Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Sichr on <08-24-11/0828:50>
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I`ll update my post later, for now, just a word...this thread is crated to propose good examples of dealing with (mostly) magicians, giving some not-so-experienced GMs some tactics, ideas how to deal with PCs and possibly even GRUNT samples to create balanced oposition.
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The first and foremost reminder is that GMs should remember the Perception test to notice magic use.
SR4A, p.179
The threshold to notice a spell being cast is (6 - spell's Force). Depending on your mook squad setup, if one of them notices magic, they can (and should) inform their buddies as to which runner is slinging the mojo. "Geek the mage first" still applies in Shadowrun.
One of my own players neglected this fact, as well as forgetting to invest in Counterspelling. One of the opposing Lone Star officers took it upon himself to slam that poor guy with a pair of Stunbolts, Force 5 and Force 7. ;)
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Since i kinda started this debate in an unrelated forum I guess I'll chime in. I'm new to GM'ing and 4e rules so GMing so far has been a lot of trail and error on my part. I feel one of my main problems is setting up the right opposition for the PC's. My game is using a number of the season 2 missions and I am finding my players are taking them out in the first round if not first pass of combat. So I've been altering the opposition to try and compensate. Adding a decent countermage, spreading out NPC so that they are not all wiped out by a single area effect spell or grenade. In the first few missions a PC mage was owned the show. Increase reflexes w/ a sustaining focus give her 3 passes usually and she cast stunball with 15 dice in the spellcasting roll and 14 for drain. She can throw out force 6 stunballs normally with no drain. Granted during this time i was working from the older core rules book and have since went to the 20th ann rule book which helps things out a bit with indirect area spells hits adding to drain. I've been adding mages to help counterspell the pc's and using more spirit to give them other things to worry on.
What I need is advice on how to properly challenge the PC's seems thing are too easy or too hard. I put them up against a force 6 toxic spirit and they couldn't handle it. The before mention mage isn't very strong with banishing so shes was better off attacking it directly with spells. Lucky the PC's were able to take out the mage that summoned the spirit and I had it take off for freedom rather then continuing to fight the PC's.
I'm planning to use the disrupt focus spell in some future encounters. I like mages so please don't interpret this is an anti-mage thing. I just want to run a better game and could use some ideas.
-SS
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When using spirits, it seems to me that most of GMs...and PCs also, think of them as of a combat drone or something like that. IMO spirit powers are described as "inspiration" not as exact statement, and GMs are encouraged to modify them to their own taste. It takes a little prepatration of the scene, and planning of using indirect powers and skills, but f.6 Toxic spirit is more than just melee oponent. With such powers as Desire reflection, used on the whole team, it should be nice to see them fight each other...Im not going to spoill more, I have a PbP on hold where Id like to use this tactics to see the result. Also, in that case, Ive entered scene quite straight, well on the other side, such meeting may be a very dramatic and gameplay with horrorr atmosphere.
Proper challenge also may be built by not revealing whole oposing force at first combat turn, making the scene graduating a bit.
And...to quote kontact, every piece of land in most cities is tainted by background count. This should give game good balance, at least drive for cleansing on the Mage side.
I`ve witnessed a game that was won by mage using just manipulating spells..even on his own teammates. Thats much worse than +4IP.
Lucky for us, GMs, we may use astral signatures for tracking the mage down, using pieces of his victims for ritual spellcasting on him.
Also...not exactly RAW IMO...but in awakened world with talisleggers a lot of people would have some fetichs or something to protect themselves from magic. may or may it not work for mundane, that is up to GM if he wants to create such things providing counterspell or other protection for possible magical threats...
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When using spirits, it seems to me that most of GMs...and PCs also, think of them as of a combat drone or something like that. IMO spirit powers are described as "inspiration" not as exact statement, and GMs are encouraged to modify them to their own taste. It takes a little prepatration of the scene, and planning of using indirect powers and skills, but f.6 Toxic spirit is more than just melee oponent. With such powers as Desire reflection, used on the whole team, it should be nice to see them fight each other...Im not going to spoill more, I have a PbP on hold where Id like to use this tactics to see the result. Also, in that case, Ive entered scene quite straight, well on the other side, such meeting may be a very dramatic and gameplay with horrorr atmosphere.
Proper challenge also may be built by not revealing whole oposing force at first combat turn, making the scene graduating a bit.
And...to quote kontact, every piece of land in most cities is tainted by background count. This should give game good balance, at least drive for cleansing on the Mage side.
I`ve witnessed a game that was won by mage using just manipulating spells..even on his own teammates. Thats much worse than +4IP.
Lucky for us, GMs, we may use astral signatures for tracking the mage down, using pieces of his victims for ritual spellcasting on him.
Also...not exactly RAW IMO...but in awakened world with talisleggers a lot of people would have some fetichs or something to protect themselves from magic. may or may it not work for mundane, that is up to GM if he wants to create such things providing counterspell or other protection for possible magical threats...
Can you track a spell thta's been casted on something? It seemed from reading the book this was impossible because it only seemed to talk about one's that the mage was currently upholding, or a spirit connected to him.
<.< If a mage casted a lightning ball, or shatter spell and then left. Then someone came investigating the scene from what I read in the book it doesn't seem possible by the "tracking" rules i was reading in the main book. Unless I'm just misunderstanding it. xD
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Read Astral signature ... it lasts for hours equal to force...must be cleansed, otherwise should be assensed by ie KE investigator, who can then give this image almost anytime as a image to Spirit, that is able to Search...
And IMO...if mage kill someone with the spell, he establishes powerfull link that should be used to guide ritual spellcasting...but this is not IMO RAW...like material or sympathetic linkkk
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Read Astral signature ... it lasts for hours equal to force...must be cleansed, otherwise should be assensed by ie KE investigator, who can then give this image almost anytime as a image to Spirit, that is able to Search...
And IMO...if mage kill someone with the spell, he establishes powerfull link that should be used to guide ritual spellcasting...but this is not IMO RAW...like material or sympathetic linkkk
I see, kind of like in harry potter. XD
And good to know though that doesn't leave much time for an investigator to get it. Doesn't the astral search take like hours per check? Anyways I will most definately read that when i get home. :D
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You did not just get Harry Potter in my Shadowrun, did you? *Stern Look*
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You did not just get Harry Potter in my Shadowrun, did you? *Stern Look*
Hey I was going to say "Warriors of Virtue" but I REALLY doubt anyone knew that one. So I went with another thing that used a link between killer and Victim.
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I've actually brought this up before with another group of players, but the next time the players are doing a run on corporate property, you can put a single wagemage in what works like a panic room on the property, and he has a periscope web of mirrors that gives him physical line of sight to most of the rooms in the building. He can freely spellcast against them, and as long as he plugs the periscopes before they cast back, he's going to be a serious problem and they typically abandon the mission. Helps remind your players that simple obstacles can be a serious problem if your not prepared for it.
Another fun tactic I like to place is when the players start to feel invincible, and they're doing a run on a laboratory of sorts. Simply install a closed circuit system for the security systems and doors then drop a cyber-tooth Tiger in the midst with a security account access. Nasty bugger can shut off lights and ambush them constantly while being camouflaged, hard to target, and bring up panic fast. First introducing a bugger like that usually ends in another abandon mission or even a character death. I know it's mean and ruthless, but consider that the Johnson payed them alot of Nuyen, most of it upfront, and they think "Hey easy smash and grab", this'll make them think twice about a run.
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I've actually brought this up before with another group of players, but the next time the players are doing a run on corporate property, you can put a single wagemage in what works like a panic room on the property, and he has a periscope web of mirrors that gives him physical line of sight to most of the rooms in the building. He can freely spellcast against them, and as long as he plugs the periscopes before they cast back, he's going to be a serious problem and they typically abandon the mission. Helps remind your players that simple obstacles can be a serious problem if your not prepared for it.
