Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Faradon on <09-22-10/1206:16>
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I've seen several posts between SRM discussions, Dumpshock, and here discussing how to keep balance during advancement between awakened and mundane characters. Some have suggested letting the mundane folks trade karma for money (2500/karma) during play and other such things.
My question revolves around the opposite approach. As campaigns continue and players start making better money, what are mages doing with their cut of the money? I would expect this to be especially problematic at the point where enough money is being accumulated for people to start buying deltaware.
I suppose I am also making the assumption that the mage won't want to implant deltaware themself... but what's really to buy other than a couple of foci? What would keep mages running the shadows anywhere near that point if they have that kind of money to retire on?
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You could think about enchanting, or Alchemy, opening a magic shop, investing in rare books dealing in the Arcane, founding a magic group, investing in a wide array of spells? I think there is more than enough to keep a spellcaster investing money on pace with those that would need Bio/cyber ware.
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Why did that mage start running the shadows in the first place (instead of getting a kushy job somewhere as a contract magical consultant, or doing wards for money, or something)? Have the circumstances that forced 'em to illegal, dangerous, high-risk, work changed?
Why do the OTHER characters (mundane, Adepts, or otherwise) keep running the shadows when they've got enough money to retire? There's no rule that says anyone has to constantly upgrade instead of saving up their money to quit, mage or anyone else.
It takes a character hook to want to be a shadowrunner, and that same 'hook' should keep most characters in the shadows, regardless of their general archetype, or the amount of money they've made. If it's in character for you to run the shadows this week, is a fat credstick the only thing keeping you from retiring, really?
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You could think about enchanting, or Alchemy, opening a magic shop, investing in rare books dealing in the Arcane, founding a magic group, investing in a wide array of spells? I think there is more than enough to keep a spellcaster investing money on pace with those that would need Bio/cyber ware.
Most of those suggestions will not help with game play. Opening a magic shop and investing in rare books dealing in the Arcane are just money sinks. Not useful for the game. Founding a magic group is just a Karma sink. By the point Faradon is talking about you have either already spent the Karma to do that or have joined another magic group. And should have at least 2 levels of initiation under your belt. Alchemy is just a knowledge skill and therefor useless. Enchanting is only a money sink in the costs of the materials. And you are only going to create so many foci unless you are planning on selling them and making more money. And it is also a Karma sink. You would need a decently high level of enchanting to make anything worth while. As for buying a vast array of spells, there really are only so many you need. After a certain point it is just throwing money away. And I don't think that is what Faradon is looking for either.
Spell slingers do end up at a point where there is nothing left to buy other than lifestyle. Buying upgraded foci is a good thing though. You can only hold spells in something up to the rating of the foci. So if you are at a point where people are able to buy delta ware, I would start looking for some force 7 or 8 foci to play with. Turn off the others and have fun with some that can really hold a spell for you, help with drain, increase your power ect. And start saving for retirement. I mean what caster wouldn't like a nice house to retire to? And if your a shaman, think of the nice force 8 lodge you could build in your own home. And ritual casting is so much easier on familiar territory.
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My mage (and my gf's adept) loans money out to the rest of the team. We're like a bank. If the rigger or weapon specialist needs an extra bit of cash for something they come to us.
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Cash for karma, and the inverse, can be useful rules, BUT balancing cash-dependent characters (samurai, hackers, etc.) vs. karma-dependent characters (mages, technomancers) is a balancing act as it is, so if you do use this rule, factor it in when you are balancing out cash and karma payouts. And remember that mages may be karma sinks, but they have potentially unlimited advancement, and at the higher levels of karma they can potentially become broken.
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Who says that a mage can't buy a 800,000 nuyen Luftschiffbau Zeppelin LZ-2065 to trick out as a massive flying fortress of doom?
Where is that written?
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Who says that a mage can't buy a 800,000 nuyen Luftschiffbau Zeppelin LZ-2065 to trick out as a massive flying fortress of doom?
Where is that written?
As my Street Sam ChromeMonger would say; "Right here on my Willy Pete grenade launcher." :D
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Ok, lets not forget one thing about money: there is NEVER "too much". One never knows when a stray bulllit will give you a month stay at the resident medical facility, and esepcially for magically active IT AINT CHEAP. And lets not forget things like expenes, need to pay off a smuggler to get you out of the Azzie bush? Or to pay off that Mafia Don when you "accidently" fireball his limo...
The list goes on. Money may no have a direct impact on a magic user, but it can make life a lot easier.
Oh, and about that Willie Pete VS Zep...That launcher must have NICE range. Now a rocket launcher on the other hand....
