[Banshee]

I forget and don't have a book at hand: do any IC use Attack in their defense roll?

No ... in fact I don't think Attack is used in any roll for anything unless something got changed from what I wrote and I didn't catch it.. It's always passive.... setting AR, linked actions, and cybercombat damage.

EDIT: as Xenon points out there is at least one time where Attack is rolled, so there may be a few times here and there that are nonstandard... they should be called out specifically when that is the case.

[Xenon]

Wait.... The listed "Defense roll" under each IC is what YOU roll when IC attacking YOU... isn't it?

If you take a matrix action then the target will always defend with whatever attributes the matrix action list. No matter if the target is a device, spider or IC. For example if you Data Spike Killer IC then Killer IC will oppose the test with Data Processing and and Firewall that the network provide.

If Killer IC attack you, however, then you will defend against it with whatever is listed as defense under the specific IC (in this case Intuition + Firewall).


Having said that. When Jammer IC is attacking you (trying to reduce your Attack Attribute) then you will defend with your Willpower + your Attack Attribute.

[Finstersang]

Matrix Attack Rating is defined as Attack+Sleaze ... thats not just for Deckers.

No contest here, I just misinterpreted the line in the current CRB version 

However: Spiders being able to use host attributes instead of own Matrix Attributes for their own active Matrix tests: I think that´s a good thing, but I can´t find anything in the written rules that supports this. P. 179 comes closest: "A persona actively defending for a device or host can use the other pool with the device or host attributes." But this reads as if it´s meant for defense tests only - and more precisely, tests where two different pools are available.

And true, most uses of Matrix Attributes are passive. But especially Attack is a bit of an outlier here. It´s only used in the defense pool of Jack out, meaning it "protects" you (or a host) against the targets getting out of your link-lock. Apart from that, its used to calculate the Attack rating and the base damage of a the Matrix Spike attack (but no other attack!).

I forget and don't have a book at hand: do any IC use Attack in their defense roll?

The Jammer IC lists "Defense: Willpower + Attack", but that´s not the defense pool of the IC, it´s the defense pool if its victim. Attack is used here because the Jammer IC ... erm ... attacks the Attack Attribute    (It´s the same with the other Attribute-Reducing types of IC, btw. They also worked the same in 5th Edition).

If I´m not severely mistaken, IC defends itself with whatever pool is determined by the Matrix Action used against it. So, a Tar Baby IC (or the host its running on? Makes no practical difference here) would "defend" with Attack + Data Processing against an enemy hacker it has link-logged if the hacker wants to slip away with a Jack out action.   

[Banshee]

Wait.... The listed "Defense roll" under each IC is what YOU roll when IC attacking YOU... isn't it?

Correct ... I didn't think anyone was saying otherwise... I assumed they were asking more of "is attack ever used in a defense roll?"

[Banshee]

Matrix Attack Rating is defined as Attack+Sleaze ... thats not just for Deckers.

No contest here, I just misinterpreted the line in the current CRB version 

However: Spiders being able to use host attributes instead of own Matrix Attributes for their own active Matrix tests: I think that´s a good thing, but I can´t find anything in the written rules that supports this. P. 179 comes closest: "A persona actively defending for a device or host can use the other pool with the device or host attributes." But this reads as if it´s meant for defense tests only - and more precisely, tests where two different pools are available.

And true, most uses of Matrix Attributes are passive. But especially Attack is a bit of an outlier here. It´s only used in the defense pool of Jack out, meaning it "protects" you (or a host) against the targets getting out of your link-lock. Apart from that, its used to calculate the Attack rating and the base damage of a the Matrix Spike attack (but no other attack!).

I forget and don't have a book at hand: do any IC use Attack in their defense roll?

The Jammer IC lists "Defense: Willpower + Attack", but that´s not the defense pool of the IC, it´s the defense pool if its victim. Attack is used here because the Jammer IC ... erm ... attacks the Attack Attribute    (It´s the same with the other Attribute-Reducing types of IC, btw. They also worked the same in 5th Edition).

If I´m not severely mistaken, IC defends itself with whatever pool is determined by the Matrix Action used against it. So, a Tar Baby IC (or the host its running on? Makes no practical difference here) would "defend" with Attack + Data Processing against an enemy hacker it has link-logged if the hacker wants to slip away with a Jack out action.

Well as I said not able to check my books to make sure right now, but it should say specifically that spiders can use the host attributes to defend.

Building on that I'm saying it was poor word choice and should just say "use".