Another fun tactic I like to place is when the players start to feel invincible, and they're doing a run on a laboratory of sorts. Simply install a closed circuit system for the security systems and doors then drop a cyber-tooth Tiger in the midst with a security account access. Nasty bugger can shut off lights and ambush them constantly while being camouflaged, hard to target, and bring up panic fast. First introducing a bugger like that usually ends in another abandon mission or even a character death. I know it's mean and ruthless, but consider that the Johnson payed them alot of Nuyen, most of it upfront, and they think "Hey easy smash and grab", this'll make them think twice about a run.
To the first one, I'd say Shoot the damn mirrors as you go, and second have someone ready to throw a grenade as you continue through the place. He opens up his "mirror room" and you toss the grenade in. :D
The second one sounds pretty bad, though if you have ultrasonic vision I don't think it would be the hard or a motion sensor. :D
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To the first one, I'd say Shoot the damn mirrors as you go, and second have someone ready to throw a grenade as you continue through the place. He opens up his "mirror room" and you toss the grenade in. :D
The second one sounds pretty bad, though if you have ultrasonic vision I don't think it would be the hard or a motion sensor. :D
But the "mirror room" as you put it is similar to a panic room, once it's locked down, it's almost like a safe. And they'd have to succeed on a pretty hard perception roll to even notice the mirrors in the first place, they'd probably be too busy watching the guards and cameras then notice that odd gleam in the very top room corner, and the mage would have a nice first surprise round (What if he's one of those 3IP mages to begin with :O Stunbolt storm anyone?).
As for the second one, most mages wouldn't have a sensor package like that, since they need physical vision for spellcasting, they would have to have spend essence to spellcast through the ultrasound. More likely they would turn to astral vision to see through the dark, but the smart tiger would retreat after getting hit with only 1 stunbolt (plenty of corners, moving only 1 meter will give him cover and break LOS), then verify the mage as the biggest threat and separate him from the group using the doors or the security system. He's a predator with a mission, he's not going to just run in and die knowing that there's a human that can see through his only cover (camo and darkness), he'll try to find a way around it.
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The use of fiberoptic cable for the mage to see anywhere in the installation has been around since 2nd edition and is basically the same thing. You could easily make them go back to a panic room to protect the mage.
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Oh is this just a pure mage group? If so then maybe, but the mage only needs to buy goggles and slot them with ultrasound vision. <.< I don't know why he would need essence when he can just have any form of AR to help him see that way. At least he'll have a head's up it's about to come around the corner. xD Though you brough up a good point, Astral Perception which he'd be able to see through walls and see it before it's coming anyways.
I was picturing much larger mirrors, I'm guessing your talking small ones down to see into rooms. Though if they are looking for camera's I think they'd also notice a gleam. >.> though on a perception test what would you make that, a 3 or 4 hits? Easily done with a character with perception. (or at least it seems that way in my group right now for the one or two characters that actually have perception)
Anyways definitely good idea's that I'm going to keep in my box of goodies for later.
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Zilfer, you're forgetting that mages can't spellcast through technology. Just because you're looking at a camera feed of someone in the next room does not allow you to spellcast at them, which is essentially like AR (Gives a holographic feed of what it sees). The only reason mages can spellcast through cybereyes (which is technological) is because they spent essence for it, which makes it "part of their aura" so to speak. So in order to spellcast at a target through ultrasound you have to have spent essence for the ultrasound sensor, but if you're only using it from your goggles to see where the person is around the corner is perfectly fine, you just can't stunball him.
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Oh is this just a pure mage group? If so then maybe, but the mage only needs to buy goggles and slot them with ultrasound vision. <.< I don't know why he would need essence when he can just have any form of AR to help him see that way. At least he'll have a head's up it's about to come around the corner. xD Though you brough up a good point, Astral Perception which he'd be able to see through walls and see it before it's coming anyways.
I was picturing much larger mirrors, I'm guessing your talking small ones down to see into rooms. Though if they are looking for camera's I think they'd also notice a gleam. >.> though on a perception test what would you make that, a 3 or 4 hits? Easily done with a character with perception. (or at least it seems that way in my group right now for the one or two characters that actually have perception)
Anyways definitely good idea's that I'm going to keep in my box of goodies for later.
If you do i that way, Mage will be able to see the tasrget with ultrasound, but for spellcasting..to establish needed LOS nanalink, he will still roll with Full darkness vision modifier. You need to pay the essence for any technological augmentation to be able to cast spell throught it.
Astral sight will not establish LOS manalink on physical targets.
That Magesight WtW mentioned is standard issue, much versatile than mirror maze.
In fact, that Maze idea is good, more cover and oportunity to break LOS, the better for oposing force.
Dont forget that cover modifiers apply for direct combat spells. What seems to be the problem are indirect splees.
As for that +3IP foci mentioned at the beginning: Astral present spirits would make this spell much more variable, since character may need to fight in two separate Layers at one time, And active foci may be targeted from astral IMO even if mage is not astraly perceivin...thus by activating it he bacame target for anyone able to operate in astral, even for LOS mana spells.
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Oh is this just a pure mage group? If so then maybe, but the mage only needs to buy goggles and slot them with ultrasound vision. <.< I don't know why he would need essence when he can just have any form of AR to help him see that way. At least he'll have a head's up it's about to come around the corner. xD Though you brough up a good point, Astral Perception which he'd be able to see through walls and see it before it's coming anyways.
I was picturing much larger mirrors, I'm guessing your talking small ones down to see into rooms. Though if they are looking for camera's I think they'd also notice a gleam. >.> though on a perception test what would you make that, a 3 or 4 hits? Easily done with a character with perception. (or at least it seems that way in my group right now for the one or two characters that actually have perception)
Anyways definitely good idea's that I'm going to keep in my box of goodies for later.
If you do i that way, Mage will be able to see the tasrget with ultrasound, but for spellcasting..to establish needed LOS nanalink, he will still roll with Full darkness vision modifier. You need to pay the essence for any technological augmentation to be able to cast spell throught it.
Astral sight will not establish LOS manalink on physical targets.
That Magesight WtW mentioned is standard issue, much versatile than mirror maze.
In fact, that Maze idea is good, more cover and oportunity to break LOS, the better for oposing force.
Dont forget that cover modifiers apply for direct combat spells. What seems to be the problem are indirect splees.
As for that +3IP foci mentioned at the beginning: Astral present spirits would make this spell much more variable, since character may need to fight in two separate Layers at one time, And active foci may be targeted from astral IMO even if mage is not astraly perceivin...thus by activating it he bacame target for anyone able to operate in astral, even for LOS mana spells.
Sure you can't cast directly at him through the wall with astral perception but then you know he's there, and can tell your team members around the location of where they are in the building. Unless of course there's something like a mana wall which might stop astral perception? o.O' not sure on that. XD
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hm...In astral topographz there is written that walls ets casts shadows on astral plane, and reduces visibilitz also IMO. IDN if it is enought to break LOS.
Otherwise...common solution...spend some essence for UWB radar ;D
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hm...In astral topographz there is written that walls ets casts shadows on astral plane, and reduces visibilitz also IMO. IDN if it is enought to break LOS.
Otherwise...common solution...spend some essence for UWB radar ;D
So question, if a mage is wearing goggles or glasses can he not cast? If it's helping him augment his vision? What if everything is turned off and he's still wearing a biker helmet or goggles?
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I'm planning to use the disrupt focus spell in some future encounters.