8)
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Given how much more valuable Karma is to awakened characters than money is to mundane characters, a Cash for Karma rule would have to be done and an outlandish exchange rate. That's why I've never liked the idea.
I feel this quote sums it up best:
"Mages with too much money should just be doing what any good rich Magician would do. Models."
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Oh, and about that Willie Pete VS Zep...That launcher must have NICE range. Now a rocket launcher on the other hand....
8)
not if yer on one of those big buildin's it's floatin over. heh
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Following on from the comment above about the mage being the bank in his game,
How about a exchange of cash for karma between players, now karma is inportant to both so there should be a fair exchange maybe 10,000 per point of karma.
Example
Sam the Sam is Karma rich but money poor and finds himself 20k short for that piece of chrome he's after. Now he could just wait up abit and get it with the proceeds from the next run or two but thats just too long to wait. Sam goes to his friend Mark whos a mage and asks if he can exchange some of his Karma (for which Mark is in need of) for some cash (which Mark has more then he thinks he needs). The 20k cash is given to Sam and Mark gets two points of karma from Sam.
This would give everybody a way to share out the rewards of a run to those who need it and I dont think it would alter the balance to much really
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I do a single exchange of a single karma for cash (and vice versa) per adventure/mission. Players can exchange karma between themselves for a similar fee (5k nuyen minimum), but only for a single point per set of player exchange. So, if one mage wanted 5 karma extra from the adventure, he could buy one at the set rate (5k nuyen) from the GM, and could buy one from each of four (4) other players at the table, for a minimum fee of 5k nuyen each or 20k nuyen total.
This makes it more expensive than build points (since each is effectively worth 2 karma and can buy 5k nuyen, themselves). However, if the players need a bit more cash, then it works in their favor. I've always felt that money is a bit easier to come by, but then, I'm the one of the ones who began selling taxi drivers as meat to the local street doc. (Get a taxi ride to a street doc, shoot the driver in the face, take body inside to doc, walk out with money, what could be easier?)
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I can't do the cash for karma thing. It makes no sense to me. Karma is supposed to be an abstract representation of your life, lessons learned, and experience. You can't buy that. (Yeah, yeah, skillwires, not the same thing.) Another thing we've done is used our money to pimp out our houses. We've filled them with security death bots, DNArt, and other crap. Hell, I've been debating putting in a money pool a la Scrooge McDuck.
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I can't do the cash for karma thing. It makes no sense to me. Karma is supposed to be an abstract representation of your life, lessons learned, and experience. You can't buy that. (Yeah, yeah, skillwires, not the same thing.) Another thing we've done is used our money to pimp out our houses. We've filled them with security death bots, DNArt, and other crap. Hell, I've been debating putting in a money pool a la Scrooge McDuck.
From a role play and fluff perspective, My idea revolves around the Karma transfer being the goodwill / positive effect of you helping someone out the mechanics of the transfer are just crunch.
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Still, it just doesn't sit well with me. Ah well, being the team bank has worked well so far. Lots of business from the rigger and weapon specialists and very fair interest rates. :D
I'm just glad our technomancer is our rigger, otherwise we'd be having this problem with her as well. But she spends all her cash on drones and vehicles.
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I always find it kind of funny that when my mage went slumming it means they were staying at the middle lifestyle apartment. Then again it's kinda karma as my rigger had to live in his van. My pysad has a respectable custom lifestyle for now.
There's always stuff to do with money, smoozing contacts, buying extra SINs, setting up safehouses, pimping your ride, buying guns that makes the sammie :'(
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From a role play and fluff perspective, My idea revolves around the Karma transfer being the goodwill / positive effect of you helping someone out the mechanics of the transfer are just crunch.
The thing is Karma in Shadowrun isn't like the traditional religious concept of Karma.
It's just Shadowrun's fancy talk for Experience Points. In some of the older adventures they tried to "force" players into making "good" decisions as opposed to "evil" ones, but in the end they realized that was kinda silly since the characters are murderers and thieves by nature. "Oh no, don't kill those guys, they're plot related and you're supposed to like them, But it's cool to slaughter those wage slave security guards just doing their jobs to feed their families."
if the system was actually Karma, the players would never advance, lol. They'd be building up so much negative energy they'd be getting weaker.
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That's why they should turn to the worship of Satan. Turn that evil into profit!
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Oh, and about that Willie Pete VS Zep...That launcher must have NICE range. Now a rocket launcher on the other hand....
8)
not if yer on one of those big buildin's it's floatin over. heh
Bah. Nothing but multiple manabolts could take it down, and, even then, they'd have to bypass the counterspelling of the $$$mage$$$, (who naturally has a R6 Counterspelling focus, since he's just shitting out money.)
