and sleaze. Also a spider can use the Host attributes so there is very much a reason for Host's to have Attack
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IC uses the attack RATING of the Host which is derived from the Hist attack ATTRIBUTE and sleaze. Also a spider can use the Host attributes so there is very much a reason for Host's to have Attack
Banshee slipped me so I nuked my entire response. But I want to point out the bolded part. It's a hugely important twist new to this edition.
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IC uses the attack RATING of the Host which is derived from the Hist attack ATTRIBUTE and sleaze. Also a spider can use the Host attributes so there is very much a reason for Host's to have Attack
Ah, OK. That means that the purpose of the Attack Attribute is tied with Sleaze. Huh... Yeah, but why not? Itīs consistent, and I obviously overthought the "all IC use Host Attack Rating..." thing. Still, that whole sentence could reals use some clarification, given how many misinterprations this has spawned.
Banshee slipped me so I nuked my entire response. But I want to point out the bolded part. It's a hugely important twist new to this edition.
It would be indeed, but is that really RAW? ???
AFAIK, Spiders can defend with the host attributes. More precisely, they can defend the Host, with a mix of their own mental stats and the hosts Matrix Attributes (if these are higher than their own). Granted, Attack is used in a defense pool in against one action (Jack out). Apart from this and the hostīs Attack rating (which is Sleaze+Attack according to Banshee), the hostīs Attack Attribute is not utilized RAW.
(Nothing against it, btw. It means that I can safe myself the time to monitor the spiderīs Matrix Attributes seperately as long as they are not vastly better than the host or the spider doesnīt "pursuit" the hacker outside the hosts)
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IC uses the attack RATING of the Host which is derived from the Hist attack ATTRIBUTE and sleaze. Also a spider can use the Host attributes so there is very much a reason for Host's to have Attack
Ah, OK. That means that the purpose of the Attack Attribute is tied with Sleaze. Huh... Yeah, but why not? Itīs consistent, and I obviously overthought the "all IC use Host Attack Rating..." thing. Still, that whole sentence could reals use some clarification, given how many misinterprations this has spawned.
Banshee slipped me so I nuked my entire response. But I want to point out the bolded part. It's a hugely important twist new to this edition.
It would be indeed, but is that really RAW? ???
AFAIK, Spiders can defend with the host attributes. More precisely, they can defend the Host, with a mix of their own mental stats and the hosts Matrix Attributes (if these are higher than their own). Granted, Attack is used in a defense pool in against one action (Jack out). Apart from this and the hostīs Attack rating (which is Sleaze+Attack according to Banshee), the hostīs Attack Attribute is not utilized RAW.
(Nothing against it, btw. It means that I can safe myself the time to monitor the spiderīs Matrix Attributes seperately as long as they are not vastly better than the host or the spider doesnīt "pursuit" the hacker outside the hosts)
Yes it's technically RAW. I don't have my books currently available to quote page numbers.
Matrix Attack Rating is defined as Attack+Sleaze ... thats not just for Deckers.
Also granted using the word "defend" is not the best choice... in my defense matrix attributes are exclusively used only passively or defensively.
The purpose of allowing spiders to use the host was to allow a GM to track less gear and only need to worry about the attributes and skills of a spider. From an "in universe" point of view this allows corporations to higher spiders with less technical investment.
I imagine this to manifest in a few ways ... only "offsite" spiders will have decks and jacks, and if all "onsite" most likely only one spider (assuming a host that maintains on-site spiders also has more than one) would have a deck and/or jack
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I forget and don't have a book at hand: do any IC use Attack in their defense roll?
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I forget and don't have a book at hand: do any IC use Attack in their defense roll?
No ... in fact I don't think Attack is used in any roll for anything unless something got changed from what I wrote and I didn't catch it.. It's always passive.... setting AR, linked actions, and cybercombat damage.
EDIT: as Xenon points out there is at least one time where Attack is rolled, so there may be a few times here and there that are nonstandard... they should be called out specifically when that is the case.
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Wait.... The listed "Defense roll" under each IC is what YOU roll when IC attacking YOU... isn't it?