Is this in the street magic book? Is it a mana spell? If so I assume then you could cast it astrally against an active focus. Seems my other post was re-inventing the wheel, as this is exactly what I argued would be created in responses to the horde of mages running about with sustaining foci (other post). Now i need an area effect one to get groups of awakened mages with active foci :)
In terms of dealing with mages, astral barriers in an installation will force characters to recast their spells, thus taking more and more drain for each one they cross. Having the local awakened security sitting around in astral space waiting to ambush them when they astrally perceive. Bound spirits to the industial location with instructions to whack anything that goes astral (ie. focus's turning on, mages percieving). Possibly adding instructions to ignore the binder of the spirit. I mean you figure a corp could afford to sustain a half dozen bound spirits for each important facility right? Then you have the corp post a notice saying... this is a magic restricted zone with significan hazzards for any objects or people who access the astral plane while on the premises.
If I was a corp, this is what I'd do, have a rotating duo of mages go to each location once a week, bind a whack of spirits there, give them instructions about the one mage to ignore, rinse repeat.
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I'm planning to use the disrupt focus spell in some future encounters.
Is this in the street magic book? Is it a mana spell? If so I assume then you could cast it astrally against an active focus. Seems my other post was re-inventing the wheel, as this is exactly what I argued would be created in responses to the horde of mages running about with sustaining foci (other post). Now i need an area effect one to get groups of awakened mages with active foci :)
In terms of dealing with mages, astral barriers in an installation will force characters to recast their spells, thus taking more and more drain for each one they cross. Having the local awakened security sitting around in astral space waiting to ambush them when they astrally perceive. Bound spirits to the industial location with instructions to whack anything that goes astral (ie. focus's turning on, mages percieving). Possibly adding instructions to ignore the binder of the spirit. I mean you figure a corp could afford to sustain a half dozen bound spirits for each important facility right? Then you have the corp post a notice saying... this is a magic restricted zone with significan hazzards for any objects or people who access the astral plane while on the premises.
If I was a corp, this is what I'd do, have a rotating duo of mages go to each location once a week, bind a whack of spirits there, give them instructions about the one mage to ignore, rinse repeat.
IMO Better...with active foci, as I said before, you may be targeted from astral plane...so you have to be on double watch...
Disrupt focus is from Digital grimoire. one of those spell that is usefull in there...on contrary Illusion spells there: False impression and Manascape, are RAW impossible, must have been done by someone who didnt read core rules...
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I don't believe you can be targeted from the astral plane personally, just by having a foci active. The foci could be targeted, but you would not be. And there's no grounding anymore, sadly, so whatever mana spell cast against that active foci in astral will only affect other astrally percieving/dual natured/ objects even if it were an area effect. Unless I've missed something major in the rules?
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hm...idn if its RAW...but foci creates a channel between astral and physical world...as I remember tha was the way how it works in 2nd ed. I havent used this in SRA, but IMo if you cast stunball ar manaball on active foci, it will affect both astral and physical plane, due to foci dual nature...like casting area effect mana spell on dual natured critter. But that is just assumption, don know if rules support this (since i havent seen that or I cannot recall, possibly it is just my imagination :)) No matter what, Focus, bound by Karma, become part o your aura..and if they are active, your aura become dual natured IMO
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hm...idn if its RAW...but foci creates a channel between astral and physical world...as I remember tha was the way how it works in 2nd ed. I havent used this in SRA, but IMo if you cast stunball ar manaball on active foci, it will affect both astral and physical plane, due to foci dual nature...like casting area effect mana spell on dual natured critter. But that is just assumption, don know if rules support this (since i havent seen that or I cannot recall, possibly it is just my imagination :)) No matter what, Focus, bound by Karma, become part o your aura..and if they are active, your aura become dual natured IMO
I always thought that foci merely contain the same aura as your own, but does not become a part of it, which is why you need to take metamagic to hide it as part of your aura. if it was already a part of it, why would it stand out astrally if active (or even inactive).
I like to invision this scenario as a dual natured apple on someones head, you can shoot the apple but it's still seperate from the person. Now say you shot that apple astrally with an aoe powerbolt (lets say a grenade for the analogy), the apple still explodes, but the physical person is unharmed because the grenade exploded on the astral plane and the person is not dual natured. It's like making a called shot with a grenade launcher in meatspace against a floating active foci, then when it hits you say it explodes astrally killing all the projecting mages because it hit the foci.
One of the bigger rules that they tell you about the limits of spells is that no matter how hard you try, spells can never bridge over from astral to physical. A spell can't bypass that obvious obstacle just because the target is dual natured. The only thing that can actually bridge something like that would be a very powerful astral rift, and if something like that came along the world would probably be doomed anyways.
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hm...idn if its RAW...but foci creates a channel between astral and physical world...as I remember tha was the way how it works in 2nd ed. I havent used this in SRA, but IMo if you cast stunball ar manaball on active foci, it will affect both astral and physical plane, due to foci dual nature...like casting area effect mana spell on dual natured critter. But that is just assumption, don know if rules support this (since i havent seen that or I cannot recall, possibly it is just my imagination :)) No matter what, Focus, bound by Karma, become part o your aura..and if they are active, your aura become dual natured IMO
I always thought that foci merely contain the same aura as your own, but does not become a part of it, which is why you need to take metamagic to hide it as part of your aura. if it was already a part of it, why would it stand out astrally if active (or even inactive).
I like to invision this scenario as a dual natured apple on someones head, you can shoot the apple but it's still seperate from the person. Now say you shot that apple astrally with an aoe powerbolt (lets say a grenade for the analogy), the apple still explodes, but the physical person is unharmed because the grenade exploded on the astral plane and the person is not dual natured. It's like making a called shot with a grenade launcher in meatspace against a floating active foci, then when it hits you say it explodes astrally killing all the projecting mages because it hit the foci.
One of the bigger rules that they tell you about the limits of spells is that no matter how hard you try, spells can never bridge over from astral to physical. A spell can't bypass that obvious obstacle just because the target is dual natured. The only thing that can actually bridge something like that would be a very powerful astral rift, and if something like that came along the world would probably be doomed anyways.
Wlee, my 2 cents...
Cent 1: IE Weapon focus. Your metaphore with an apple is nice, but in this case apple gives the character ability to fight better...so IMO that apple is mutually interconected with characters aura, not stand alone astral object. The same goes with sustaining focus...if the foci is separated from characters aura, the spell works only on the foci.
But this discussion would be better to attend on MIT&M, looks mostly theoretical to me...well I dont mind to be geek from time to time ;)
In 2nd ED, in the opening shortstory ("Plus ca change,...") there is a moment runner magician attacks wage mage throught astral space, attacking his foci, forcing him into astral combat...thus saving his team from being targetted by spells, because wage mage has a lot of other things to attend.
Cent 2: You are right, with such spell only dual natured beings will be hurt, spell would not affect physical space. Not absofuckinlutely convienced about it, but it seems to work good with rules...and astral rifts are goood...to give non magical characters a chance to play the part in awakened run...taking them for example to Shedim metaplane :)
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There are two easy ways to mess with mages:
A) Increased technology. Mages suck at taking out objects with a decent structure rating or object resistance. A couple of mini-gun turrets with Redundant Processing R2 (OR = 7) will ruin pretty much any mages day
B) Counter magic: Wagemages can provide wards and counterspelling which can seriously limit (if not completely sut down) an opposing magician.
The panic room idea is solid (but expensive, so isn't going to show up just everywhere). Mages using fibre-optic links can spellcast normally (although the standard -2 dice for cover normall applies). The mage doesn't need to spend essence, but can sit quiety in the equivalent of a rigger room, and as long as every fibre optic cable is linked to every room, then the entire base is covered. This counts as an optical enhancement, which is perfectly legitimate for most Sorcery tasks (especially Direct combat spells and Mental Manipulations)
Note, this includes COUNTERSPELLING. Ergo, a mage can sit in the panic room, and provide Counterspelling dice to any target the runners are fighting.
