Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: savaze on <03-11-11/0500:37>
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So I just bought War!, Mil Spec Tech, and This Old Drone... I just skimmed through War and came to the gear section where it starts listing weapon calibers. Since when did SR start doing that or is that the fluff from days of old integrated into the game mechanics?
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So I just bought War!, Mil Spec Tech, and This Old Drone... I just skimmed through War and came to the gear section where it starts listing weapon calibers. Since when did SR start doing that or is that the fluff from days of old integrated into the game mechanics?
Fluff.
Unless you start using the 'High Power Chambering' Weapon Quality with associated High-Power ammunition (Both from War!) then weapon caliber is pretty much irrelevant between weapon types.
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There's also the option to have ammunition be compatible between specific gun types. They don't mention calibers in the weapon descriptions (like they used to), but you can decide to allow it -- for instance, you could rule that the Ares Predator and the Ingram Smartgun use the same type of ammo.
The default rule -- where ammo is specific for weapon categories -- is just a simple abstraction.
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This has always been a major issue for me and annoys me
But I'm a Gun Nut, and know that the average person couldn't care less about 10mm Automatic, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.
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Yep. It's one of those "make it as complicated as your players will tolerate" things. If your group has some kindred gun-nuts in it, and they can help it make sense for the rest, then jump right in and pick a caliber for each gun in the catalog. Maybe even give special modifiers to some types. It'd make sense, anyway.
Then again, if they have trouble with the "one ammo type per weapon class" idea, and lose track at that level, you may have to scale it back to "ammo is ammo".
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I'm happy that my group is at least willing to say, "Guns need ammo to work.".
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;D
[insert laughter here]
+1.
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I think my biggest gripe with the round being listed is that it's saying that a 60 year old cartridge IRL, 120 years old in SR, is still the current favorite. In US military circles the argument right now is whether to keep two rifle ammunition types (those with ARs/5.56 & DMRs and light machine gunners/7.62) for man portable weapons, barring snipers, or go one caliber to rule them all. There are more accurate and damaging cartridges in use IRL that weight less than the 7.62.
On top of that we're now talking caseless ammo that wouldn't use the same moniker as cased ammo, since cased ammo uses identifiers that aren't necessarily referring to caliber, but more so to formula and length (e.g. any .35 caliber round: 9mm PA & 9mm FEDERAL & 9mm MAKROV & 9mm DILLON; or .30 caliber round: .308 series & 7.62x39 & 7.62x51 & 7.62x54R & .30-06; or .40 caliber: .40 S&W & 10mm; or .45 caliber: .45 ACP & .45 LC; it gets even crazier when you get into the .28 caliber/7mm rounds).
Maybe after first inducting caseless ammo conversion kits would be requested and obnoxious amounts caseless varieties would exist (only if there was a market for it), but the reality of it would be that it's a new round and if it proved itself everybody would want a new firearm chambered in it. My example would be the 1800's muzzle loading conversion to cased ammo, there was only a few calibers at that point because having cased ammo simplified the process of making the weapons and not everybody was making ammo. Fast forward ~150 years to when caseless was made wide spread and manufacturing and engineering isn't the problem, the issue would be different rounds to do the needed things and the first company that mastered and marketed the formula would set the caliber standards, I'm assuming Ares. SR listed them as the different firearm classification (e.g. holdout, light pistol, heavy pistol, etc) and arguably many of these classifications are the same caliber round, realistically they'd probably market the rounds as the classification. I think the fluff text would have been better off saying 7.62 CR (caseless rifle) or even 7.62 Ares (or whichever company pwned the market with it).
I'm just grumpy because of the ancient label on something so far in the future that I highly doubt something that is largely considered dated, but not ineffective now, would be the standard 60 years from now...
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I'm one of those "Guns needs ammo to work" types, I do try to get my players to differentiate between heavy pistol ammo and smg ammo, but even if they messed that up, I wouldn't mind too much, its just not important enough to warrant the time and effort in most of my campaigns.
Now, if my group was stuck in the jungle without any chance of resupply, its one of those situations I would pay closer attention to it so they don't take their extra heavy pistol ammo to load up their LMG, (or vice versa) but even then, I would most likely monitor food and water supply more closely.
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I'm one of those "Guns needs ammo to work" types, I do try to get my players to differentiate between heavy pistol ammo and smg ammo, but even if they messed that up, I wouldn't mind too much, its just not important enough to warrant the time and effort in most of my campaigns.
Now, if my group was stuck in the jungle without any chance of resupply, its one of those situations I would pay closer attention to it so they don't take their extra heavy pistol ammo to load up their LMG, (or vice versa) but even then, I would most likely monitor food and water supply more closely.
When ever I've played ammo's always left fairly simple, cased/CL and weapon type.
I'm probably the only person that would have had my hopes and dreams smashed by reading that specific fluff in the text...
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Back in SR1 they had to introduce max-power ammo to heavy pistols stand out or something. In SR2 there was a notice that all heavy pistols had max-power ammo factored in.