If you take a matrix action then the target will always defend with whatever attributes the matrix action list. No matter if the target is a device, spider or IC. For example if you Data Spike Killer IC then Killer IC will oppose the test with Data Processing and and Firewall that the network provide.
If Killer IC attack you, however, then you will defend against it with whatever is listed as defense under the specific IC (in this case Intuition + Firewall).
Having said that. When Jammer IC is attacking you (trying to reduce your Attack Attribute) then you will defend with your Willpower + your Attack Attribute.
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Matrix Attack Rating is defined as Attack+Sleaze ... thats not just for Deckers.
No contest here, I just misinterpreted the line in the current CRB version ;)
However: Spiders being able to use host attributes instead of own Matrix Attributes for their own active Matrix tests: I think thatīs a good thing, but I canīt find anything in the written rules that supports this. P. 179 comes closest: "A persona actively defending for a device or host can use the other pool with the device or host attributes." But this reads as if itīs meant for defense tests only - and more precisely, tests where two different pools are available.
And true, most uses of Matrix Attributes are passive. But especially Attack is a bit of an outlier here. Itīs only used in the defense pool of Jack out, meaning it "protects" you (or a host) against the targets getting out of your link-lock. Apart from that, its used to calculate the Attack rating and the base damage of a the Matrix Spike attack (but no other attack!).
I forget and don't have a book at hand: do any IC use Attack in their defense roll?
The Jammer IC lists "Defense: Willpower + Attack", but thatīs not the defense pool of the IC, itīs the defense pool if its victim. Attack is used here because the Jammer IC ... erm ... attacks the Attack Attribute :P (Itīs the same with the other Attribute-Reducing types of IC, btw. They also worked the same in 5th Edition).
If Iīm not severely mistaken, IC defends itself with whatever pool is determined by the Matrix Action used against it. So, a Tar Baby IC (or the host its running on? Makes no practical difference here) would "defend" with Attack + Data Processing against an enemy hacker it has link-logged if the hacker wants to slip away with a Jack out action.
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Wait.... The listed "Defense roll" under each IC is what YOU roll when IC attacking YOU... isn't it?
Correct ... I didn't think anyone was saying otherwise... I assumed they were asking more of "is attack ever used in a defense roll?"
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Matrix Attack Rating is defined as Attack+Sleaze ... thats not just for Deckers.
No contest here, I just misinterpreted the line in the current CRB version ;)
However: Spiders being able to use host attributes instead of own Matrix Attributes for their own active Matrix tests: I think thatīs a good thing, but I canīt find anything in the written rules that supports this. P. 179 comes closest: "A persona actively defending for a device or host can use the other pool with the device or host attributes." But this reads as if itīs meant for defense tests only - and more precisely, tests where two different pools are available.
And true, most uses of Matrix Attributes are passive. But especially Attack is a bit of an outlier here. Itīs only used in the defense pool of Jack out, meaning it "protects" you (or a host) against the targets getting out of your link-lock. Apart from that, its used to calculate the Attack rating and the base damage of a the Matrix Spike attack (but no other attack!).
I forget and don't have a book at hand: do any IC use Attack in their defense roll?
The Jammer IC lists "Defense: Willpower + Attack", but thatīs not the defense pool of the IC, itīs the defense pool if its victim. Attack is used here because the Jammer IC ... erm ... attacks the Attack Attribute :P (Itīs the same with the other Attribute-Reducing types of IC, btw. They also worked the same in 5th Edition).
If Iīm not severely mistaken, IC defends itself with whatever pool is determined by the Matrix Action used against it. So, a Tar Baby IC (or the host its running on? Makes no practical difference here) would "defend" with Attack + Data Processing against an enemy hacker it has link-logged if the hacker wants to slip away with a Jack out action.
Well as I said not able to check my books to make sure right now, but it should say specifically that spiders can use the host attributes to defend.
Building on that I'm saying it was poor word choice and should just say "use".
But in defense of using defend instead of use I meant that at least 99% of the time a matrix attribute is either passive (not used in a dice roll ... attack being a prime example of this) or defensive (only used in an opposed roll when targeted by an action).
End result... yes it needs cleaned up, but it still technically RAW
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Ah then I completely misunderstood what Defense Roll meant.
