[Dead Monky]

Still, it just doesn't sit well with me.  Ah well, being the team bank has worked well so far.  Lots of business from the rigger and weapon specialists and very fair interest rates. 

I'm just glad our technomancer is our rigger, otherwise we'd be having this problem with her as well.  But she spends all her cash on drones and vehicles.

[Angelone]

I always find it kind of funny that when my mage went slumming it means they were staying at the middle lifestyle apartment. Then again it's kinda karma as my rigger had to live in his van. My pysad has a respectable custom lifestyle for now.

There's always stuff to do with money, smoozing contacts, buying extra SINs, setting up safehouses, pimping your ride, buying guns that makes the sammie

[System]

From a role play and fluff perspective, My idea revolves around the Karma transfer being the goodwill / positive effect of you helping someone out the mechanics of the transfer are just crunch.

The thing is Karma in Shadowrun isn't like the traditional religious concept of Karma.  

It's just Shadowrun's fancy talk for Experience Points.  In some of the older adventures they tried to "force" players into making "good" decisions as opposed to "evil" ones, but in the end they realized that was kinda silly since the characters are murderers and thieves by nature.  "Oh no, don't kill those guys, they're plot related and you're supposed to like them,  But it's cool to slaughter those wage slave security guards just doing their jobs to feed their families."

if the system was actually Karma, the players would never advance, lol.  They'd be building up so much negative energy they'd be getting weaker.

[Dead Monky]

That's why they should turn to the worship of Satan.  Turn that evil into profit!

[Kontact]

Oh, and about that Willie Pete VS Zep...That launcher must have NICE range. Now a rocket launcher on the other hand....

 

not if yer on one of those big buildin's it's floatin over. heh

Bah.  Nothing but multiple manabolts could take it down, and, even then, they'd have to bypass the counterspelling of the $$$mage$$$, (who naturally has a R6 Counterspelling focus, since he's just shitting out money.)

Conventional weapons check:
Less than 30k buys 20 hardened armor and 10 smart armor (adds +10 to attacking weapon's AP.)  Also it leaves 33 more mod slots to be filled.

Easy: WP does 8P -half.  Even without the smart armor, 8<10 so it's unscathed on a direct hit.

Medium: Missiles?  Like you can *hit* anything with missiles...  even so, AV rocket, direct hit 16P -6 becomes 16 vs 20 after the smart armor deflects it.  Ping!  Nothing!

Hard: Gauss rifle? 9P -half +10 -4ap so it needs 8 hits to beat the adjusted hardened armor of 16.  Well, 4 hits if you allow called shots for damage against vehicles.  But since we're talking about a ridiculous vehicle for "the mage who already has everything," naturally the Chameleon Coating and constantly projected Thermal Smoke shroud ought to lower the DP a bit more before the riggers massive Command pool was used to dodge.

0_o )Insane mode: Taurus Light Gauss Cannon?  14P -half +10 -8.  That's 14P vs the modified hardened armor of 12.  Success!  So, all your Chrome Monger friend needs is a 200,000¥ 25F Main Gun and the element of surprise.  Even then, the Zep has 26 physical damage boxes and soaks with 48 dice..

Until then.  Der Ende Ballonen rules the skies!

[The_Gun_Nut]

For me, the karma for cash thing represents some of the player's actions during downtime between missions.  They either worked on cashing in some favors, or worked off a small personal debt (karma for money), or they put some time in doing a favor for someone or invested in some goodwill or they just spent the time working out/studying with the right equipment (money for karma).

It's a timesaving device I use for downtime that eliminates some bookkeeping and small time roleplaying that would otherwise detract from the group as a whole.  If someone wanted to bluebook or do a small side run for personal reasons, they'd be getting a lot more karma or cash/favors than the simple 1 karma/5k nuyen.

[Darkeus]

Guys, we are not using our imaginations here.  It cost money to initiate.  What about those Magical Group dues?  What happens when they get sloppy with their money and some hackers fries their account?  What happens when the Yakuza boy you pissed off finds one of your expensive safehouses and blows it up? Maybe he blows up two and your nice car?  How about a hobby in enchanting, or even if they have a talismonger on call, what happens when mister R6 power focus needs an expedition down to Amazonia.  Who is going to fund that?!?

Point is, an inventive GM will always have things for PC's to spend money on.  If they have "too much money", you might be going a bit too easy on your players.  This is Shadowrun and nothing is forever. They should have to earn that retirement.   What the Shadowrun world givith, it damn well will taketh away!!

[Dead Monky]

It doesn't cost money to Initiate.

I've been spending more money on Enchanting lately.  Don't know why.  I just make things then sell them ending up with more money than I started with.  Oh well, it's fun.

[Darkeus]

It doesn't cost money to Initiate.

I've been spending more money on Enchanting lately.  Don't know why.  I just make things then sell them ending up with more money than I started with.  Oh well, it's fun.

It doesn't?   I would say you are incorrect (or at least that I disagree totally).  There are many fluff expenses to initiate.   Initiation is not just "Oh I spend the Karma and initiate."  No, you have to prepare yourself mentally and physically and emotionally.  You may have to do research or write a thesis.