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I've told my group that ammo works like this, just to make things easier: "They standardized the sizes for more firearms. Holdouts all use the same ammo. Light Pistols and Machine Pistols use the same ammo. Heavy Pistols and SMGs use the same ammo. Shotguns are all 12 Gauge. Hunting Rifles use different ammo depending on their damage, but the same damage, the same ammo. Assault Rifles and LMGs are standardized with ammo. MMGs and HMGs each have their own ammo. Magazines, NOT CLIPS, are not interchangeable. They all use Caseless Ammo, save for Hunting Rifles, which still use Brass Cases. Revolvers are the exception to all of those rules, and also use cased ammo."
Their eyes started to lose focus after "Machine Pistol". :'( So, hopefully this'll help you guys.
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Back in SR1 they had to introduce max-power ammo to heavy pistols stand out or something. In SR2 there was a notice that all heavy pistols had max-power ammo factored in.
Yes was introduced in Street Samurai (1st ed version) and then removed in 2nd ed. But that was more a matter of a different type of ammo (like APDS, HE etc) not a matter of calibre.
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I just want to say for the record that the characters in my stories have firearms that I know the calibers are. If anyone cares, I'll list them all...
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Go for it, I'm interested on the subject. I know the P93 and 5-7 use the same ammo 5.7mm. I'm away from book for the rest.
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NATO attempt to replace 9x19mm standard in SMG started around 1990. It resulted in FN Herstal introducing the 5.7x28mm in 1990, and H&K the 4.6x30mm in 1999. Indeed, both companies patented their new caliber. And it never went anywhere past comparative tests as the Geman government vetoed on H&K losing the competition.
New calibers may emerge, but getting new standard calibers will be a different story. Especially given how megacorporations work in SR. Maybe redesigning existing calibers, like the US Army did with the M855A1 5.56x45mm round, is the way to go.
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OK. Jon "Money" Johnson uses .45 ACCP (Automatic Colt Caseless Pistol) for his Heavy Pistols (Usually Browning Ultra-Powers with barrel screws to accept a silencer, housing a flash suppressor to deal with the short barrel and to protect the threading for the silencer, and the laser sight replaced by a smartgun link) and SMGs (Usually various types of Colt Cobras) almost exclusively. He likes the stopping power of the heavy round, and is a major traditionalist. His Light Pistols (Which he wears with his housecoats) are in .32 ACCP, and he keeps a Snub-Nosed Revolver in every Butter Keeper in every fridge he has at every safehouse/squat that's in .38 S&W Special, usually loaded with special rounds (EX-ex being a favorite.). Matilda, his customized AK-97 is in 5.56mm Caseless. He also has a collection of old hunting rifles in cased calibers, with a love for an SMLE No. 4 in .303 British Service, a Sniper-Grade Kar-98K in 7.92mm Mauser, and a Holland and Holland Royal Express Double Rifle in .600 Nitro Express.
Nas carries a S&W M650 revolver (Same stats as a Ruger Super Warhawk) in .500 S&W, a titanium-alloy cylinder allows it to hold 6 rounds instead of 5 that the S&W M500 currently has (As it's a revolver, it still uses cased ammo, as I can't figure out how a cylinder can hold onto caseless ammo yet.). He also has a pair of customized Ceska Black Scorpions in .30 Carbine Caseless. Other than that, he has whatever he's driving, which is beyond caliber. (Unless it's an old Dodge Caliber, but that's a different story.). He doesn't know much about firearms beyond civilian hunting rifles and pistols (He knows he carries a revolver rather than an automatic) from having grown up on a farm in Texas, and picked up "Military Gear" that a Shadowrunner contact of his in Denver suggested in both type and caliber, and has stayed with the same ever since. (He calls his Machine Pistols "Machine Guns" for example, which we all know is wrong, but a lot of people that don't know about military firearms will do for anything that doesn't look like a pistol or bolt-action rifle. He also falls for the "Clip" references, and a few other "No-Nos" for proper firearms nomenclature. It can be hard writing for him at times.).
The Accountant From Hell, John Q. Public (AKA: The Suit), uses 10mm Caseless as he loves the numerical perfection of a single decimetre, and uses it for his heavy pistol (A customized Colt Government 2066 he calls "The Income Statement") and SMG (A stock Beretta Model 70.). "The Great Balancer" is in 5.45mm Caseless, which disgusts him to no end being "Off", and he uses it to "Balance the Books" in serious combat only. He has a Colt Asp in .38 S&W Special with EX-ex Rounds and a couple of speedloaders in his Safehouse that stays in a bed holster, hanging off his UCAS Army-Surplus Cot.
Aside from the revolvers, historical weapons, and 10mm caseless everything I did here was conjecture. I wanted something odd and off for Nas, and figured that .30 Carbine might be popular enough to warrant a caseless version still.
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While we wait for that list...
Anyone here familiar enough with ballistics and such to tell us if different caliber bullets would have their own modifiers? Or are the differences small enough where we could continue treating all "regular" ammo the same?