This also includes conjuring. As the runners move from room to room, there can be a spirit summoning every time (dep[ending on drain requirements), and watchers in there warning that further violence will not be tolerated, we're watching you etc etc.
Ergo, mage panic rooms are bad.
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That's why you always toss a smoke grenade into each room before entering. Or turn off the light switch I suppose..... see me now fiber optic camera :)
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That's why you always toss a smoke grenade into each room before entering. Or turn off the light switch I suppose..... see me now fiber optic camera :)
There are only so many grenades in the world... I say just project to search him through walls and hope he didn't put a ward up.
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IMO foci do NOT make the mage susceptible to attacks from the astral if he is not astrally perceiving. If that were so they would force the mage to become Dual Natured...which they do not.
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Nope, but the bound spirits in a place can always just attack your sustained foci. Hope those weren't needed for anything....
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There are two easy ways to mess with mages:
A) Increased technology. Mages suck at taking out objects with a decent structure rating or object resistance. A couple of mini-gun turrets with Redundant Processing R2 (OR = 7) will ruin pretty much any mages day
B) Counter magic: Wagemages can provide wards and counterspelling which can seriously limit (if not completely sut down) an opposing magician.
The panic room idea is solid (but expensive, so isn't going to show up just everywhere). Mages using fibre-optic links can spellcast normally (although the standard -2 dice for cover normall applies). The mage doesn't need to spend essence, but can sit quiety in the equivalent of a rigger room, and as long as every fibre optic cable is linked to every room, then the entire base is covered. This counts as an optical enhancement, which is perfectly legitimate for most Sorcery tasks (especially Direct combat spells and Mental Manipulations)
Note, this includes COUNTERSPELLING. Ergo, a mage can sit in the panic room, and provide Counterspelling dice to any target the runners are fighting.
This also includes conjuring. As the runners move from room to room, there can be a spirit summoning every time (dep[ending on drain requirements), and watchers in there warning that further violence will not be tolerated, we're watching you etc etc.
Ergo, mage panic rooms are bad.
Oh ghost. This brings back memories. I remember very well looking this up in horror.
Only one piece of tech out there that I know of that can be used to cast without direct eye sight. but it is mana tech. Mage sight goggles. You have a 30 ft/meter wire that you can tuck around places and cast as though you where right there and in LOS. let me tell you. That stuff gets frigging scary when it's been run across a full facility. One mage with casting eyes in every hallway and corner. Suddenly stun balls and spirits are all over you, and the security forces have counter spelling from ghost only knows where. My whole crew and I where mono wire close to getting TPWO'ed. We got lucky in two ways. 1 I made the perception test to tell that there where odd ports on the walls that kept snaking in and out looking at us just before we got hit so we started shooting them out, and 2. because our mage who was counterspelling for us, used a compulsion spell on the biggest troll in the bunch to go pop their mage, then comeback to geek all their friends. If it hadn't worked, we would have been FRAGGED.
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Turning out the lights so you couldn't be seen wasn't an option? Smoke grenade? Improved invisibility?
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Turning out the lights so you couldn't be seen wasn't an option? Smoke grenade? Improved invisibility?
The question is can they astral perception through that wire? If so not sure invisibility would help. xD
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stick to the high tech smoke then. But even if you could astrally perceive, the mage itself is not dual natured. And can you attack a spell cast on the physical plain? Essentially could some astral projector dispell from astral space folks spells?
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Turning out the lights so you couldn't be seen wasn't an option? Smoke grenade? Improved invisibility?
The question is can they astral perception through that wire? If so not sure invisibility would help. xD
Standard rule is if you can't see through obstructions under normal circumstances (walls, foliage, dust/smoke etc), then Astral Perception won't work either.
Ergo smoke provides the same benfits against Astral Perception as it does against normal vision.
stick to the high tech smoke then. But even if you could astrally perceive, the mage itself is not dual natured. And can you attack a spell cast on the physical plain? Essentially could some astral projector dispell from astral space folks spells?
Clarification: Astrally Perceiving creatures ARE dual-natured.
So, an Astrally Projected mage should be able to give counterspelling dice to an Astrally Perceiving creature/Ally, but this will only be of benefit against MANA spells (as Physical spells have no presence on the Astral Plane, and thus cannot be affected/counterspelled by an Astrally Projecting entity)
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Turning out the lights so you couldn't be seen wasn't an option? Smoke grenade? Improved invisibility?
The question is can they astral perception through that wire? If so not sure invisibility would help. xD
Standard rule is if you can't see through obstructions under normal circumstances (walls, foliage, dust/smoke etc), then Astral Perception won't work either.
Ergo smoke provides the same benfits against Astral Perception as it does against normal vision.
stick to the high tech smoke then. But even if you could astrally perceive, the mage itself is not dual natured. And can you attack a spell cast on the physical plain? Essentially could some astral projector dispell from astral space folks spells?
Clarification: Astrally Perceiving creatures ARE dual-natured.
So, an Astrally Projected mage should be able to give counterspelling dice to an Astrally Perceiving creature/Ally, but this will only be of benefit against MANA spells (as Physical spells have no presence on the Astral Plane, and thus cannot be affected/counterspelled by an Astrally Projecting entity)
No I meant someone argued that the mage in the safe box could astrally percieve over their mage sight goggles to affect your invisibility spell. I wondered if a mage in astrall space, or one who is astrally percieving, can affect sustained spells cast on the physical plain. Essentially is the spell itself "dual natured"
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^I'm also curious does invisibility affect astral perceiving?
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Invisibility spells have no effect in the astral. It is in the book somewhere. As I have read it when you are astrally perceiving smoke and things like that in a room won't hide an astral body from you, yes you have to have assensing to see them but once you do you can blast away with any mana spell you have. Spirits with the conceal power are how you stay hidden in/from the astral since their power covers you on both sides of the coin.
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I was actually assuming your standard improved invisibility wouldn't work in astral. But I'm interested in knowing if someone who is astral noticing the magician that is sustaining the spell can interfere with the spell, you obviously can't attack the magician sustaining since he's not astrally perceiving. So is a spell dual natured when it comes to being targeted by folks who are in astral. This would also mean that if someone was say shape changed, could you astrally project, travel over to the flying bird, and then stop the sustained shape change spell while they're in mid air.
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I was actually assuming your standard improved invisibility wouldn't work in astral. But I'm interested in knowing if someone who is astral noticing the magician that is sustaining the spell can interfere with the spell, you obviously can't attack the magician sustaining since he's not astrally perceiving. So is a spell dual natured when it comes to being targeted by folks who are in astral. This would also mean that if someone was say shape changed, could you astrally project, travel over to the flying bird, and then stop the sustained shape change spell while they're in mid air.
That reminds me of last week when we played DnD
a boat out on the water was summoning an Aboleth and Firebusters (orcs that are red and beefed up a little more) were storming the beach. Well after the Firebusters were mostly killed the aboleth finally arrived from the spell casters on the boat about 100 meters out or so. So this monk with horseshoes of the zypfer grabs a heavily armored dwarf and goes out towards the ship. One of the mages to be seen isn't chanting with the others, he looks at the horse charging over water with those two and.....
Polymorph other!
Horse turned into a fish. <.< Now there's a dwarf in full plate that weights god knows how much skining with all his combat weapons, trying to done his armor before he drowns in the bottom of the sea. XD You should have seen their faces. (the monk also never recovered the fish that simply swam away while he was trying to help the dwarf take off his full plate.)
Needless to say they were out of it for the rest of the battle, was halarious. xD
Anyways back on topic
If that is so that would mean you could do it to any sustained spell right? Also i do know you can SEE the spells they have cast on them.
