Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Zilfer on <12-02-11/1701:22>

Title: The topic of Money!
Post by: Zilfer on <12-02-11/1701:22>
Alright so i think I may be going overboard now looking back at the money I'm putting on for missions. These are ranging usually from 30k-100k. I'm not sure this range is right, and i'm just now implementing the Karma for Money and Visa Versa rule. Thus far no one has taken it up yet, we'll see were that goes.

Anyways, consider the pot is usually going to be split up from 3-6 ways sometimes up to 8 people if I get the full house in. So I wanted them to be able to get a fair share of money. Still feel lacking in the DMing aspect of Shadowrun but we have fun which is the important part.

An example of the highest pay one i've made currently is actually a wetwork going after a rich blood mage. (The party already hates this person, so do I since she screwed most of my friends PC wise.) Anyways figure it's going to be really dangerous especially with blood magic metamagic... o.O'

So what's your oppinions on Job offerings. I know the Johnson is supposed to try to get the job done as cheaply as possible so I should probably be giving lower offerings for missions and have them have to talk their way up. I'm also trying to forumlate different awards for completing missions besides money. Contacts are probably pretty good though I think I may be overlooking what I can do there, and who can constitute as a contact, since pretty much anyone can. With that note I've also restricted contacts to being less than connection 6 because I really don't know how to run an NPC with that much connection. xD

So anyone got examples of missions they've offered to their people and how much it was? how to gauge the money for a mission (some will be shitty pay for what you do I know). Or any missions you've gone on for yourself as players. Thanks!

Side Note: I think I may also be crippling my players with lack of being able to find info. Their legwork is limited by my imagination i'm sure so I'm not quite sure I play it up and I may withhold too much information. Tips on that? Thanks again, I love you all. Plutonically of course. :P Except CanRay..... :D
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Fizzygoo on <12-02-11/1805:16>
An example of the highest pay one i've made currently is actually a wetwork going after a rich blood mage. (The party already hates this person, so do I since she screwed most of my friends PC wise.) Anyways figure it's going to be really dangerous especially with blood magic metamagic... o.O'

So how much is the Johnson offering for this job? Since there's a 1 million ¥ bounty on blood mages a Johnson offering 100,000¥ (10%) to the group would not be out of the ordinary...assuming the Johnson wants the body to claim the bounty for him/herself.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Zilfer on <12-02-11/1808:07>
An example of the highest pay one i've made currently is actually a wetwork going after a rich blood mage. (The party already hates this person, so do I since she screwed most of my friends PC wise.) Anyways figure it's going to be really dangerous especially with blood magic metamagic... o.O'

So how much is the Johnson offering for this job? Since there's a 1 million ¥ bounty on blood mages a Johnson offering 100,000¥ (10%) to the group would not be out of the ordinary...assuming the Johnson wants the body to claim the bounty for him/herself.

If they decide to try and keep this mage alive to make it to what was it Chicago or denver? Something like that, our games in seattle so might be hard to get there and the Johnson actually wants the person dead. So they wouldn't be collecting that 1 million. Not sure i'd cross someone who can dish out a 100,000 Nuyen for a single bounty. But yeah I see your point there, but I'm thinking someone's going to die on that run they are on or at least it's going to be bloody. (they always have edge to burn)

Edit: No pun intended.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CanRay on <12-02-11/1810:07>
Bah, they get some coupons for Stuffer Shack!  They're street scum, they'll love that.  :P
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Mason on <12-02-11/1946:21>
Thanks again, I love you all. Plutonically of course. :P

It's nice to be loved 'plutonically', I guess...
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CanRay on <12-02-11/2048:12>
I'm used to not being loved.

...

...

...

 :'(
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Mason on <12-03-11/1132:54>
I'm used to not being loved.

...

...

...

 :'(

Don't worry...there must be SOMEbody out there...
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CanRay on <12-03-11/1136:37>
Don't worry...there must be SOMEbody out there...
Yeah, like Nathan Explosion and his Coma Girlfriend.

No, wait, she cheated on him.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Zilfer on <12-03-11/1247:45>
>.> you guys are hopeless sometimes... xD
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CanRay on <12-03-11/1256:52>
Sometimes?
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Zilfer on <12-03-11/1323:14>
Sometimes?

I didn't want to make you feel depressed CanRay..... but i'll tell you because you insist.