Conventional weapons check:
Less than 30k buys 20 hardened armor and 10 smart armor (adds +10 to attacking weapon's AP.) Also it leaves 33 more mod slots to be filled.
Easy: WP does 8P -half. Even without the smart armor, 8<10 so it's unscathed on a direct hit.
Medium: Missiles? Like you can *hit* anything with missiles... even so, AV rocket, direct hit 16P -6 becomes 16 vs 20 after the smart armor deflects it. Ping! Nothing!
Hard: Gauss rifle? 9P -half +10 -4ap so it needs 8 hits to beat the adjusted hardened armor of 16. Well, 4 hits if you allow called shots for damage against vehicles. But since we're talking about a ridiculous vehicle for "the mage who already has everything," naturally the Chameleon Coating and constantly projected Thermal Smoke shroud ought to lower the DP a bit more before the riggers massive Command pool was used to dodge.
0_o )Insane mode: Taurus Light Gauss Cannon? 14P -half +10 -8. That's 14P vs the modified hardened armor of 12. Success! So, all your Chrome Monger friend needs is a 200,000¥ 25F Main Gun and the element of surprise. Even then, the Zep has 26 physical damage boxes and soaks with 48 dice..
Until then. Der Ende Ballonen rules the skies!
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For me, the karma for cash thing represents some of the player's actions during downtime between missions. They either worked on cashing in some favors, or worked off a small personal debt (karma for money), or they put some time in doing a favor for someone or invested in some goodwill or they just spent the time working out/studying with the right equipment (money for karma).
It's a timesaving device I use for downtime that eliminates some bookkeeping and small time roleplaying that would otherwise detract from the group as a whole. If someone wanted to bluebook or do a small side run for personal reasons, they'd be getting a lot more karma or cash/favors than the simple 1 karma/5k nuyen.
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Guys, we are not using our imaginations here. It cost money to initiate. What about those Magical Group dues? What happens when they get sloppy with their money and some hackers fries their account? What happens when the Yakuza boy you pissed off finds one of your expensive safehouses and blows it up? Maybe he blows up two and your nice car? How about a hobby in enchanting, or even if they have a talismonger on call, what happens when mister R6 power focus needs an expedition down to Amazonia. Who is going to fund that?!?
Point is, an inventive GM will always have things for PC's to spend money on. If they have "too much money", you might be going a bit too easy on your players. This is Shadowrun and nothing is forever. They should have to earn that retirement. What the Shadowrun world givith, it damn well will taketh away!!
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It doesn't cost money to Initiate.
I've been spending more money on Enchanting lately. Don't know why. I just make things then sell them ending up with more money than I started with. Oh well, it's fun.
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It doesn't cost money to Initiate.
I've been spending more money on Enchanting lately. Don't know why. I just make things then sell them ending up with more money than I started with. Oh well, it's fun.
It doesn't? I would say you are incorrect (or at least that I disagree totally). There are many fluff expenses to initiate. Initiation is not just "Oh I spend the Karma and initiate." No, you have to prepare yourself mentally and physically and emotionally. You may have to do research or write a thesis.
Hell. Bold is me. From SR4A
Initiation is a serious process that requires a great deal of
mental and spiritual preparation in the form of rituals or study appropriate
to the character’s tradition. A mage might spend months in
research on a particular point of magic, writing a scholarly thesis in
order to prepare, while a shaman might undergo a vision quest and
seek guidance from her mentor spirit.
If you are not charging mages and Shamans for initiation (BTW, you gonna initiate by yourself? You still need to buy materials, otherwise see Magical Group and dues. As a GM, I would charge initiation fees as well.) Like I said, Initiation isn't just "I spend karma and it happens". All downtime activities have some sort of price. This could be time, money or both!
Like I said, not having things for mages, or and PC for that matter, to spend money on is a lack of imagination. I mean hell, you can learn metamagic without initiation. Who you gonna learn that from? Probably a program or a teacher. You gonna get that for free? Of course not. There is no listed cost but let us use some common sense here. Point is, if you read between the lines (Not that hard) you will see a bunch of cost for initiation. You don't have to have played SR as long as I have to see that!
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A thesis could be typed up on a commlink. Nothing says it can't be.
But I always just rolled Initiation costs into Lifestyle costs. Figuring that the time spent on Initiation hoohah means that the character is spending less time on other things (like partying and maybe even eating) and can thus roll that money into any Initiation costs they may have. This is especially true for Initiation trial like asceticism and the like. What would you need to spend cash on for that? Sackcloth?