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Simple answer, they should yeah. There are huge differences between calibers, look up the difference between a 9mm and a 10mm for example.
For an ingame standpoint however it would be a nightmare. I find the current system acceptable.
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Yeah, this definitely falls into the category of "make it only as complicated as your players like". I've got a couple gun-nuts in my group, so I can use the current rules on ammo without them breaking a sweat; the others, I'm not so sure on, so I leave it at that.
It's like the Custom Lifestyle rules in Runner's Companion. I'd like to trot them out, but I don't yet know if my players are interested in that level of detail.
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Go for it, I'm interested on the subject. I know the P93 and 5-7 use the same ammo 5.7mm. I'm away from book for the rest.
You meant the P90...
Back in SR1 they had to introduce max-power ammo to heavy pistols stand out or something. In SR2 there was a notice that all heavy pistols had max-power ammo factored in.
Yes was introduced in Street Samurai (1st ed version) and then removed in 2nd ed. But that was more a matter of a different type of ammo (like APDS, HE etc) not a matter of calibre.
It seemed like SR was trying to feel out how they wanted to do ammo down the editions, but I think it's fine how it is now.
NATO attempt to replace 9x19mm standard in SMG started around 1990. It resulted in FN Herstal introducing the 5.7x28mm in 1990, and H&K the 4.6x30mm in 1999. Indeed, both companies patented their new caliber. And it never went anywhere past comparative tests as the Geman government vetoed on H&K losing the competition.
New calibers may emerge, but getting new standard calibers will be a different story. Especially given how megacorporations work in SR. Maybe redesigning existing calibers, like the US Army did with the M855A1 5.56x45mm round, is the way to go.
The 9mm NATO is the 9x19mm LUGER Parabellum, also known as the 9mm PA... Currently the only thing stopping most countries from ditching the inefficient 5.56/9mm and the older 7.62 is purely politics.
Because of political deals the military still has the equipment from the lowest bidder at the highest price. The AR's they're using now cost less than half on the civilian market (MSRP for name brand) of what the military pays for them and they're using off brand. The Army still uses the Kiowa, even though it was considered to be a PoS in Vietnam. None of the pilots back then wanted to fly in it, they only used them to shuttle dignitaries and visiting brass back then. Now they are even worse compared to modern civilian counterparts (most of the time they can't even take off in Afghanistan - when they can it only low level flying, which means they don't do much). Even now the military pays a premium to keep Vietnam era 'computers' that weigh over 300lbs in them. My cell phone could power every Kiowa on any given base... Don't even get me started on the IBA...
History Lesson
The 5.56 was originally designed as a tumbler to make up for it's smaller damage profile, that way it could hit about as hard as the 7.62 it was replacing. Originally the US military had no intention of using the M-16 series. They had a 'new-age' weapon in the works with their R&D department because of the post Korean war results. The M-16 came into use because an Air Force General thought it looked cool and all sci-fi'ish so he requisitioned a few to mess around with. They ended up being considered as garrison defense only weapons, aka not good enough for field use. Vietnam broke out and the R&D weapon was in testing and they were having trouble getting all the kinks out, but there was this company that had a few of their Buck Rogers looking rifles already in use. So someone made a decision to field a larger quantity, and long story put very shortly the soldiers thought it looked cool, even though it performed poorly in realistic situations, and they could carry a lot more ammo with the little 5.56 rounds. So it stuck and the US bullied it's new round into the NATO standard with a lot of fuss from other nations.
40 years later the US has engineered the tumbling aspect out in order to make the round more consistently accurate, which is still questionable (both through US and British field reports and laboratory tests). Now the current issue 5.56 is armor piercing and meant for longer ranges, but those hit by the round don't know they've been hit unless they have a dozen rounds in them or a head shot is scored.
The argument with the 7.62 is that it's too heavy/bulky to the point that a soldier can carry 4x as many rounds of the 5.56. It's also argued that it's overkill for the job it's suppose to be doing under the intent of NATO rules, wounding not killing (I was in a Laws of War class taught by the JAG and we got into some crazy discussions on whats considered legal killing in a conflict).
The 9mm was adopted for the same reason the 5.56 was, it's lighter and meant to wound not kill. The 9mm is also on e of the only rounds I've seen that has trouble penetrating the skull... I saw the results of a head shot where it it penetrated the skin, hit the skull, deflected, then traveled around the skull - under the skin, and then exited through the back with the victim having some weird under the skin burns and a massive headache with no lasting damage.
As time has gone by the whole mentality of wounding a person takes three out of the battle (one wounded and two to haul them off) isn't being followed or desired in the case of countering gorilla warfare. There is a big interest, in the US military, in the 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 Grendel. Recently the Special Forces sent back all of their SCAR mk 16 parts (5.56) and said they'll keep all the mk 17 (7.62) while they wait for the parts to chamber it in 6.8. The Infantry requested that the ACR was to come standard 5.56/6.8/7.62 when that weapon was high in the to get list, though they haven't gotten clearance for it yet - if they ever will, politics.