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The second the mage has a spell going he is Dual natured and is open to all sorts of fun things. Means he goes down if he is forced through a warded area *By the way, cheap trick is to make it where a mage has to levitate to get passed and area and slap a ward right in his way, he has to either push through or fight the ward and either way alerts the caster of the ward.*
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The second the mage has a spell going he is Dual natured and is open to all sorts of fun things. Means he goes down if he is forced through a warded area *By the way, cheap trick is to make it where a mage has to levitate to get passed and area and slap a ward right in his way, he has to either push through or fight the ward and either way alerts the caster of the ward.*
because he has to levitate thus he has a spell active when passing through the ward and then the caster knows? Alright interesting.
What if he just pulls out his trusty grappling hook?
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GM: "Ok you get to the shaft where the guys disappeared to, you notice it is a smooth shaft that goes straight up into the mountain, doesn't appear to be any footholds on the sides."
Mage: "Ok I start levitating up the shaft with the group."
GM: "Ok that shaft goes on for a while, are you doing anything while you travel up?"
Mage: "I am assensing as I go, my spells are sustained through my Foci."
GM: "Ok, well you can see a ward is right in your way, what do you do?"
Now the mage has to either push through or break down the ward *which even if it is a weak one the caster of the ward will know if he pushes through or breaks it down* so the caster of the ward knows he is there. An alternate option is to go astral, and track down the caster of the ward, get his astral sig and change yours to match and have enough successes to beat the ward. He then can move through the ward with no issues since it will see him as the caster.
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GM: "Ok you get to the shaft where the guys disappeared to, you notice it is a smooth shaft that goes straight up into the mountain, doesn't appear to be any footholds on the sides."
Mage: "Ok I start levitating up the shaft with the group."
GM: "Ok that shaft goes on for a while, are you doing anything while you travel up?"
Mage: "I am assensing as I go, my spells are sustained through my Foci."
GM: "Ok, well you can see a ward is right in your way, what do you do?"
Now the mage has to either push through or break down the ward *which even if it is a weak one the caster of the ward will know if he pushes through or breaks it down* so the caster of the ward knows he is there. An alternate option is to go astral, and track down the caster of the ward, get his astral sig and change yours to match and have enough successes to beat the ward. He then can move through the ward with no issues since it will see him as the caster.
Well too bad there's no go around option. XD
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And if it is a time sensitive thing he doesn't have time to set everyone down and track the guy down. If the mage happens to know they are already there it is a moot point to have this happen but if the guy can't seem to break down the ward fast enough or he doesn't have the ability to push off the sustaining negative... well lets just say it is a jerk move but it is a fun roadblock. If your street same happens to have a climbers rigging or you have flying drones that can set them then you are good.
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Alright well should be interesting if I ever do that. Though i'm almost possitive that my group would just go straight through the barrier.
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The second the mage has a spell going he is Dual natured and is open to all sorts of fun things. Means he goes down if he is forced through a warded area *By the way, cheap trick is to make it where a mage has to levitate to get passed and area and slap a ward right in his way, he has to either push through or fight the ward and either way alerts the caster of the ward.*
Do you know where it says that any casting magician is considered dual natured and can be victim of attacks from astral space?
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Trying to find it, I remember reading it when finding ways to bypass wards and such. The main thing I found for it was to shut off all magic and Foci to make yourself "normal" then just walk through since most wards go for the dual nature people or spirits. A sustained spell is an astral thing so it attaches to you since you are sustaining it and it makes you dual while it is on, it is along the lines of astral sight and all that. Maybe I read it wrong?
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I think you did.
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I think you did.
I agree, this would sort of break the meta-rule that things on astral can't affect others or things that aren't also astral. As it would allow a non astrally perceiving magician in the physical plain to be attacked by spells cast from the astral one.
While it may make more sense to claim the spell itself while being sustained is a dual natured object (like an active focus say) and thus the spell could be targeted from the astral plain, saying the caster becomes dual is something quite different.
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The second the mage has a spell going he is Dual natured and is open to all sorts of fun things. Means he goes down if he is forced through a warded area *By the way, cheap trick is to make it where a mage has to levitate to get passed and area and slap a ward right in his way, he has to either push through or fight the ward and either way alerts the caster of the ward.*
Do you know where it says that any casting magician is considered dual natured and can be victim of attacks from astral space?
The Casting magician is not dual natured
Technically, neither is a sustained spell.**
However a Ward messes with magical effects (Foci, Spirits sustained spells etc) regardless of whether they're dual natured or not.
So in this example,
- the mage with a sustained spell is NOT dual natured and cannot be attacked from Astral space
- the spell effect on the mage is also NOT dual natured, but IS shut down by a decent strength ward
** N.B. Sustained MANA spells are a grey area. It's possible to for an Astral-only magician to counterspell a sustained Mana spell (Mind Probe etc) depending on GM interpretation.
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My bad, I think my mind linked the fact that spells have to beat to go through a ward went hand in hand with mages sustaining a spell needing to push through wards or take damage.
Our games have always been iffy on the magic side of things, with the one GM we had not always having the rules correct on how things worked at the start. Has made for a lot of reworking how things work well into playing.
I always saw wards as a huge problem for a mage, recently I have been reading some of the actual plays and noticed a lot of the casters would just drop all spells and turn off foci then walk right into the warded area and turn everything back on. Made me realize my mage walking around most of the time with no spells sustained might be a really good thing heh.
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So that means invisibility would be fine against mage goggles, or your mage panic room or whatever. Assuming you succeeded on the invisibility roll against the mage, even if he can see you astrally, in order to affect you or your spell, he needs to target them on the physical plain, at which point he can't see you. Problem solved :) I think smoke gernades are a bit better in order to avoid counterspelling etc. Or hacking non window rooms to have the lights turn out.
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Good venting system in the building designed to remove smoke, drones designed to pierce the invisibility spell *Yes they were put in the Spy Games book* or the mage can use assensing on the room. Here is the thing I don't get, it states everything has an aura and is there in the astral world "Living things that are not active on the astral plane still cast a reflection of themselves there, called an aura. Any non-living objects appear as faded semblances of their physical selves, gray and lifeless, while the auras of living things are vibrant and colorful."
If the mage in the goggles is assensing he falls under the astral perception field. This means he can see aura's and such as well as with an assensing roll see spells. Since the invisibility spell doesn't work in the astral wouldn't he need just 1 hit on a perception or assensing to notice you. Unless you are using infiltration and trying to keep yourself hidden then it would be an opposed roll.
"Astral Perception
Many Awakened characters can perceive the astral plane from the physical world. This ability is called astral perception. It is the primary sense used in the astral plane; it shows auras, allowing magicians to examine living creatures in the physical world as well as creatures who live on the astral plane."
Reading pg 191 of the 20th Anniversary edition. This has been a point of confusion for me since how the invisibility spells are put they work only on the physical plane and not the astral.
"This spell makes the subject more difficult to detect by normal visual senses (including low-light, thermographic, and other senses that rely on the visual spectrum). The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch, etc.). Her aura is still visible to astral perception."
So all the mage in the box room has to do is use assensing and score a hit and he can see the aura's of the people in the room and start lobbing mana spells at them, correct?
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I don't think the MITB (Mage In The Box), can lob mana spells. He can easily know the characters are there if happening to be looking astrally, but he can't lob a mana spell at them because he's astral and none of his targets are. What I was wondering if he could do, is take down the invisibility spell from astral space, thus letting him see the intruding group via normal optics and hence start lobbing mana spells.
Good venting system in the building designed to remove smoke, drones designed to pierce the invisibility spell *Yes they were put in the Spy Games book* or the mage can use assensing on the room. Here is the thing I don't get, it states everything has an aura and is there in the astral world "Living things that are not active on the astral plane still cast a reflection of themselves there, called an aura. Any non-living objects appear as faded semblances of their physical selves, gray and lifeless, while the auras of living things are vibrant and colorful."