Your hopeless all the time. xD
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Black Sheep on <12-05-11/1545:36>
Bah, they get some coupons for Stuffer Shack!  They're street scum, they'll love that.  :P
Completely unrelated to the main topic, but our group's hacker in the last game I played in would leave Stuffer Shack gift cards over the eyes of people he killed, a la coins for the ferryman.

"If I'm gonna kill a man, I should at least cover the cost of a fowty for his friends."

Good times.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CanRay on <12-05-11/1809:48>
Sometimes?
I didn't want to make you feel depressed CanRay.....
Far too late.  Someone beat you to it a long time ago.  A looooooooooooooooooooong time ago...
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Zilfer on <12-06-11/1310:38>
An interesting idea... o.O' stuffer shake gift cards over their eyes? o.O'
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Black Sheep on <12-06-11/2210:51>
An interesting idea... o.O' stuffer shake gift cards over their eyes? o.O'
Yes, oddly, our group ran its operations out of the back room of a Stuffer Shack for most of the campaign. Because we'd do odd jobs here and there for the neighborhood watch to keep that area slightly less crime-ridden, they gave us everything in the store at 5% over cost!

I mean, if THAT'S not a reward worthy of the finest Shadowrunner, I don't know what is.

Other than, you know, money.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Argent on <12-06-11/2300:22>
Back on topic (briefly):

I think the range is going to be dependent on what kind of feel you want your game to have. Some GMs like their players to scrape the bottom of the barrel while others don't mind big nuyen going down for big jobs. Either way if it is working for your group and the players are having fun, I'd say stick with what you're doing.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Raven Runner on <12-08-11/1010:49>
Again, back to the original topic, all my GMing has been other systems, not SR, but I feel this is pretty universal. 

First, I agree with what Argent said on the whole. My additional point would be that character improvement is fun, but it's also fun to be challenged, when characters have so much gear and money that it overshadows there actual abilities that can be an issue, and if they get more experience or Karma or whatever to compensate then basically there characters are improving so fast it becomes harder to find that point where it's a challenge and you don't kill all of them. In the long run this is usually less fun.

Bottom line for me is that if I screw up and don't give them enough then when I fix my mistake and give them free stuff the're happy, when I screw up and give them to much they are much less happy to see me balance that one out (that's 150 damage to your new helicopter). So I always give them less and get them used to the idea of gear being stolen and destroyed (with in reason), then put extra emphasis on there actual abilities, and then give them bonus stuff in fun ways.

Also, if the characters feel pressed for cash then they will generally try harder to get it, which makes for better role playing and all that depending on your group.

Now for a question of my own, and sorry this is so long.
In general, how fast are SR characters supposed to improve? Like what do people generally give out for Karma per 4 hour game session?
I've been having a really hard time finding a game to play and it's looking like I might have to learn to GM, so I'm trying to work all this out, Thanks for any input. And by the way if any ones knows of a Skype game or the like that could use another player let me know :)

Raven
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Zilfer on <12-09-11/0019:56>
Currently your lucky if you get 5 or 6. 4 karma sounds about right, though my group plays 6-8 hour sessions. <.< we start at 6 PM and don't stop until usually sometime after midnight.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Argent on <12-09-11/1348:06>
I think on average my group gets roughly 6-8 karma per adventure with each one shot session lasting 6 hours or so. Some adventures span multiple gaming sessions and are worth a good deal more if they survive.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <12-11-11/0511:07>
Missions are a moderately good guidepost for earnings in both money and karma; generally you earn 10,000¥ and 6-10 karma.  I'll admit that I was somewhat disappointed that the GM I had at DragonCon didn't differentiate between players' RPing, just gave the entire table the same amount of karma each time.  Not a terrible thing, though, since he did let me in on a full table.  ;)