Just because NATO uses preset rounds doesn't mean NATO nations are using them as well, Russia immediately comes to mind.
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One idea I've been considering is abstracting things even further. A flat monthly fee that basically says "you have ready access to X ammo for your carried small arms at any given moment, and if you take the time to go back to your supply you can triple that". X being like 3-5 clips, I dunno yet.
Any ammo beyond that, or ammo for specialty weapons, costs as normal.
-k
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One idea I've been considering is abstracting things even further. A flat monthly fee that basically says "you have ready access to X ammo for your carried small arms at any given moment, and if you take the time to go back to your supply you can triple that". X being like 3-5 clips, I dunno yet.
Any ammo beyond that, or ammo for specialty weapons, costs as normal.
-k
I've often done that. It just keeps bookkeeping easier. Keep track of ammo expenditures during the game just on the off chance someone has to spend an action changing a magazine or whatever, but other than that we just fold (basic, regular) ammo costs into Lifestyle and call it a day.
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You should see my games. The ammo bookkeeping makes my head throb. Factor in that the damn Weapon Specialist makes her own ammo half the time and......god, my head.
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You should see my games. The ammo bookkeeping makes my head throb. Factor in that the damn Weapon Specialist makes her own ammo half the time and......god, my head.
Now, that kind of thing I can get behind.
Although, making caseless ammo would be a major pain. Reloading Brass, however...
Hmmmmmmmm, that's something missing from the Modification Rules: Brass Catcher.
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If you've got some players who have no trouble tracking ammo, but some that are on the fence, make something to help. What I do is make a document in Word/OpenOffice, the size of an index card, with a space to note the type of ammo in a clip, its mods, and a row of boxes to mark off shots. Make several such rows on one card, and they can have their whole ammo supply accounted for easily.
For single-shot or semi-auto guns, it's not that big a deal, but for the guys who like their SMGs and assault rifles, that little cheat-sheet is invaluable.
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I used the "All Flesh Must Be Eaten" ammo counter in a number of different games.
I guess I'd have to make something similar for Shadowrun, as the magazine sizes are much different. Standardized Ammo, Non-Standardized Magazines. Smart move on the Megas.
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First off, pimping this link:
http://www.dasspielunker.com/page8.php?view=productListPage&category=1
We have Ares Predator: http://www.dasspielunker.com/page8.php?view=productPage&product=14&category=4
Don't think they would quite cover all SR guns, since SR's guns have some really wonky ammo capacities, but...
As for how we handle ammo in games... Depends on the game. For most, I play pretty fast and loose. If my players can buy a bulk of 1000 rounds, I tell them they don;t have to worry too much about tracking ammo overall, just keeping track of how many rounds are in their magazines. If tehy don't, or if they are using expensive and hard to get specialty ammo, they have to keep closer track of it then.
Also, Shadowrun really needs to finally fix it's terminology. There's an amusing line from a Behind the Scenes of Stargate Universe video clip I watched from the guy who handles all the weaponry for the show: "Clips go in your hair, Magazines go in your gun." :)
Bull
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Clips go in your WWI/WWII Rifles. Magazines go in your modern firearms.
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I gave up on that a long time ago. "Clips" uses up less letters, ink, and page space than "magazines" is the only reason it stays clips in SR, near as I can figure.
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To 99% of the population, Clip and Magazine are interchangeable terms. The fact that Shadowrun uses both is... strange.
Hrmm. We need new terminology then.
Bull
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I'm going to shut my soypie (http://fromtheshadowsrpg.blogspot.com/2007/08/advertisement-soypie.html) hole before I get myself in big trouble.
Firearms terminology is old and dated. "Standard Rounds" (Regular, ordinary, boring bullets) are known as "Ball Rounds", dating back to pretty much the Flintlock days. Despite not being ball-shaped any longer.
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To 99% of the population, Clip and Magazine are interchangeable terms. The fact that Shadowrun uses both is... strange.
Hrmm. We need new terminology then.
Bull
I vote for 'Gun-Bullet-Holder-Thingie', aka the GBHT. Thus, we have it interchangable with Drums, Magazines and Clips, and you can define price of GBHT's by Ammo capacity.
GBHT <20 bullet capacity = X
GBHT 20-40 bullet capacity = Y
GBHT 40+ bullet capacity = Z
Done and Done. (And GBHT is no bigger a word than Clip, thus saving valuable printer ink....)
Zany, but workable :P
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I feel like FastJack after he tried to watch a show legally instead of pirate it.
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Actually clips load magazines... Usually we hear about it in reference to loading internal mags. It became widespread in WW2, but through the years it trickled down to 'heavy users' and collectors.
stripper clips/spoons/mag loaders - small arms/ARs/any external mag
speedloaders - generic term (revelover SLs are not really a clip but...)
moon clips/Bianchi speed strips - revolvers
quickloaders - mag-tube shotguns
I think it's an interesting twist when you cap how many mags of ammo players can carry, but that moves into the encumbrance realm that 4e avoids.