If the mage in the goggles is assensing he falls under the astral perception field. This means he can see aura's and such as well as with an assensing roll see spells. Since the invisibility spell doesn't work in the astral wouldn't he need just 1 hit on a perception or assensing to notice you. Unless you are using infiltration and trying to keep yourself hidden then it would be an opposed roll.
"Astral Perception
Many Awakened characters can perceive the astral plane from the physical world. This ability is called astral perception. It is the primary sense used in the astral plane; it shows auras, allowing magicians to examine living creatures in the physical world as well as creatures who live on the astral plane."
Reading pg 191 of the 20th Anniversary edition. This has been a point of confusion for me since how the invisibility spells are put they work only on the physical plane and not the astral.
"This spell makes the subject more difficult to detect by normal visual senses (including low-light, thermographic, and other senses that rely on the visual spectrum). The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch, etc.). Her aura is still visible to astral perception."
So all the mage in the box room has to do is use assensing and score a hit and he can see the aura's of the people in the room and start lobbing mana spells at them, correct?
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See this is where I don't get why everyone says that an astral being can't attack from the astral. If in the astral they use assensing on the aura in front of them, they use a mana spell to use the mana in the world to attack and they are targeting a living subject, wouldn't that work?
Physical spells have to be cast in the physical plane, Mana spells can be cast on either but require you to see the target(s) of the spell. Since aura's are visible on the astral plane and with assensing you get information of the subject, why aren't they open to being attacked?
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^got a point there, since you can see normal people on the astral realm why can't you hit them? It might just be a game balancing thing.
I mean you wouldn't want a mage just waltzing into your home and suddenly you feel sleepy. xD You wouldn't even see them coming. xD
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GM: "Ok you get to the shaft where the guys disappeared to, you notice it is a smooth shaft that goes straight up into the mountain, doesn't appear to be any footholds on the sides."
Mage: "Ok I start levitating up the shaft with the group."
GM: "Ok that shaft goes on for a while, are you doing anything while you travel up?"
Mage: "I am assensing as I go, my spells are sustained through my Foci."
GM: "Ok, well you can see a ward is right in your way, what do you do?"
Now the mage has to either push through or break down the ward *which even if it is a weak one the caster of the ward will know if he pushes through or breaks it down* so the caster of the ward knows he is there. An alternate option is to go astral, and track down the caster of the ward, get his astral sig and change yours to match and have enough successes to beat the ward. He then can move through the ward with no issues since it will see him as the caster.
This is where metamagic is your friend!
Masking specifically might be extended masking im not sure atm.
see the ward, stop go down so you dont die, astrally project track mage down that made the ward, A sense him and then change your aura to match now you can walk through the barrier with anything active you want as if you made it. (you make 1 opposed push through test with initiation grade bonus on your side AFAIK).
neat trick i got in my head after i got a few F8 wards thrown infront of me.
Naielo
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The only issue with that is if it is a time crunch thing, or if the mage that made the ward is behind another ward.
GM: "Ok you get to the shaft where the guys disappeared to, you notice it is a smooth shaft that goes straight up into the mountain, doesn't appear to be any footholds on the sides."
Mage: "Ok I start levitating up the shaft with the group."
GM: "Ok that shaft goes on for a while, are you doing anything while you travel up?"
Mage: "I am assensing as I go, my spells are sustained through my Foci."
GM: "Ok, well you can see a ward is right in your way, what do you do?"
Now the mage has to either push through or break down the ward *which even if it is a weak one the caster of the ward will know if he pushes through or breaks it down* so the caster of the ward knows he is there. An alternate option is to go astral, and track down the caster of the ward, get his astral sig and change yours to match and have enough successes to beat the ward. He then can move through the ward with no issues since it will see him as the caster.
This is where metamagic is your friend!
Masking specifically might be extended masking im not sure atm.
see the ward, stop go down so you dont die, astrally project track mage down that made the ward, A sense him and then change your aura to match now you can walk through the barrier with anything active you want as if you made it. (you make 1 opposed push through test with initiation grade bonus on your side AFAIK).
neat trick i got in my head after i got a few F8 wards thrown infront of me.
Naielo
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A ward within a ward.... touche! :P
Question can you 'walk' through a barrier? <.<
I thought stuff like physical barrier or whatever stopped you from going through unless you broke through the barrier.
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Not a ward within a ward because the books state that isn't possible, but if you make Ward A in the hallway and it ends there, then the mage goes into another area where there is another ward the mage trying to copy his aura will have to deal with that.
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In fact, the metamagic you ned to pass throught Ward by copying someones aura, you need Flexible signature metamagic, not masking (Masking only works to hide your magic level, but against ward it is ineffective..)
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In fact, the metamagic you ned to pass throught Ward by copying someones aura, you need Flexible signature metamagic, not masking (Masking only works to hide your magic level, but against ward it is ineffective..)
Reread Street magic
"Only magicians with the Masking metamagic technique
(p. 190, SR4) or spirits with the Aura Masking
power (p. 98) may attempt to synchronize their aura with
a ward in such a way. In order to synchronize one’s aura so
it mimics a ward’s creator, the synchronizing magician or
spirit must be able to see the creator’s aura to use as a reference.
One way to do this is to track the astral link present
between a ward and its creator (see Astral Tracking, p. 185,
SR4). Then an Opposed Test is made between the initiate’s
Intuition + Magic + initiate grade and the ward’s Force x
2. If the intruding magician succeeds, the ward no longer
inhibits them. If the ward wins, it continues to inhibit the
intruding magician, but does not alert its creator until the
intruding magician tries to force his way through by another
method."
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Fun thing to do with Masking is capture the aura of a mage you hate, make your aura match theirs, kill some people with spells and watch their rep go to hell. If your roll was good enough on masking it would require a high degree of successes to notice it was fake. My first post on the forums was after my mage killed the Johnson that tried to kill us on a job he hired us for. I had 6 successes on masking my aura, so the investigators would have needed 3 hits to see the aura and another 6 on top of that to see it was a fake aura. If you magic and initiation are really high, you can make it near impossible for someone to tell who you really are.
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Fun thing to do with Masking is capture the aura of a mage you hate, make your aura match theirs, kill some people with spells and watch their rep go to hell. If your roll was good enough on masking it would require a high degree of successes to notice it was fake. My first post on the forums was after my mage killed the Johnson that tried to kill us on a job he hired us for. I had 6 successes on masking my aura, so the investigators would have needed 3 hits to see the aura and another 6 on top of that to see it was a fake aura. If you magic and initiation are really high, you can make it near impossible for someone to tell who you really are.
i kinda feel bad for correcting everyone but, it is flexible signature to have your aura "appear" as someone elses not masking i think this is where the confusion about matching a ward was prevously in this post.
so yeah you need flexible signature aswell as you dont actually get to roll you just get your initiation grade above the threshold of 3 (to detect your aura) in order for them to see your fake on. yes this works quite well once you get higher grade. rank 5 initiate you need a threshold of 8 on your assensing test which would mean to reliably detect it they would need 24 dice on an assensing test (i dont even think that is possible).
Pg 198 SR4A
"When someone attempts to assense a faked signature, add
the faking magician’s initiate grade to the Assensing Test threshold.
So if a grade 2 initiate leaves a forged astral signature, another
magician would need to score only 3 hits as usual to see the fake
signature, but would need 5 hits to realize the signature was fake"
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Don't feel bad, my brain is dead lately. It would help if I had my sheet in front of me instead of White Night. Dresden takes away from all logical thoughts, sitting in my recliner with my laptop up on a day off doesn't help either heh.
Masking: A character who learns masking can change the appearance
of her aura/astral form to do the following: look mundane, look
as though her Magic is higher or lower than it is (+/– your grade of
initiation), or look as though she is a different type of astral creature.