What can be helpful is to come up with 'baseline' figures for each sort of activity -- wetwork, intrusion, distraction, structure hit, etc. etc.  Come up with multipliers -- people who have better Street Cred may well get better paydays, while those with high Notoriety and/or Public Awareness may find the Johnsons being a little tight-fisted with the money.  Particularly high-risk actions, rush jobs, jobs that'll take you out of your comfort zone ('hood) or off the work list for an extended period of time, all those sorts of things could increase the cost.  I like the two parts in the movie 'Ronin' -- 'Five thousand a week, with a minimum four weeks' work.'  Then later, 'a hundred thousand' after a demonstration of a certain amount of 'lack of info', for what amounted to a hijacking/theft.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-11-11/1254:23>
For a sanctioned run, i.e. a Johnson hires you, start with upkeep + expenses + cool down.  Get a surety bond to guarantee payment.  These are available to trusted people at 1% and the bond is good for a year.  A 'shadow bondsman' is going to start at 5%.  So a legitimate Johnson would be paying about 10K for a million nuyen bond, that he could fall back on if he can't afford the expenses right off the bat.  A less than legit Johnson would front 50K for the bond.  But Boohoo for him, why do you want to work for an untrustworthy Johnson in the first place?  Since the premium has already been paid, and the bond is good for a year, it is more cost effective to hire a team that you've already got a bond for.  Thus, you're looking at repeat business.  And since the Bondsman isn't going to pay out if the Johnson can't repay the debt, i.e. is dead, that creates a bit of a life insurance policy for the Johnson as a side effect.

Upkeep would be at least middle class lifestyle and probably more, given vehicle maintenance and such.  So that is probably on the order of 2K per week.  The cool down period is the time the heat will be on after the run.  This needs to be about the same 2K per week, but you don't know how long that will be.  Part of this gets subsumed into the surety bond, but part can be negotiated out of the bonus (which hasn't been discussed yet).  Obviously, injury recovery time is another hard measurement, as would incarceration. 

Expenses are highly variable.  Serious injuries can start at about 20K in medical expenses not even counting damaged cyber.  Lost vehicles add up quickly.  Missiles aren't cheep either.  Operating capital like bribes and specialty gear also falls under this category, although that can get authorization ahead of time.  It is VERY easy to rack up 100K in expenses, especially if things go bad (hint: They always go bad).

Long story short, it is in the best interest of the Johnson to get this surety bond.  He's still got to pay the expenses, but it can act as a buffer until the Run pays off on his end. 

That brings us to the actual negotiating price.  This is the bonus for accepting the risk of the run in the first place.  That bonus should start at 2/3rd upkeep and be worked down to as little at 1/3rd. 

So a typical planned out run should take like 1 month counting cool down.  That's probably 4K upkeep, 4K cool down and 2K bonus.  After rent gets paid, the runners are each up like 2K for the month.  The Johnson will have to eat on the order of 30-50K in expenses as well as the salaries.  For a 4 man team, probationary run where he's got to front the surety bond, he's looking at about 100K.  Up front cost for hiring a standard employee is borderline 30K.  So hiring 4 schlubs is going to cost 20K more and he still has to get them the gear.

Now as a baseline rule of thumb, from raw material to finished retail product, you're looking at a 7 fold increase in value.  So if the Johnson is paying out 40K (best case), he needs an expected benefit of 280K.  He will probably get 15% (salesman commission) of the difference.  So, in the typical case of 100K, with a 280K payout, he'll walk away with 27K.  So each runner netted 2K, the Johnson netted 27K, the company netted 153K from the run.

Now lets assume a frag up.  100K expenses in lost equipment, two people in the hospital for a month.  Expense total: 148K.  Bonus is shot but expenses are paid.  Runners net 0 for 6 weeks work.  Company nets 112,200, Johnson nets 19.8K

Now let's say the runners take off with the deposit and don't do the run.  1 month later they are 4K in the hole (1/2 month expenses).  Company is out 10K for surety bond and 16K for deposit on runners... -26K.  Johnson is upset because he wasted a month, but he's probably got other teams. 

Now let's do a frag up failure.  100K equipment losses, 2 people in the hospital, 10K fronted for expenses.  Company is out 8K for deposit plus 10K on expenses, plus 10K on the surety bond: -28K.  They are on the hook for another 156K for expenses and cool down time.  The Johnson can make 15% of what the company saves if the runners don't go to the surety bond.  Two assassins at 5K each to take out the guys in the hospital and then a debt settlement to the survivors for a similar amount saves the company 136K, which the Johnson nets 20.4K

So, you can see that it is in the Runners' best interest not to drive up the expenses and especially in their interest to get the job done.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <12-12-11/0001:03>
Not sure I agree with that analysis.  The conclusion, generally, yes.  The breakdown, however ... not necessarily.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-12-11/0314:04>
Well there is also the ganger model shadowrunner.  50K in gear, low lifestyle maintenance, self destruct at serious damage level.  Johnson will need to do most of the legwork for them and expect kind of a not so subtle run.  Expect about 250 per ganger and probably 10K in expenses.  You'll probably need to hire the whole gang or ballpark 10 members.  Maybe like 15K for the run total, their bonus is whatever they can salvage from the hit.  Probably 5K up front (2500 to the gang, 2500 for the shadowbond, probably a bookie).  If you give them too much up front, they'll just spend it on drugs and chips.  Expected value should be about 35K with 20K profit minus 1500 for the Johnson (probably a Mafia fixer).  The key to using gangers is not to have an expected outcome, merely to have them show up.

