[EmperorPenguin]

(That said, yeah, simplicity in the rules is better.  And the problem with SR4's damage code system is it leaves very little margin for different ammunition types and the like.  There's just not enough variance in the damage codes to do much that is all that interesting with them)

I agree completely.  I've found that players, in general, do not like bookkeeping unless it happens to be something they are very passionate about.  So if you are very enthusiastic about firearms (and firearm realism), you will want the complexity of multiple and weapon-specific calibers.

If not, five clips regular ammo and five clips EX is more than enough to keep track of (especially if you have 3 or more weapons).  The good thing about RP games is, if the GM agrees you can just add the layers.

[CanRay]

What I think is weird (As well as) is the fact that you can't mix ammo up.

Take Matilda, for instance.  An AK-97 with a Defiance T-250 mounted on the Underbelly as a "Master Key".

Load the shell in the chamber with a Shock Lock, then Slugs in the tube to handle bigger problems in the shotgun, leaving the Assault Rifle loaded with three rounds of Gel for "Warning shots to the chest", then Regular Ammo after that to deal with more serious issues would be a loadout that I'd go for.  But, officially, not allowed.

[Man Who Walks At Night]

What I think is weird (As well as) is the fact that you can't mix ammo up.

Take Matilda, for instance.  An AK-97 with a Defiance T-250 mounted on the Underbelly as a "Master Key".

Load the shell in the chamber with a Shock Lock, then Slugs in the tube to handle bigger problems in the shotgun, leaving the Assault Rifle loaded with three rounds of Gel for "Warning shots to the chest", then Regular Ammo after that to deal with more serious issues would be a loadout that I'd go for.  But, officially, not allowed.

Where is it said you cannot do this? Arsenal even has a weapon modification tailored for this "Ammo Skip System".

[Sid]

It's a suggestion for GMs in the core book, p154; near the stuff for burst and auto fire.

In that context, it makes sense to say, "Hey, firing an ExEx / SnS / Capsule 3-round burst might be going a bit far."

[LonePaladin]

It's primarily to avoid exactly that sort of headache. The rules also don't cover using varying ammo in a burst.

[CanRay]

Yeah, the only rounds you can mix are Tracers.  And, well, for simplicity's sake.

The Ammo Skip option allows you to get around that, I guess.  Also, it makes for a great Lawgiver scene:  Sammy:  "APDS."  Pistol:  "Armor Piercing."

[savaze]

Damage is a bit generic to mix different rounds, but it still works well enough.

Is there any errata I've missed on sniper rifles and the damage value being raised?  Or is it still attempting to make up the difference with aiming alone (vs different firing modes)?

[LonePaladin]

Not sure why the damage on these needs to go up, savaze. The first real combat in my game showed how high it can get.


'Course, our resident cover-fire specialist is a sniper adept. Real high Agility, maxed-out Longarms skill (with specialization), the powers Improved Combat Skill (guess where) and Attribute Boost (Agility, no less). Imaging scope packed with options, and one of those two-clip rifles from Arsenal. Not to mention Hawkeye.


He took an overwatch position while the rest of the team was going into the thick of things. While the street sam took out two guys with his claymore (troll + claymore + custom cyberarms = ow), the sniper was pegging the others with stick-n-shock rounds from about 80 meters away. The last bad guy standing went full-auto berserk, spraying the mage's position with suppressive fire. This lasted until the sniper switched to his ex-ex clip and put one in the guy's head. Did something like 17P damage after his defense roll. I didn't even bother rolling soak.

[CanRay]

80 meters is not that long a distance for an overwatch position I would think.

But, then again, I've never been through Sniper Training, so what do I know?

[LonePaladin]

This was just the situation putting him that "close". His maximum effective range is 1.5 kilometers, same as for any sniper rifle (though I know that, realistically, he should have a chance at much higher ranges).

[Critias]

80 meters is not that long a distance for an overwatch position I would think.

But, then again, I've never been through Sniper Training, so what do I know?

It's very close, yes.

[savaze]

Anyone with high dice pools could crank out the damage with even a holdout pistol.  So skill related dice dice pools aren't being referred to... Sniper rifles felt more substantial in prior editions with their damage ratings so much higher than they are now.  Now there are stock BRs doing the same damage as a stock Barret 121.  I know I'm not the only one with this gripe, I've read others wondering as well.  It seems like that wonky 3rd to 4th edition formula was used on the damage code of the sniper rifles, but other weapons just arbitrarily changed their codes to fall in line.

[Bull]

Battle Rifles have a LOT of issues, not the least of which is their damage codes.  I suggest not allowing them in games myself.

Bull

[savaze]

I agree Bull BR's are better left for looking at than playing with.  Now if a player wants to attempt to make a Sports Rifle into a BR then that's a separate issue, but it still won't be on par with a fully customizable BR!

[Nath]

80 meters is not that long a distance for an overwatch position I would think.

But, then again, I've never been through Sniper Training, so what do I know?

80 meters is short range for military squad or platoon engagement, because there usually is a lot of support fire at least available, if not already involved (HMG, marksman, mortar, infantry combat vehicle). Sniper comes in hand at much much longer range. On the other hand, 80 meters is in the same order of mangnitude than JFK assassination, the Beltway sniper and Yaponshik hit.

Sniper rifles felt more substantial in prior editions with their damage ratings so much higher than they are now.  Now there are stock BRs doing the same damage as a stock Barret 121.  I know I'm not the only one with this gripe, I've read others wondering as well.  It seems like that wonky 3rd to 4th edition formula was used on the damage code of the sniper rifles, but other weapons just arbitrarily changed their codes to fall in line.

Battle riffles have a 7P damage value (AP -1 or -2) ; the Barret 121 is 9P (AP -4). Seems significant enough as a difference to me.

Most RPG and video games has sniper rifles doing more damage because they don't handle properly the effect of an aimed round into the chest. IRL, a lot of sniper rifles use exactly the same ammo as battle riffles (though .338 Lapua Magnum have been getting more and more common). The differences are, a sniper rifle have optimum accuracy on the first shot and retain it, and the sniper himself usually take the time to properly aim. A rifleman hitting by luck would end with about the same amount of metal arriving at a similar speed.

In my (very) humble opinion, the problem with SR rules is the range table that make it way too easy for an average shooter to hit a target at long range. The rules makes it quite easy to hit two separate targets at 200 meters with a stock assault riffle, under 3 seconds. Past a certain distance, you should be forced to take some Aim actions. Sniper rifle aren't more deadly because they are more powerful. They are because they can hit in a few shots when other weapons would require you to empty several magazines spreading bullets in the same direction.