More insight from an insomniac...
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Well, there's smart pouches to stick on your combat vest - they only hold one type of clip, but can fit three into one pouch. (Arsenal, p62)
I find this difficult to visualise, unless it's more like a clip to hold your clips in a neat row, and you can just pull them straight out the bottom.
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This must have be3en one of those house rules to real rule situations for me. you use a house rule for so long that you forget it was not a real rule at all. We always bought ammo by gun so my character carried around Ares Predator clips that the ammo and clips only worked on my ares. Each gun had to buy ammo for separately. I guess it is because when they listed equipment on archetype sheets they separated out the ammo. So for example look at the Street samurai archetype it lists in his gear a Ingram Smartgun X [w/ sound Suppressor, Gas vent3, 10 clips of Regular Ammo] and he also has a Stoner-Ares M202 [internal Smartgun System, w/2 100 round belt of regular Ammo] We thought because they listed regular ammo with the gun instead of just say that the Ingram had 10 extra clips and the Stoner had 2 extra belts and then latter listing that the character had 300 rounds of Regular ammo that ammo was specific to each gun for the simplicity of getting rid of caliber. It made it simple, and kept everyone on there toe where ammo was concerned. but after actually rereading the rules the class of gun not the specific gun itself determines the caliber. Well you live in learn, this will make my players a bit more happy. :)
Red
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Ammunition and Magazines (Ugh, FINE, CLIPS! Heathens.) were usually firearm specific, and have been for quite awhile. It's rare you can get companies or countries to agree on standardization when it comes to this, and usually there's a lot of fighting over it for some reason. (The only reason it happened at all, I bet, is due to the Cold War.).
I think idea is that it makes it more difficult for soldiers of an opposing force to use your own equipment against you as easily. Using captured weapons is usually not a good idea, especially if a weapon has a distinctive sound (The AK is infamous for it's sound, for example.), as soldiers can spray-and-pray towards a sound in the dark or through concealment (Jungle, interior walls, AR Spam, etc.). This is one of the reasons US Soldiers didn't use AKs during Vietnam when they first got their hands on the M-16, "The Rifle That Cleans Itself", and all the fun that entailed in that.
Assault Rifles have pretty much Standardized as NATO/Soviet styles. Pistols have kept the proprietary magazines/clips/punch-you-in-the-junk-terms somehow, don't ask me how. Politics, probably.
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If you wanted to be a real EvilGM, have each gun manufacturer use a slightly different bullet size, so that Ares Preadator Rounds are not compatible with Colt Manhunter rounds. Each Megacorp could have it's own size/standardization. :)
Bull
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After all, every Megacorp is going to want the customers that buy their guns to be buying their ammo as well.
But unless you can patent caliber, everyone will be manufacturing everyone's ammunition. The competition would drive down prices and corps would want competitors out of the way.
Net result - more shadowruns.
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As my handle might imply, I have a passing familiarity with fireams (not nearly as much as my handle implies, but "The_Gun_Liker" or "The_Gun_Person-That-Enjoys-Shooting-At-The-Range" just doesn't hold the same weight). While RL might have a thousand-and-one different calibers and casings for pistols, for example, having that kind of complexity in-game is problematic (at best). SR's simple solution works best in this case, even if it is shockingly unrealistic.
I, personally, would like to see more types of ammunition from RL work their way into SR. Like HEAT or AP-I or AP-EX-I ammo. Of course, some of these might have been abstracted into the damage code already, but I think there is room to grow, here.
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After all, every Megacorp is going to want the customers that buy their guns to be buying their ammo as well.
But unless you can patent caliber, everyone will be manufacturing everyone's ammunition. The competition would drive down prices and corps would want competitors out of the way.
Net result - more shadowruns.
Ever wondered why the Predator I, II, and III aren't listed in the core book, just the Predator IV? They were phased out, because too many other corps were manufacturing the specialty size ammo for them. Planned obsolescence, and cheap manufacturing designed to wear out after a couple years of semi-regular use. It's tough to even FIND older model predators anymore that are still in working condition without overhauling and replacing half the mechanisms. And as cheap as a Predator is, might as well scrap it and buy a new one.
:)
Yes, I really want to see the corps pushing to become bigger bastards. They CONTROL THE FRAGGING WORLD. Shy of going to war with each other (And destabilizing the worlds economy in the process), they can do damn well whatever they want. And since 99.999% of the population in Shadowrun are complete and utter sheep suckling on the corporate tit, they just accept whatver comes along without complaint, protest, or even a second thought.
(That said, yeah, simplicity in the rules is better. And the problem with SR4's damage code system is it leaves very little margin for different ammunition types and the like. There's just not enough variance in the damage codes to do much that is all that interesting with them)
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1We always bought ammo by gun so my character carried around Ares Predator clips that the ammo and clips only worked on my ares. Each gun had to buy ammo for separately. I guess it is because when they listed equipment on archetype sheets they separated out the ammo. So for example look at the Street samurai archetype
*snip*
Yeah, this mindset works out pretty well. When my players were making their characters, I'd assume that each gun came with one empty clip if they used 'em (even nowadays, that's typical), then ask them "Pick an ammo type, tell me how many clips/reloads you want of it." That way, they can say "My Ingram Smartgun has X clips of regular ammo, and X clips of flechette"; keeps it simple. They can then note how much a reload costs, and they're good.