Playing a ganger game can be fun, but expect a lot of turnover in characters and shootouts.  Combat heavy games are frustrating in a PbP game because ping times approach 24-48 hours and the game stops during those pings.  This would be more suited to an in person game. 
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <12-12-11/1839:11>
I still don't agree with your breakdown.  I think I'm having a problem with your 'expected benefit', as well as how much you're juggling around -- and perhaps the terms I'm seeing.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-12-11/1958:51>
As a rule of thumb in the crafting world, when you go from raw material to finished product, you can expect a 7 fold increase.  That doesn't necessarily have to translate into the shadows, but lacking any other rule of thumb, I don't see why it can't. 

The expected value number is there to provide a logical frame of reference for runs, beyond the meta part of 'We want to have fun tonight, give us a run.'  A Johnson isn't going to pay 10K each to runners to knock over a Stuffershack.  So, at what point is such a run justified?  A 6 man team 10K each, half up front, half if successful, plus 50K bonus which gets applied to expenses is going to cost 80K up front so the Johnson needs to be looking at a bit over half a million value for the run. 

Now looking at things from the company's point of view and applying some wholesale/retail models... 
Retail is usually at least 40% over wholesale.  The sales rep gets 15% of wholesale.  Distributor pricing (repeat business with standing orders) is about 75% of wholesale.  Assume your deposit is X.  Complete the mission and you get X more.  Johnson offers a bonus of X, but will deduct expenses from that.  Clean run with no excessive expenses costs the company 3X, which represents the distributor pricing.  "You guys did good, we'll hire you again."  But lets say you've got excessive expenses and they run 2X.  Cost to the company is 4X or 100% of wholesale.  They're still ok with it, but there's no incentive not to go with any other group.  Now if things go really bad, and expenses are double the salary, you jump up to 6X, 50% over wholesale.  The company would be like 'Screw that, we're not making anything off the deal.  We'll pay 4X but that's it!'  The group now has to dump its pay (2X) plus the expenses paid (2X) in order to cover expenses.  Group is out time and lifestyle for that time, plus company is unlikely to hire them again.  The company takes 2.5X as its profits and Johnson (sales rep) gets (.5X)

Now applying that to the micro scale as a runner.  Lets say you're offered 10K flat, no expenses.  How much are you willing to invest in the run?  Figure 1/7th for consumables (ammo, bribes, etc.).  Figure 2/7 for lifestyle/upkeep.  Figure 1/7 for personal injury/risked equipment.  Then 1/14th for your fixer.  That's a budget of 1430 for consumables, 700-750 for your fixer and 2860 for lifestyle/upkeep.  Assuming 6K per month upkeep, that leaves you 14 days to plan/execute/get clear of the run.  That pretty much spends your 50% deposit.  You should reasonably expect to lose (i.e. don't risk more than) 1430 in gear/injuries.  Which leaves you with about 3500 as 'profit'  Note that anything more than a moderate injury is going to wipe that out.  Likewise, losing a drone or vehicle, or even a good gun, will wipe out profits instantly.  So what kind of run can you do with a budget of 1400 expendable and another 1400 in gear?
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <12-12-11/2020:45>
I suppose I understand what you're saying, but a) I don't agree with your proposition, and b) I definitely wonder what sort of game you've been playing when you can actually get the Johnson to agree to cover your expenses.

I also wonder what game you're playing when your corporation is expecting only a sevenfold increase in expenditure.  Remember that if the cops can successfully trace this back -- and there isn't a Fixer alive who wouldn't give up the next link in the chain if it was him or the ultimate Johnson -- the Johnson is looking at jail time at least, possibly death, corporate-applied or otherwise -- what, you didn't think Evo had the death penalty?  They call it 'test subject assignment'.  As well, if it gets traced back that far, the corporation who funded the operation will have to pay for everything.  Every death, every dinged car, every shattered window, every busted fire hydrant or crashed-through fence.  Everything.  (Hell, proving that another run was the fault of Y manager of X corporation, and that it was at the corporation's direction, would be a serious set of runs in and of itself.)