Hell.  Bold is me.  From SR4A

Initiation is a serious process that requires a great deal of
mental and spiritual preparation in the form of rituals or study appropriate
to the character’s tradition. A mage might spend months in
research on a particular point of magic, writing a scholarly thesis in
order to prepare, while a shaman might undergo a vision quest and
seek guidance from her mentor spirit.

If you are not charging mages and Shamans for initiation (BTW, you gonna initiate by yourself?  You still need to buy materials, otherwise see Magical Group and dues.  As a GM, I would charge initiation fees as well.)  Like I said, Initiation isn't just "I spend karma and it happens".  All downtime activities have some sort of price.  This could be time, money or both!

Like I said, not having things for mages, or and PC for that matter, to spend money on is a lack of imagination.  I mean hell, you can learn metamagic without initiation.  Who you gonna learn that from?  Probably a program or a teacher.  You gonna get that for free?  Of course not.  There is no listed cost but let us use some common sense here.  Point is, if you read between the lines (Not that hard) you will see a bunch of cost for initiation.  You don't have to have played SR as long as I have to see that!

[Dead Monky]

A thesis could be typed up on a commlink.  Nothing says it can't be.

But I always just rolled Initiation costs into Lifestyle costs.  Figuring that the time spent on Initiation hoohah means that the character is spending less time on other things (like partying and maybe even eating) and can thus roll that money into any Initiation costs they may have.  This is especially true for Initiation trial like asceticism and the like.  What would you need to spend cash on for that?  Sackcloth?

Downtime stuff I also roll into Lifestyle for the most part.  Unless it's something like new gear or the like.

[Darkeus]

A thesis could be typed up on a commlink.  Nothing says it can't be.

But I always just rolled Initiation costs into Lifestyle costs.  Figuring that the time spent on Initiation hoohah means that the character is spending less time on other things (like partying and maybe even eating) and can thus roll that money into any Initiation costs they may have.  This is especially true for Initiation trial like asceticism and the like.  What would you need to spend cash on for that?  Sackcloth?

Downtime stuff I also roll into Lifestyle for the most part.  Unless it's something like new gear or the like.

Ritual clothing, preparation, materials, etc, etc.  Really, I could go on.  And seriously, I don't think the a thesis written on a commlink is going to be proper for initiation.  You know, the separation of magic and tech.   Runners should have to pay for most things, otherwise you run into this problem of PC's having too much money.  We don't have that problem in my games.  

Rolling them into Lifestyle is a good reason why your mages have nothing to spend money on.  Initiation should not come from Lifestyle.  It is an additional thing that is totally separate from Lifestyle cost.  Skill learning is separate, increasing an attribute still requires time and a show of actively trying to increase that stat, learning magic cost money, joining a magic group cost money (I mean come on, Self-Initiation is a karma hole), gear cost money, summoning and binding spirits cost money....

Again, if you use a little imagination then PC's have plenty of things to spend nuyen on.  Rolling it into lifestyle is just giving it to them way too easy.  

But this is just semantics and Your Campaign May Vary.  

Edit:  Lol, and yeah.  Asceticism wouldn't cost the mage too much. 

[Dead Monky]

I think a lot of it would vary by Tradition and personal outlook.  Some Traditions and Awakened would be more into the pomp and ceremony than others.  For instance, I don't see why it wouldn't be acceptable to write a thesis on a 'link for a hermetic or chaos mage.  They write spell formulae on them.  And I can't really see why a Shaman or Hedge Witch would spend much on special Initiation doodads when all they'd probably want are some rat bones and ditch weeds.

But I have considered this before.  Mostly I work it out with my players and if they and I can see their character going for the pomp then I factor in their Lifestyle and if I don't think it can absorb it (like if you're living on the street) and it fits with their Tradition and outlook then I'd charge them.  So far, it hasn't required that.

Of course, I haven't had much Initiating yet, so we'll see how it goes as the game progresses.

[Kontact]

Chaos mages would be all over using a commlink to write a thesis. 
Probably have to write a computer program to help with AR targeting of spells.

There are plenty of things a mage can spend money on though, like giant beasties to use as vessels for their ally spirit.
A Juggernaut is going to cost you 1,500,000¥  A Cerberus hound 80,000¥. 

There is no such thing as money you can't spend, and Karma-hungry builds are karma-hungry because when you feed them karma, they become stupidly powerful so feeding them extra karma for cash is destabilizing.

[The_Gun_Nut]

And cash hungry builds need cash, so feeding them cash for karma is destabilizing?  The argument doesn't follow, as both types show equal gains.

[System]

Karma-hungry builds are karma-hungry because when you feed them karma, they become stupidly powerful so feeding them extra karma for cash is destabilizing.

This.

The Karma building characters becomes absurdly powerful enough as is.  There's really no need to inflate them faster unless you're purposefully trying to accelerate the power curve of your game.  Then you might as well just have them generate better characters or hand them a giant block of Karma and cash to upgrade themselves.  But if you're allowing Awakened characters to buy Karma using money, you're just going to cause them to improve at a much faster rate than the non-Awakened characters.  They're already getting stronger faster than anyone else.  Cash for Karma just translates that to even faster.