When someone attempts to assense the aura of an initiate
using masking, make an Assensing + Intuition Opposed Test
against the initiate’s Intuition + Magic + initiate grade. If they
get fewer hits, they see only the false aura. If they get more hits,
they will see both the illusory aura she provided and her true aura.
To disguise her astral form to look like a spirit or other astrally
active creature, the character must be capable of astral projection.
Use Masking to make your aura that of an awakened animal, same effect as the Flex just they will wonder how an awakened animal was lobbing mana balls around at people. They will have a good idea it is fake but if it fades before they can check it they get jack on it. That is what I did to the johnson, used our Doc's awakened wolf's aura as my own and was walking around with 6 hits on my roll. Someone would have needed 7 hits to see my aura for what it is, 9 hits to notice the aura and see it as a fake.
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just to get back the the OP's questions ill summarise some stuff.
first off all my recomendation is to throw in the occasional countermage even with 9 dice in counterspell provides resistance to all NPC's in LOS of the mage, helps drastically reduce the effectiveness of spells.
Second is drones: in order to hit a drone with a direct combat spell you have to get more net hits then its Object resistance which is generally 5 or 6 meaning a mage would need 6 or 7 hits on spellcasting respecitivly to achieve 1 net hit. making spells vs drones hard (not sure the specific mechanics of this rule so it would need to be looked up), and they are immune to mana spells so the drain is higher also puttiing more stress on your mage pc's.
the third is areas where mundane guards would be have a small area ward even F4 drastically helps. like a guardhouse on the driveway have it warded no spirits can enter (or it sets alarm off) any spell cast through the ward has its force reduced by the force of the ward so you F5 spells are now F1.
astral patrolling watchers, or full scale spirits. to warn the mage if they detect anything.
Remember casting spells is generally illegal without a license especially combat spells, most mages dont get fake licenses for them. and they are trackable if the mage doesnt spend complex actions to erase the spell (i beeleive its complex actions equal to the force), most players that forget this will also be forgetting the license. might wanna remind them, or have a lone star show up at their door and fine them. this canalso easily be cross refrenced to active or passive PANS in the area with some leg work on Knight Errants side which could result in a Burnt SIN and maybe even loss of a lifestyle.
i would be leary about using the Rigger room for a mage (the one with the optical cables) unless the mage is warded the players could easily summon a spirit and have it (or 2 spirits) go attack the mage and kill him or knock him unconsious, and if it is warded they can track any of the mages that made the ward (which will be more then that 1 cause he cant work 24/7) and they need access to the ward to. so then they mask and walk through the ward. again knock him unconsious or kill him. and if the mage does it himself... i can see the whole facilty and cast spells everywhere.
Spiders. makes any B&E a Nightmare even for non mage parties. throw some drones in for some more fun.
thats all i can think of ATM ill post more if i can think of it
Naielo
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One weakness of the panic room is that the mage has to know where to look. Once combat (and reports over comms) start that ends, of course. But prior to that there's the need for a perception test given the dozens (hundreds?) of windows that need watching.
Drones have one weakness that makes lightning bolt a good spell choice. They have to roll body + armor (+ nonconduct) against the attacks. Fail, and they shut down for several combat turns. The doberman, a frequent combat drone choice, gets a whopping 9 dice basic. Maxed armor and non-conduct it's 21 dice for ~7 hits. How easy do you think it is to get over 7 DV?
Point is that relying on drones for anti-mage work is problematic.
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One weakness of the panic room is that the mage has to know where to look. Once combat (and reports over comms) start that ends, of course. But prior to that there's the need for a perception test given the dozens (hundreds?) of windows that need watching.
Drones have one weakness that makes lightning bolt a good spell choice. They have to roll body + armor (+ nonconduct) against the attacks. Fail, and they shut down for several combat turns. The doberman, a frequent combat drone choice, gets a whopping 9 dice basic. Maxed armor and non-conduct it's 21 dice for ~7 hits. How easy do you think it is to get over 7 DV?
Point is that relying on drones for anti-mage work is problematic.
This really isn't a problem with layered security (The NSA wrote a paper on it (http://au.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkmeelHRODUoAs3oL5gt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByZWgwN285BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkAw--/SIG=12bbklrbs/EXP=1316291870/**http%3a//www.nsa.gov/ia/_files/support/defenseindepth.pdf), but it's just basic security mechanics that have been in use since well before Roman times)
Basically, layer your security.
- Have motion sensors and other triggers for notifications of issues with a room (Drones, Pressure sensors, thermal signature, awakened ivy etc)
- Have these sensors trigger alarms to direct attention
- Have mage spy on room with Mage-sight Fibre-optics....
- Stunball room
- Send in Paracritters/Security to mop up
Note: Electricity on drones isn't a damaging effect.
- Lightning Bolt, is an Electrical attack which is always Stun damage (SR4A p.163,164)
- Drones/Vehicles are immunt to stun damage (SR4A p.167 under Condition Monitor)
However the Shut-down component of the attack is excellent. I'm just clarifying that DV is irrelevent.
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Where in the book did it say you couldn't put a barrier in a barrier or visa versa? I'm curious because a PC tried that with me and I let it slide. <.<'
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Wards are exclusive...IDN about barriers
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Wards are exclusive...IDN about barriers
I thought a "Ward" was a Mana Barrier..... if not
then what's a ward!!?!?!?
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Pg 124 of Street Magic.
Wards are Exclusive
Wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area
of astral space. Magicians seeking redundant astral security
measures will often put a series of wards in place, much
like a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through,
but they cannot place multiple wards on the same space in
an effort to make intrusion exponentially more difficult.
Attempting to place a new ward where it would intersect
with another ward results in the new ward simply failing.
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Pg 124 of Street Magic.
Wards are Exclusive
Wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area
of astral space. Magicians seeking redundant astral security
measures will often put a series of wards in place, much
like a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through,
but they cannot place multiple wards on the same space in
an effort to make intrusion exponentially more difficult.
Attempting to place a new ward where it would intersect
with another ward results in the new ward simply failing.
Word Intersect makes me wander, if ward within a ward is considered legal?
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Pg 124 of Street Magic.
Wards are Exclusive
Wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area
of astral space. Magicians seeking redundant astral security
measures will often put a series of wards in place, much
like a gauntlet an intruder would have to pass through,
but they cannot place multiple wards on the same space in
an effort to make intrusion exponentially more difficult.
Attempting to place a new ward where it would intersect
with another ward results in the new ward simply failing.
Word Intersect makes me wander, if ward within a ward is considered legal?
The first sentence makes it say yes it is. But it all depends on your GM, some would looks at it and say they do, though a whole building that is warded then inside of the building individual rooms warded again, well it would make the whole building a beacon yelling "Come and screw with me" in the astral. Also the cost for warding the building would be nuts. There is also the fact that inside of the ward you have to have a focal point for the ward, if you have several focal points in a room it could be seen as overlapping. Plus all it takes is a single guy walking in moving everything 1/2 a cm in any direction to cause it all to fail. A spiting with the Quake ability is murder on all wards.
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- Lightning Bolt, is an Electrical attack which is always Stun damage (SR4A p.163,164)
Except when it isn't.
Like Lightning set of combat spells, that are explicitly Physical damage.
Or an adepts melee attack with elemental strike.
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Going back to the physical and mana spell confusion:
Physical spells are almost always indirect spells, so thats simple to explain and understand. Shoot, roll opposed test like a ranged attack, done. Can only be cast on the physical plane so on and so forth.