Thus, what your breakdown presumes is that:Simply put, I can't imagine either of these things being true.  The knowledge that prison time and reparations are minimums is going to ensure that a corporation is going to source shadowruns only for much bigger fish.  It isn't the chance to sell seven (or seventy, if the amount they're making on a sale is only a paltry 1k) new cars they're looking for; it's the chance to get the contract to supply the government with seven thousand new cars.  Or seventy thousand; something significant.  Every shadowrun with its roots in a corporate entity rated A or above is going to be Big Fish.  You might only be burning out one office after stealing the specs on a guidance chip, but the loss of those specifications and that office's backups means that GM is not going to be able to put their most recent K-Car up for the contract bidding in Quebec, the UCAS, the CAS, CalFree ... get the picture?  You're talking a loss of millions, even billions, and Ford is very pleased with you.

And if you messed up, well, then they only spent 30,000 on the chance to clinch the contract, which they're still in the running for.  And there's other actions that can be taken to delay GM.

If you take the layout cash and run, well, Ford has friends, and they'll make sure you pay anyhow.  An extra 30k in the right hands, plus another 5k to spread the word of your demise and why, will make sure that other runners don't take the money and not even attempt the job.

And I still can't imagine a Johnson covering anything but travel expenses.  And maybe, maybe a bit of bribe money.  And that's only if you're playing at a level way, way above even 'competent runner'; that's doing black ops for the CIA, Mossad, or Aegis Cognito.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-12-11/2112:12>
Actually, I thought expenses were pretty standard, but you have to ask for it at the negotiation.  The Johnson can of course put limits on expenses.  But if he slaps down a flat fee, you the runner as a businessman needs to assess what you're willing to risk for that fee.  For added humor, you want the guy making that assessment to be a troll with a neon mohawk who busts out the horn rimmed glasses and a notepad to do the figuring.

From a meta standpoint.  If your players are all "LOL! Lets go shoot someone in the face!"  Then sure, just make up some sort of fee arbitrarily, throw some dice at it and move on with the action.  The players don't actually get to keep the money, they're there for the game.  But if one (or all) of them does the accounting, figuring out expenses and risk analysis, you, as the GM should respect that. They are engaging the game and presumably having fun with that part of it. Don't take that away from them.

As a player, think about your character and the game.  Is this a one off?  If so, the character is dead as far as you're concerned once the session is over.  Safeties off, full auto, you don't get to keep any of it anyway.  If you are in it for the character building long term, you need to balance your risks and expenses.  If you're not into that as a player, but someone else is, kick them back some money (or RL pizza) to do it for you.  Good managers are worth their fees. Bad managers?  Let's just say its good to have Tanamous contacts.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Wakshaani on <12-12-11/2211:23>
For me, the rule of thumb is that the GM should shell out enough that the runners, if efficient, should be able to make a monthly upkeep cost fitting for the game teh GM wants to run. If he wants the group to be a bunch of street scum that have the system making sure that they stay down, they should bring in enough a month to have a Low lifestyle and probably run on a weekly basis. In contrast, a high-rolling best of the best game runs with huge payoffs as teh runners are expected to lay low for a few months after a job.

"Johnson screws us!" or "Phyrric victory" where the cost outlays were larger than the intake should happen rarely (Maybe 10% of the time, a tad more if the group is bad at budgeting), which should be matched by windfalls an equal number of times (Windfalls should pay out about triple the usual rate. This covers that "You got squat" runs, and gives a free month of cash for those who need the tech upgrades.Giving these windfalls *in* gear cuts out the middleman and shouldn't be overlooked.

Note that jobs pay for the work to be done, not on a per-head basis. Johnson is handing over *one* payment, it's up to the team to decide how they want to split it up. Pay-per-head (I'll give you each ten grand for a job well done) results in a bunch of ringers being brought in and Johnson's budget being shot up. And maybe Johnson as well!
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-12-11/2248:27>
All I can say is that you don't want me in a game where the GM is trying to keep me down.  I will host 'fund raisers' and it won't be pretty. 