Yes, they're using the terminology a little wrong, but they do draw a distinction: SR4A, p. 324. The define a "removable clip" and an "internal magazine" as separate reload types. Basically anything listing a clip or drum has the ammo in a separate item; internal magazines, muzzle-loaders, and break-action require you to open up the firearm in some way to insert more ammo.
The gun-enthusiasts in my group understand the distinctions, and don't nitpick the terminology.
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The distinction between clip and magazine is only cringe worthy for a few, unfortunately, thanks to Hollywood and the like.
Ever wondered why the Predator I, II, and III aren't listed in the core book, just the Predator IV? They were phased out, because too many other corps were manufacturing the specialty size ammo for them. Planned obsolescence, and cheap manufacturing designed to wear out after a couple years of semi-regular use. It's tough to even FIND older model predators anymore that are still in working condition without overhauling and replacing half the mechanisms. And as cheap as a Predator is, might as well scrap it and buy a new one.
Those dirty rotten corps, the term bastard covered bastards comes to mind. I sense 3rd world countries using ammo as currency coming on (ala Fallout, Metro 2033, and dozen of post-apocalyptic literature)...
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If you wanted to be a real EvilGM, have each gun manufacturer use a slightly different bullet size, so that Ares Preadator Rounds are not compatible with Colt Manhunter rounds. Each Megacorp could have it's own size/standardization. :)
Bull
This used to be the case "Back in the day"... Only NATO and Soviet muscle standardized anything really. 9mm Luger/Parabellum being the rare exception. It really got bad when some were the same diameter, but different lengths (.45 Long Colt Revolver and .45 S&W were two different rounds. The Colt Peacemaker could load and shoot both, but the S&W No.3 Schofield could only use .45 S&W.).
On the flipside, firearms come out in different calibers as well. Sometimes they're sold as different models (Like Glocks), but sometimes they use the same name and just have the caliber stamped on the side.
So, yeah, you got your Browning Ultrapower, but is it in 10mm Ares Caseless or .45 ACCP or 12.7mm Caseless Action Express?
Making ammunition common, however, can also be a selling point. A lot of Cowboys bought "Frontier" models of revolvers, as they were cambered to use the same rounds as a '73 Winchester. Doesn't matter where you reach for your bullets, you can reload either weapon. Just hope they have .44-40 Winchester at the General Store when you're running low on ammo, and they don't have it on order.
So, either the Corporate Court has standardized Caseless Calibers (Which is how I describe the "Simple System"), or the Corps have gone all out back to the "Good Old Days" of unique calibers ("Complex System".). Tailor it to your group's likes and needs as you will.
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(That said, yeah, simplicity in the rules is better. And the problem with SR4's damage code system is it leaves very little margin for different ammunition types and the like. There's just not enough variance in the damage codes to do much that is all that interesting with them)
I agree completely. I've found that players, in general, do not like bookkeeping unless it happens to be something they are very passionate about. So if you are very enthusiastic about firearms (and firearm realism), you will want the complexity of multiple and weapon-specific calibers.
If not, five clips regular ammo and five clips EX is more than enough to keep track of (especially if you have 3 or more weapons). The good thing about RP games is, if the GM agrees you can just add the layers.
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What I think is weird (As well as) is the fact that you can't mix ammo up.
Take Matilda, for instance. An AK-97 with a Defiance T-250 mounted on the Underbelly as a "Master Key".
Load the shell in the chamber with a Shock Lock, then Slugs in the tube to handle bigger problems in the shotgun, leaving the Assault Rifle loaded with three rounds of Gel for "Warning shots to the chest", then Regular Ammo after that to deal with more serious issues would be a loadout that I'd go for. But, officially, not allowed.
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What I think is weird (As well as) is the fact that you can't mix ammo up.
Take Matilda, for instance. An AK-97 with a Defiance T-250 mounted on the Underbelly as a "Master Key".
Load the shell in the chamber with a Shock Lock, then Slugs in the tube to handle bigger problems in the shotgun, leaving the Assault Rifle loaded with three rounds of Gel for "Warning shots to the chest", then Regular Ammo after that to deal with more serious issues would be a loadout that I'd go for. But, officially, not allowed.
Where is it said you cannot do this? Arsenal even has a weapon modification tailored for this "Ammo Skip System".
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It's a suggestion for GMs in the core book, p154; near the stuff for burst and auto fire.
In that context, it makes sense to say, "Hey, firing an ExEx / SnS / Capsule 3-round burst might be going a bit far." ::)
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It's primarily to avoid exactly that sort of headache. The rules also don't cover using varying ammo in a burst.