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Thanks for clarification. Seems like this thread was worth it. ;)
Just to be absolutely sure (my English is not the best and I'm afraid to have missed/misunderstood something):
- Host Attributes (A/S/D/F) = Host rating +1/+2/+3
- IC Condition Monitor = Host rating x 2
- IC Initiative = Hosts DP x 2 + 3D6
- IC Attack rating (for determining Edge) = Host's Attack Rating (Attack + Sleaze attribute of the Host)
- IC Attack Pool: = Host rating x 2
- IC Damage =
Host rating x 2 (which is supposed to count as most rolls - p. 186??) - See description of IC program. - IC Defense rating (for determining Edge) = Host's Defense Rating (Data Processing + Firewall attribute of the Host)
- IC Defense Pool (resisting matrix damage) = Host's Firewall-Attribute
- IC other rolls (dice pools) = Host rating x 2 (which is supposed to count as most rolls - p. 186)
Is this right?
Thanks in advance!
EDIT: Edited stats...
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Thanks for clarification. Seems like this thread was worth it. ;)
Just to be absolutely sure (my English is not the best and I'm afraid to have missed/misunderstood something):
- Host Attributes (A/S/D/F) = Host rating +1/+2/+3
- IC ATTACK rating (for determining Edge) = Host Attack Rating (Attack + Sleaze attribute of the Host)
- IC Condition Monitor = Host rating x 2
- IC "most rolls" (dice pools) = Host rating x 2
- IC Damage = Host rating x 2 (which is supposed to count as most rolls - p. 186??)
- IC Initiative =[Hosts DP x 2] + 3D6
Is this right?
Thanks in advance!
Almost, I think:
The IC rolls with Host rating x 2 to attack, but the base damage of the attack is just the host ratin, as noted individually for each IC that deals damage. (Thatīs probably what you meant anyways, thatīs a "just in case" clarification ;))
If by IC Damage you mean the roll that IC uses do soak Matrix damage: Matrix damage is resisted with Firewall, I think that goes for IC as well (using the Firewall Attribute of the host, of course).
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Yep, agreement with everything except "IC Damage". Not sure what you're getting at there, jtkirk22.
Damage that IC dishes out? That's covered on pgs 186-187 and is different for each type of IC. In fact, some IC doesn't even deal any damage.
Damage that IC suffers? That's covered by the various attack one might make on the IC. IC is no different than any other kind of target when it comes to hostile/offensive/damaging actions you might make. If you Data Spike the Black IC, it rolls Data Processing + Firewall just as anyone/anything else would. Of course, IC just uses the Host's stats to resist actions/damage.
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Thank you both for your help! :) Updated my previous post:
- Host Attributes (A/S/D/F) = Host rating +1/+2/+3
- IC Condition Monitor = Host rating x 2
- IC Initiative = Hosts DP x 2 + 3D6
- IC Attack rating (for determining Edge) = Host's Attack Rating (Attack + Sleaze attribute of the Host)
- IC Attack Pool: = Host rating x 2
- IC Damage =
Host rating x 2 (which is supposed to count as most rolls - p. 186??) - See description of IC program. - IC Defense rating (for determining Edge) = Host's Defense Rating (Data Processing + Firewall attribute of the Host)
- IC Defense Pool (resisting matrix damage) = Host's Firewall-Attribute
- IC other rolls (dice pools) = Host rating x 2 (which is supposed to count as most rolls - p. 186)
Not sure what you're getting at there, jtkirk22.
Well, actually I just didn't realize there is specific damage mentioned in the description of IC programs. I am so new to these rules that I sometimes mix up things or forget about them (again). ;)
Just a suggestion: For new players it would be REALLY helpful to have more lists in the CRB like the one I created, especially in cases, in which stats are set together so difficultly. A small list covering those stats would have made it really easy to understand. And a "character sheet" in the apendix concerning Hosts and IC stats (with small infos) would be as well. A blank table where you can write down the stats. Not much of effort, but I am sure a lot of people didn't/don't get this right.
@Stainless: Would you mind, having a last quick view on my character? ;D ::)