Whereas the mana spells as stated in their description can "only be cast on the astral plane". Typically the way this is solved is simply the magician astrally perceives, making the magician dual-natured and astrally perceive auras. Allowing 'legal' targeting and spellcasting. Thats the way I've been playing it, and thats how I make my players play it since nobody can seem to explain to me how looking at someone physically lets you target their astral aura without astral perception. Which allows more balance in my games since it decreases the physical capabilities of the perceiving mage and leaves him/her at the mercy of astral cover like mana storms or domains much like fog and rain in physical space.
One interesting though I've always had was making a mana version of the invisibility spell, allowing you to turn your aura completely invisible to prevent mana targeting. Yes the spell still outlines your aura with the spells mana, but then the mage has to dispell the invisibility spell first before he can target your aura, it really sticks it to the mage since you can't indirectly fire stunballs even if you know exactly where their aura should be.
Now as for how to shut down your nasty mages lets assume a few things that are typical:
-Stunball is mastered
-Low counterspell dice
-Has Centering
-Has a few Foci
-One or two Physical spells
Now if we break down simple responses to shut those down
-Stunball
-Mana visibility modifiers, not using this is like saying astral space is a calm and sunny day, everyday
-Any form of counterspelling
-Cut physical LOS
-Any drone
-Give the leuitenant Magic Resist 4 quality
-Low counterspell dice
-Any mage with stunball and counterspelling
-Spirits with magical Guard and counterspelling
-Enemy projecting mages, chances are they aren't percieving 24/7
-If has low banishing as well, throw an enemy possesion spirit
-Centering
-Have a guard go "He's chanting! Mage! Call Ares anti-mage division!" and everyone evac
-Have mage cast silence on chanter
-Shoot the legs of the dancer
-Has a few Foci
-Have a patrol mage spot him randomly, even when not lit it's like having alot of cyberware going through an MAD scanner.
-Give a grunt spell knack (Disrupt sustaining focus)
-Shoot the foci, a single bullet hit will make unusable for 90% of most runs
-One or two physical spells
-Visibility modifiers
-Throw dust in their eyes, forcing them to perceive astrally and not cast physically or shoot blind
Now all those are simple solutions you can throw at 'overpowered' mages, and most of them you obviously can't use all the time, but every now and then isn't bad and I'm hoping it will just give other people more ideas to add on their own. Wards themselves aren't very useful since there are so many ways in and around it and it takes alot of time to establish, but if I read correctly there aren't any rules about stacking mana barriers over each other like from spells.
One of my favorite responses to mages that think they can just spellcast their way out of everything is after about 2-3 runs they stunball everyone on the mission that was a threat I throw a guard that recognizes the mage somehow, either trained to 'feel' for astral presences (Many high end guards are) and they call in Ares Anti-Mage squad. That may not exist in the books, but it's damn well believable. I typically put them as a subsidiary assisting firewatch, but thats besides the point, send in some designated anti-mage squad.
Here's how I justify it. Regular guards are trained to secure personel and wait for back-up, not fight. Thus the call. Even if they are trained to fight to the death, if they KNOW that a team of mundanes can't do anything against a spirit why would they stay and fight a mage that has a reputation for destruction like that. I make them evacuate the building and secure it from outside. So yes the runners get what they came for, but no amount of stunballs are gonna get them out of the building with both the regular security, backup, and the newly arriving anti-mage squad, they have to give up early.
Now how I play the anti-mage squad is I have about 2 mages and 3 bodyguards for said mage. One is a spellcaster focus and the other a spirit focus. The spellcasters only real offensive spell is stunball as well, but has alot of anti-mage spells like disrupt sustaining focus, mana barrier, bind, offensive mana barrier, silence and the like. I usually make the list of spells chain together like sense removal(sight)-(When they project or astrally percieve)Mana barrier (5 meters around mage)-Offensive mana barrier (2 meters around mage, causing damage if tries to get out)-Offensive mana barrier(1 meter around mage if still resisting to contain and kill astrally). These are just my ideas and I tailor most of them to games I run or play since everyone has different rules on how each spell works. But I think that the only real reason mages become a problem is because you don't give them enough opposition to deal with. "There's always a bigger fish" is what I like to use. If you're a big bad stunballing mage, then chances are theres an equally big bad stunballing mage thats not only as good at stunballing, but he can counterspell with shielding metamagic and a shielding foci. That 14 dice pool for stunball doesn't look so tough against 22 defense pool.
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From the 20th core book.
Whereas the mana spells as stated in their description can "only be cast on the astral plane". Typically the way this is solved is simply the magician astrally perceives, making the magician dual-natured and astrally perceive auras. Allowing 'legal' targeting and spellcasting. Thats the way I've been playing it, and thats how I make my players play it since nobody can seem to explain to me how looking at someone physically lets you target their astral aura without astral perception. Which allows more balance in my games since it decreases the physical capabilities of the perceiving mage and leaves him/her at the mercy of astral cover like mana storms or domains much like fog and rain in physical space.
You are half right, you have to be able to see what you are targeting, so if something is astral and you are in the physical plane you two are not touching. If they are astral and you are dual you can target each other. Mana spells can be cast anywhere but they are the only spells that can hurt things that are astral. A spirit that is astral that you see while perceiving is open game to all of your mana spells. A spirit that manifests is open to your mana and physical spells but mana is best for dealing with spirits.
"A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence."
"Spell Type is either mana (M) or physical (P). Mana spells affect
their targets through the mana that permeates the astral and physical
planes—affecting the target in a magical and spiritual manner that is
only effectively resisted by the Willpower of a living or magical being.
Physical spells directly target the body; resistance relies on the target’s
Body attribute. Only mana spells can affect astral forms. Either type of
spell may be used in the physical world, but mana spells cannot affect
non-living targets."
So I was wrong, aura's can't be targeted while astral. But here is the thing you can manifest while astral, you can't be hit with anything mundane and physical, only mana spells can hit you.
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- Lightning Bolt, is an Electrical attack which is always Stun damage (SR4A p.163,164)
Except when it isn't.
Like Lightning set of combat spells, that are explicitly Physical damage.
Or an adepts melee attack with elemental strike.
Errr, WTF is a 'Lightning set of Combat spells'?
All Lightning spells are listed as electrical attacks. Electrical attacks do Stun damage.
Logical inheritance remains consistent.
Adepts have a slight deviation in that Killing Hands gives the option to perform P or S, however the Elemental strike power says you get to utilise an elemental damage type.
Electricity damage type deals stun damage.
For the Adept, it depends on what your GM says is stronger:
- The Killing Hands power, or
- the Elemental Strike power
My view is if a PC deliberately wants an Electricity damage type, then that damage type works as written. Stun damage. However YMMV.
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What damage type is listed RAW in Lightning bolt description? To end this pointless discussion?
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These spells create and direct vicious strikes of electricity that cause Electricity damage (p. 163). Lightning Bolt is a single target spell. Ball Lightning is an area spell.
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These spells create and direct vicious strikes of electricity that cause Electricity damage (p. 163). Lightning Bolt is a single target spell. Ball Lightning is an area spell.
So damage value is not listed? Even in compiled tables?
Word "vicious"...my english again...would it work with stun damage?
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What damage type is listed RAW in Lightning bolt description? To end this pointless discussion?
Lightning Bolt (Indirect, Elemental)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Damage: P • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
Ball Lightning (Indirect, Elemental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS (A) • Damage: P • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 5
These spells create and direct vicious strikes of electricity that cause
Electricity damage (p. 163). Lightning Bolt is a single target spell. Ball
Lightning is an area spell.
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What damage type is listed RAW in Lightning bolt description? To end this pointless discussion?
Lightning Bolt (Indirect, Elemental)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Damage: P • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
Ball Lightning (Indirect, Elemental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS (A) • Damage: P • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 5
These spells create and direct vicious strikes of electricity that cause
Electricity damage (p. 163). Lightning Bolt is a single target spell. Ball
Lightning is an area spell.
OK. Problem solved. Physical damage + Elemental effect...