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Yeah, the only rounds you can mix are Tracers. And, well, for simplicity's sake.
The Ammo Skip option allows you to get around that, I guess. Also, it makes for a great Lawgiver scene: Sammy: "APDS." Pistol: "Armor Piercing."
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Damage is a bit generic to mix different rounds, but it still works well enough.
Is there any errata I've missed on sniper rifles and the damage value being raised? Or is it still attempting to make up the difference with aiming alone (vs different firing modes)?
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Not sure why the damage on these needs to go up, savaze. The first real combat in my game showed how high it can get.
'Course, our resident cover-fire specialist is a sniper adept. Real high Agility, maxed-out Longarms skill (with specialization), the powers Improved Combat Skill (guess where) and Attribute Boost (Agility, no less). Imaging scope packed with options, and one of those two-clip rifles from Arsenal. Not to mention Hawkeye.
He took an overwatch position while the rest of the team was going into the thick of things. While the street sam took out two guys with his claymore (troll + claymore + custom cyberarms = ow), the sniper was pegging the others with stick-n-shock rounds from about 80 meters away. The last bad guy standing went full-auto berserk, spraying the mage's position with suppressive fire. This lasted until the sniper switched to his ex-ex clip and put one in the guy's head. Did something like 17P damage after his defense roll. I didn't even bother rolling soak.
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80 meters is not that long a distance for an overwatch position I would think.
But, then again, I've never been through Sniper Training, so what do I know?
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This was just the situation putting him that "close". His maximum effective range is 1.5 kilometers, same as for any sniper rifle (though I know that, realistically, he should have a chance at much higher ranges).
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80 meters is not that long a distance for an overwatch position I would think.
But, then again, I've never been through Sniper Training, so what do I know?
It's very close, yes.
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Anyone with high dice pools could crank out the damage with even a holdout pistol. So skill related dice dice pools aren't being referred to... Sniper rifles felt more substantial in prior editions with their damage ratings so much higher than they are now. Now there are stock BRs doing the same damage as a stock Barret 121. I know I'm not the only one with this gripe, I've read others wondering as well. It seems like that wonky 3rd to 4th edition formula was used on the damage code of the sniper rifles, but other weapons just arbitrarily changed their codes to fall in line.
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Battle Rifles have a LOT of issues, not the least of which is their damage codes. I suggest not allowing them in games myself.
Bull
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I agree Bull BR's are better left for looking at than playing with. Now if a player wants to attempt to make a Sports Rifle into a BR then that's a separate issue, but it still won't be on par with a fully customizable BR!
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80 meters is not that long a distance for an overwatch position I would think.
But, then again, I've never been through Sniper Training, so what do I know?
80 meters is short range for military squad or platoon engagement, because there usually is a lot of support fire at least available, if not already involved (HMG, marksman, mortar, infantry combat vehicle). Sniper comes in hand at much much longer range. On the other hand, 80 meters is in the same order of mangnitude than JFK assassination, the Beltway sniper and Yaponshik hit.
Sniper rifles felt more substantial in prior editions with their damage ratings so much higher than they are now. Now there are stock BRs doing the same damage as a stock Barret 121. I know I'm not the only one with this gripe, I've read others wondering as well. It seems like that wonky 3rd to 4th edition formula was used on the damage code of the sniper rifles, but other weapons just arbitrarily changed their codes to fall in line.
Battle riffles have a 7P damage value (AP -1 or -2) ; the Barret 121 is 9P (AP -4). Seems significant enough as a difference to me.
Most RPG and video games has sniper rifles doing more damage because they don't handle properly the effect of an aimed round into the chest. IRL, a lot of sniper rifles use exactly the same ammo as battle riffles (though .338 Lapua Magnum have been getting more and more common). The differences are, a sniper rifle have optimum accuracy on the first shot and retain it, and the sniper himself usually take the time to properly aim. A rifleman hitting by luck would end with about the same amount of metal arriving at a similar speed.
In my (very) humble opinion, the problem with SR rules is the range table that make it way too easy for an average shooter to hit a target at long range. The rules makes it quite easy to hit two separate targets at 200 meters with a stock assault riffle, under 3 seconds. Past a certain distance, you should be forced to take some Aim actions. Sniper rifle aren't more deadly because they are more powerful. They are because they can hit in a few shots when other weapons would require you to empty several magazines spreading bullets in the same direction.
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I'm still trying to figure out how the Russians made a delicate weapon. I mean, take a Kalashnikov design and just modify it slightly, done. Battle Rifle.
Guess politics and capitalism has hit the Land of the Bear.
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80 meters is short range for military squad or platoon engagement, because there usually is a lot of support fire at least available, if not already involved (HMG, marksman, mortar, infantry combat vehicle). Sniper comes in hand at much much longer range. On the other hand, 80 meters is in the same order of mangnitude than JFK assassination, the Beltway sniper and Yaponshik hit.
I'll pass on being that close to mortar fire...
Battle riffles have a 7P damage value (AP -1 or -2) ; the Barret 121 is 9P (AP -4). Seems significant enough as a difference to me.