But in defense of using defend instead of use I meant that at least 99% of the time a matrix attribute is either passive (not used in a dice roll ... attack being a prime example of this) or defensive (only used in an opposed roll when targeted by an action).

End result... yes it needs cleaned up, but it still technically RAW

[Michael Chandra]

Ah then I completely misunderstood what Defense Roll meant.

[jtkirk22]

Thanks for clarification. Seems like this thread was worth it.

Just to be absolutely sure (my English is not the best and I'm afraid to have missed/misunderstood something):

• Host Attributes (A/S/D/F) = Host rating +1/+2/+3
• IC Condition Monitor = Host rating x 2
• IC Initiative = Host’s DP x 2 + 3D6
• IC Attack rating (for determining Edge) = Host's Attack Rating (Attack + Sleaze attribute of the Host)
• IC Attack Pool: = Host rating x 2
• IC Damage = Host rating x 2 (which is supposed to count as „most rolls“ - p. 186??) - See description of IC program.
• IC Defense rating (for determining Edge) = Host's Defense Rating (Data Processing + Firewall attribute of the Host)
• IC Defense Pool (resisting matrix damage) = Host's Firewall-Attribute
• IC other rolls (dice pools) = Host rating x 2 (which is supposed to count as „most rolls“ - p. 186)

Is this right?

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: Edited stats...

[Finstersang]

Thanks for clarification. Seems like this thread was worth it.

Just to be absolutely sure (my English is not the best and I'm afraid to have missed/misunderstood something):

• Host Attributes (A/S/D/F) = Host rating +1/+2/+3
• IC ATTACK rating (for determining Edge) = Host Attack Rating (Attack + Sleaze attribute of the Host)
• IC Condition Monitor = Host rating x 2
• IC "most rolls" (dice pools) = Host rating x 2
• IC Damage = Host rating x 2 (which is supposed to count as „most rolls“ - p. 186??)
• IC Initiative =[Host’s DP x 2] + 3D6

Is this right?

Thanks in advance!

Almost, I think:

The IC rolls with Host rating x 2 to attack, but the base damage of the attack is just the host ratin, as noted individually for each IC that deals damage. (That´s probably what you meant anyways, that´s a "just in case" clarification  )

If by IC Damage you mean the roll that IC uses do soak Matrix damage: Matrix damage is resisted with Firewall, I think that goes for IC as well (using the Firewall Attribute of the host, of course).

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yep, agreement with everything except "IC Damage".  Not sure what you're getting at there, jtkirk22.

Damage that IC dishes out?  That's covered on pgs 186-187 and is different for each type of IC.  In fact, some IC doesn't even deal any damage.

Damage that IC suffers?  That's covered by the various attack one might make on the IC.  IC is no different than any other kind of target when it comes to hostile/offensive/damaging actions you might make.  If you Data Spike the Black IC, it rolls Data Processing + Firewall just as anyone/anything else would.  Of course, IC just uses the Host's stats to resist actions/damage.

[jtkirk22]

Thank you both for your help! Updated my previous post:

• Host Attributes (A/S/D/F) = Host rating +1/+2/+3
• IC Condition Monitor = Host rating x 2
• IC Initiative = Host’s DP x 2 + 3D6
• IC Attack rating (for determining Edge) = Host's Attack Rating (Attack + Sleaze attribute of the Host)
• IC Attack Pool: = Host rating x 2
• IC Damage = Host rating x 2 (which is supposed to count as „most rolls“ - p. 186??) - See description of IC program.
• IC Defense rating (for determining Edge) = Host's Defense Rating (Data Processing + Firewall attribute of the Host)
• IC Defense Pool (resisting matrix damage) = Host's Firewall-Attribute
• IC other rolls (dice pools) = Host rating x 2 (which is supposed to count as „most rolls“ - p. 186)

Not sure what you're getting at there, jtkirk22.

Well, actually I just didn't realize there is specific damage mentioned in the description of IC programs. I am so new to these rules that I sometimes mix up things or forget about them (again).

Just a suggestion: For new players it would be REALLY helpful to have more lists in the CRB like the one I created, especially in cases, in which stats are set together so difficultly. A small list covering those stats would have made it really easy to understand. And a "character sheet" in the apendix concerning Hosts and IC stats (with small infos) would be as well. A blank table where you can write down the stats. Not much of effort, but I am sure a lot of people didn't/don't get this right.

@Stainless: Would you mind, having a last quick view on my character?