That being said, I think that it is critically important that both the GM and the players are on the same page about the type of runners they are. 
If you're running low lifestyle street gangers, you can forget about having a decker or rigger.  You might get away with a shaman, but hermetics are pretty much out.  Johnson needs to be pretty clear about what he wants done and provide the legwork, because at those rates, the runners aren't paid to think.

If you want more of the planning/legwork sort of mission, that means more equipment and more pay.

You're right about the per head business.  But that does come into play if you can split the party.  If you're hiring the team though, you're hiring the whole team. 

If you're running it like a business, and the one lump sum contract thing is a business model, then you need to base your pricing on the job.  Get the parameters and work up a bid.  Get a small consultation fee and the parameters of the mission.  Work up your costs, expenses, etc and write up a bid.  I'd come up with 4 bids.  The first is the 'decline the offer'.  In this case, you're asking for a small amount of money to cover your consultation fee where you assess the run for the Johnson but you don't actually do the run.  If your actual bids were too much, the Johnson can take those numbers back to HQ and let them know that the job simply isn't feasible.  Next you present the Johnson with the bare bones bid.  Minimal results but also minimum price.  This bid should require the Johnson to pay expenses and supply gear.   Again, the small fee paid for the 'Decline the offer' bid covers your professional assessment as to what gear is needed.  Next, offer up the Gold plan.  This should be about double the basic, but you supply your gear.  Johnson still has to reimburse expenses.  Finally offer up the Platinum plan.  This runs about 10 times the gold plan but the runners cover all the expenses incurred. 

Runners should be very wary of any Johnson that snaps up Platinum plans.  It has been shown that even at a microscopic level, if someone is presented a $10 bottle of wine and a $20 bottle, they will invariably go for the $10 bottle.  If they are presented a $10 bottle, a $20 bottle and a $100 bottle, they will opt for the middle one.

As a runner (or any business man) you'll want to plan your operations around that middle bottle, but always be ready to replace that high end bottle, lest everyone opts for the cheapest.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <12-13-11/0036:56>
I guess you and your GM -- or you, if you ARE the GM -- run/s things significantly differently than how it's presented.  Typically, you don't bring your four offers to the table; the Johnson (or the fixer) has a price point, the job, a certain amount of information (the lack of which becomes a negotiating point in your favor), and a time frame.  You receive these four points, decide whether or not the equation below is in or near your favor, then negotiate for a higher price point if it is.  If it isn't, and likely isn't going to be so even if you negotiate a higher payday, then you walk.

( Job + Info ) / Time = Payment

Rarely -- very rarely -- are you going to be able to 'get the parameters of the mission' without saying yes.  "Hi, I want you to break into Ludivenko's and dump this toxic sludge into their next batch of Aqua Goo."  'Let me figure out what it's going to take and get back to you in, say, a couple of hours.'  "Let you walk with knowledge of my highly illegal desires and attempt to pay you to do it?  Oh, sure.  Say there, officer, I'm planning on walking over there and shooting that guy in the head, okay?"  'Sure, sir, go to it!!'

This isn't a contract to build a house or an office building.  This isn't even (usually) a contract to deliver something.  This is a contract to commit a crime -- sometimes dangerous, frequently heinous, and almost always, well, illegal.  Hell, you just knowing becomes complicity, and often makes you an accessory to the crime -- because, see, in knowing about it, you (as a good non-citizen) should report it.  Which you don't.  This, of course, is illegal.  You really think the Johnson's going to let you walk after giving you details?

...

Returning from searching, well, I can't find it, but basically in one of Steven Brust's Cycle books (Vlad Taltos), Vlad -- a minor crime boss and hitman -- is contacted for a job.  He knows that if he asks for specifics -- the guy's name -- he's agreed to do it.  SR should, at least in my never-so-humble opinion, be played very much similarly.  If you ask for specifics more detailed than 'we want you to break into an office building, steal a chip, and replace it with our own' -- or whatever is similar for the run you're being offered -- then you're saying 'okay, we'll do it, let's talk price'.  And remember, the Johnson is the guy with the money, and he's the one laying down the offer.

If he gives you any information more than that, your Johnson is a bloody idiot.  And if he agrees to cover all your expenses, he's gonna get canned the very next day.  'Expenses' is what the first payment is about.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: raggedhalo on <12-13-11/0541:16>
My view has always been that the power in the negotiating room is with the Johnson; you start making unreasonable demands (like ammo refunds, etc.) then you don't get the job.  You don't get the job, your fixer doesn't get their cut.  Pretty soon, they drop you because you aren't making them any money.