Most RPG and video games has sniper rifles doing more damage because they don't handle properly the effect of an aimed round into the chest. IRL, a lot of sniper rifles use exactly the same ammo as battle riffles (though .338 Lapua Magnum have been getting more and more common). The differences are, a sniper rifle have optimum accuracy on the first shot and retain it, and the sniper himself usually take the time to properly aim. A rifleman hitting by luck would end with about the same amount of metal arriving at a similar speed.
In my (very) humble opinion, the problem with SR rules is the range table that make it way too easy for an average shooter to hit a target at long range. The rules makes it quite easy to hit two separate targets at 200 meters with a stock assault riffle, under 3 seconds. Past a certain distance, you should be forced to take some Aim actions. Sniper rifle aren't more deadly because they are more powerful. They are because they can hit in a few shots when other weapons would require you to empty several magazines spreading bullets in the same direction.
You inspired me to call the doc for some sleep assistance, all my 7 looked like 9's. I still don't care for BR's even without insomnia induced hallucinating. There's already a class of rifles that fire that damage code. There's a lot of reasons that BR's don't fit.
BR's are more in reference to the Designated Marksman Rifles (DMR), which have been integrated to fill the gap between the standard soldier and the sniper. In the US they're using, mostly, M14's that are being refitted with lighter components and Picatinny Rails, which are a far cry from being chambered in .338 Lapua (My bro carried one with an under barrel 203).
SR4 went the way of VG's with seriously decreased lethality. I think that's the biggest gripe with how damage is dealt, but it shows very clearly with sniper rifles. The only difference between sports and sniper rifles is the avoided caliber issue and the length of the barrel. IRL snipers use whatever has a long barrel and a round that can carry the punch to the distance they're looking for. I agree the speed of engaging several targets is a bit unrealistic. Maybe if the shooter isn't using a bolt action rifle and has some serious help from augmented reality, I grasping at straws here. I haven't engaged anything beyond 100m with a rifle, so I'm a far stretch from having sniper experience...
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I seem to recall finding Shadowrun to be fairly lethal. GMing, at least "Whoa whoa crap, no, no turns out that Roomsweeper was loaded with flechettes, not slugs!"
I also thought the lack damage was supposed to include trying to get a clean hit?
I thought most of the sniper rifles were semi-automatic, and I can definitely see that being the major advantage of a smartlink, subsumed into its bonus for simplicity. Man, I want a smartlink. I think they're working on them now, aren't they?
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In the "Camera pointed where the rifle is aimed" mode, yes, they have Smartlinks in development. Shoot around a corner without sticking your head out.
In the "I think you dead" firing mode, we're a long way from that.
IIRC, "Battle Rifles" range from WWI/WWII Bolt-Action Rifles (And the Semi-Auto M1 Garand, of course), which were in use before the MP-44 was developed, inventing the Assault Rifle. When Assault Rifles were put onto the battlefield in full use, the ranges were set up based on experiences from WWII, where the fluid and fast combat needed a range less than a Battle Rifle, but more than a MP/SMG (Which was the same thing back in those days.).
Soldiers found that often enough ranges of combat would exceed their ARs ability to accurately fire, and so Battle Rifles came back at least in limited form, and a few updates were given to make them Semi-Auto. I think it was the Russian Invasion of Afghanistan that this was most shown to the average person, with Afghan Soldiers using Battle Rifles beyond the accurate range of the Soviets AKs (Insert joke about "Accurate AK Fire" here.).
That's the armchair, civvie puke view of why things happened. I could be totally wrong.
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What's always been strange for me is hearing about seeing and hitting a target at those ranges, hundred, two hundred, five hundred yards. I can't even see that far!
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What's always been strange for me is hearing about seeing and hitting a target at those ranges, hundred, two hundred, five hundred yards. I can't even see that far!
Some people can. It's also easier in some instances than others. Plains and Tundra are two prime examples of that. (The old joke about Saskatchewan's game of "Hide And Seek" involving a twenty-minute car drive to get to a hiding spot...).
The Canadian Rangers still use SMLE No. 4 Rifles (WWII vintage rifles here) due to the fact that they're perfectly reliable in the Arctic conditions they operate in (The Rangers are mostly Inuit, so they live where they protect, always a good start for a unit), and were perfect for dealing with the issues that they were formed for: Invasion of North American by the USSR from the Arctic Circle. AKs will work in Arctic Conditions as well (Actually, is there a place where an AK won't work?), but, well...
IIRC, the maximum range the sights on an AK-47/AKM can be adjusted to is 300 metres (And this is apparently generous.). The SMLE can accurately place shots as far as a person can physically see. And that's the Mass Production models, too. The Sniper Models are insane in accuracy (They were made by Holland And Holland.).
The only issue with them is that they don't use NATO-Standard ammunition (They're still chambered in .303 British Service), and the Canadian Armed Forces have talked about replacing them a few times, apparently. Politics and a few other issues have prevented this.