Downtime stuff I also roll into Lifestyle for the most part. Unless it's something like new gear or the like.
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A thesis could be typed up on a commlink. Nothing says it can't be.
But I always just rolled Initiation costs into Lifestyle costs. Figuring that the time spent on Initiation hoohah means that the character is spending less time on other things (like partying and maybe even eating) and can thus roll that money into any Initiation costs they may have. This is especially true for Initiation trial like asceticism and the like. What would you need to spend cash on for that? Sackcloth?
Downtime stuff I also roll into Lifestyle for the most part. Unless it's something like new gear or the like.
Ritual clothing, preparation, materials, etc, etc. Really, I could go on. And seriously, I don't think the a thesis written on a commlink is going to be proper for initiation. You know, the separation of magic and tech. Runners should have to pay for most things, otherwise you run into this problem of PC's having too much money. We don't have that problem in my games. ;)
Rolling them into Lifestyle is a good reason why your mages have nothing to spend money on. Initiation should not come from Lifestyle. It is an additional thing that is totally separate from Lifestyle cost. Skill learning is separate, increasing an attribute still requires time and a show of actively trying to increase that stat, learning magic cost money, joining a magic group cost money (I mean come on, Self-Initiation is a karma hole), gear cost money, summoning and binding spirits cost money....
Again, if you use a little imagination then PC's have plenty of things to spend nuyen on. Rolling it into lifestyle is just giving it to them way too easy.
But this is just semantics and Your Campaign May Vary. :)
Edit: Lol, and yeah. Asceticism wouldn't cost the mage too much. :)
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I think a lot of it would vary by Tradition and personal outlook. Some Traditions and Awakened would be more into the pomp and ceremony than others. For instance, I don't see why it wouldn't be acceptable to write a thesis on a 'link for a hermetic or chaos mage. They write spell formulae on them. And I can't really see why a Shaman or Hedge Witch would spend much on special Initiation doodads when all they'd probably want are some rat bones and ditch weeds.
But I have considered this before. Mostly I work it out with my players and if they and I can see their character going for the pomp then I factor in their Lifestyle and if I don't think it can absorb it (like if you're living on the street) and it fits with their Tradition and outlook then I'd charge them. So far, it hasn't required that.
Of course, I haven't had much Initiating yet, so we'll see how it goes as the game progresses.
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Chaos mages would be all over using a commlink to write a thesis.
Probably have to write a computer program to help with AR targeting of spells.
There are plenty of things a mage can spend money on though, like giant beasties to use as vessels for their ally spirit.
A Juggernaut is going to cost you 1,500,000¥ A Cerberus hound 80,000¥.
There is no such thing as money you can't spend, and Karma-hungry builds are karma-hungry because when you feed them karma, they become stupidly powerful so feeding them extra karma for cash is destabilizing.
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And cash hungry builds need cash, so feeding them cash for karma is destabilizing? The argument doesn't follow, as both types show equal gains.
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Karma-hungry builds are karma-hungry because when you feed them karma, they become stupidly powerful so feeding them extra karma for cash is destabilizing.
This.
The Karma building characters becomes absurdly powerful enough as is. There's really no need to inflate them faster unless you're purposefully trying to accelerate the power curve of your game. Then you might as well just have them generate better characters or hand them a giant block of Karma and cash to upgrade themselves. But if you're allowing Awakened characters to buy Karma using money, you're just going to cause them to improve at a much faster rate than the non-Awakened characters. They're already getting stronger faster than anyone else. Cash for Karma just translates that to even faster.
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Their powers can also be completely neutralized by the unscrupulous or tech savvy. Anti-wireless coatings and hard tech neuters technomancers (to a large and significant degree) and FAB III is a (relatively) cheap way to keep magic types grounded. Not to mention that any essence loss translates directly into unrecoverable power loss. Not so for the cash guys. Lose some cyber to an EMP? Just buy new. Your custom drone crashed and burned after taking a missile hit? Go buy another. Oh, mage, you just lost a magic point forever? Shucks, it sucketh to be you.
They karma hungry types are potent, but they can lose it all if they aren't careful. The cash flow guys just need to buy more. To get stronger, they go shopping. To replace lost powers, they go shopping. To correct essence lost through cyber or bio, they go shopping.
Not saying that the karma users aren't potent and get more potent, cause they do (and how)! I'm just supplying a little perspective, here.
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I just think Karma for cash is just a really bad idea. I have plenty of things I can dump on runners to relieve them of all the temporary money.
Nothing is Shadowrun is easily obtained or easily kept.
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Which is still easily replaced. For those of questionable morals, running BTL's, drugs, or organlegging (including the wetwork side of it) is extremely profitable. Money can flow like water in SR. While they might not hold onto it long, they can dip into the money stream and get some neat toys and upgrades out of it.
I don't agree with simply taking the money away on a whim, or deciding that they have too much of it. Present a scenario, and leave the choice of what to do with the cash up to the players. Of course, sometimes an adversary will come along that the only thing one can do is watch the money leave, but I don't recommend that as a way to "balance" cash flow.
If you don't like the karma for cash, that's fine. It's not for everyone. I just like the flexibility and choice it gives to my players.
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Which is still easily replaced. For those of questionable morals, running BTL's, drugs, or organlegging (including the wetwork side of it) is extremely profitable. Money can flow like water in SR. While they might not hold onto it long, they can dip into the money stream and get some neat toys and upgrades out of it.
I don't agree with simply taking the money away on a whim, or deciding that they have too much of it. Present a scenario, and leave the choice of what to do with the cash up to the players. Of course, sometimes an adversary will come along that the only thing one can do is watch the money leave, but I don't recommend that as a way to "balance" cash flow.
If you don't like the karma for cash, that's fine. It's not for everyone. I just like the flexibility and choice it gives to my players.
Dude, I don't even have to be cruel GM to think of ways money can disappear in Shadowrun.
Hell, money should be tight for the PC's anyway! Maybe I am just an old skool Shadowrun GM but having too much money should not be a problem unless they paid for that money in character creation with a lifestyle choice!
Shadowrun is still dystopia right? Still SINless (a money dump in itself) individuals trying to eke a living while sticking it to the man right? I guess I am saying that figuring out where to spend all of the money should be the least of their problems! Pissed off corps, rival runner teams, paying to stay anonymous, pissed off organized crime when those enterprising Shadowrunners start selling drugs and undercutting the big boys.
As much as I think karma for cash is a bad idea, I don't even see where I would have to use that!
I think some of you may be paying your runners too much money! ;)
But like I always say, your campaign may vary! If you are having fun with Shadowrun, that is really all that matters.
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Besides, the idea of runners constantly shopping for bigger and better toys is a fantasy unless your campaign is dumping boatloads of money in their laps.
How much better of a gun can a samurai buy? How many runs is he going to have to complete before he can afford the Betaware version of his cyberware, and then he's only made a moderate gain at best. His ammunition and grenades are expended and have to be replaced. They don't "just go shopping". Cash hungry builds are the slowest advancing types in the game unless you pay them too much. With average Karma awards a mage can learn a new spell every adventure. I somehow doubt the samurai is getting a bigger and better gun or a cyberware upgrade at anywhere near that rate.
I'd also be curious to learn how often Essence loss occurs in your campaign.
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Cash payments from Johnsons progressively increases as the runners reputation advances and their experience broadens. This allows the cash hungry players more and more opportunities to "just go shopping." Karma payments, however, stay pretty much the same mission per mission while the needs of those who use more karma become more and more pronounced. This leads to a plateau effect for the mages/technos, while those who just need cash keep advancing at a steady rate.
Essence loss doesn't occur that often at all. The meer threat of it is enough to hyper-sensitize everyone and they tend to focus on the thing that can drain essence. Mostly focus bullets.
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I really don't understand the folks that act like Mages don't need money for anything. I understand that there's a tendency for them to want karma more and mundanes to want money more -- but I think over time folks have gotten so "two party system" about it, exaggerated it, to the point where some folks are talking like mundanes only advance financially and Mages only advance through karma. Everyone needs everything, plain and simple.
Find me a Mage that's got "too much money" and I'll find you someone who's not investing properly in spell formulas, hermetic libraries, summoning/binding materials, fetish items, mundane 'running gear, and Foci. There's plenty of stuff that nickels and dimes away at a Mages nuyen, and plenty of stuff that takes giant bites out of it. I have to wonder what's getting glossed over or misunderstood or something -- maybe on my part, I dunno -- in these instances were folks talk about their Mages just rolling in nuyen.
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In my experience it's usually Adepts who hit a money cap. Mages have foci and binding components and all sorts of expenses.
I suppose Adepts usually grab some bioware, so they could blow exorbitant sums on Delta grade body bits. A lvl 3 Synaptic Accelerator is cheaper on the PPs than Improved Reflexes III. It's also the kind of thing that costs a lot of cash.
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investing in rare books dealing in the Arcane are just money sinks.
Normally my mage characters justify their cash for karma with buying rare books/artifacts/etc. I had one who used his running money to privately fund their research so it would have no outside influence.