If your response to that is to host fundraisers etc., then congratulations - you aren't playing a shadowrunner, you're playing a charity worker.  And if SR4A is the system you want to use to do that, then more power to you.

My group handle expenses in a different way; there are five members of the group, but they split payouts six ways.  Their "sixth teammate" covers their expenses.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-13-11/0656:35>
So, you're saying you just go in blind and try to negotiate based on what the Johnson offers?

Scenario:  Johnson offers 50K for a run, half up front.  You get your face in there and he manages to bump that up to 60K.  The Johnson reluctantly agrees and now he finally gives you the details... He wants you to off Lowfyr.  Now what?  You've already agreed to the deal. 

What I'm saying is that you can get specifics without the details.  In the Ludivenko Job, you don't give out the details, you say "I want you to contaminate a certain food product with toxic sludge.  It needs to be done within a week."  The runners can and probably SHOULD ask:
1. What are the handling precautions and gear needed for this toxic sludge?
a1: I will provide a sealed container with mating fixture that ties into the food system
a2: I hear they've got some good stuff at the CDC lab down in Ft. Lewis, use that stuff
2. What is the opposition expected to be? 
a1: Mall cops essentially, plus police if things escalate.
a2: Magic patrols plus drones and cybered paracritters.  I think they even have the local cops on the payroll
3. (for moral characters) What provisions are there for keeping the contaminated product out of public consumption?
a1: This is what we're trying to find out.  Their system SHOULD be able to find the contamination, but if it doesn't we'll find out quickly.
a2: We expect a hundred cases of food poisoning, possibly deaths.  It will get out there, either by you or someone else.
4. (for ethical characters) What's the territorial status of the site?
a1: Local business, Metroplex jurisdiction.
a2: Major AAA corp with extraterritorial status.

Obviously answer 1's are less expensive while too many answer 2's and you should probably just flatline this crazy slot.

Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: FastJack on <12-13-11/0800:11>
Scenario:  Johnson offers 50K for a run, half up front.  You get your face in there and he manages to bump that up to 60K.  The Johnson reluctantly agrees and now he finally gives you the details... He wants you to off Lowfyr.  Now what?  You've already agreed to the deal. 
Then the runners laugh at the Johnson, shoot him dead, call up S-K and give them all of the details on the Johnson.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-13-11/0827:57>
Scenario:  Johnson offers 50K for a run, half up front.  You get your face in there and he manages to bump that up to 60K.  The Johnson reluctantly agrees and now he finally gives you the details... He wants you to off Lowfyr.  Now what?  You've already agreed to the deal. 
Then the runners laugh at the Johnson, shoot him dead, call up S-K and give them all of the details on the Johnson.
And when said Johnson turns out to be a free spirit and shrugs off the bullets and then claims your 'souls' for breach of contract before vanishing... what do you do then?  Do you still contact SK and make that deal with a dragon?

As I see it, you're either negotiating as part of the game or not.  If you, as a GM, want to keep the group at a certain power level and scrambling for jobs, frame the campaign as corporate runners.  You get an assignment, you do the assignment, there's no negotiations involved.  Or you drop them en media rez with them saying "I don't get paid enough for this drek!"  The point there is that you put them right into the action where the 'fun' is.  Personally, I like the negotiations and planning far more than throwing dice.  For me, the fun is at the negotiating table.  And if the GM has already determined that in one month we'll all be destitute and distilling our own urine for sustenance, that's as bad as the GM determining that a gun fight will end a specific way no matter what. 

As a GM, I want my players to engage the game, their characters and the adventure.  I'm trying to provide them a fun time.  For some players, a fun time means throwing characters into a meat grinder and seeing what comes out the other side.  For some players it is solving of a tough puzzle.  Others still it is about the role play and getting a chance to be something they are not.  If nobody is interested in the intrigue of the negotiations, skip it.  Guess what is fair, factor in their character's negotiation skill and move on. 
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: raggedhalo on <12-13-11/0830:41>
So, you're saying you just go in blind and try to negotiate based on what the Johnson offers?

Nope.  You turn up, hear the initial pitch: "I want to hire you for some wetwork; the target is the CEO of a major megacorporation.  No more details until/unless you agree.  Fee is 50k, half up front.  You in?"

You say "50k?  To off the CEO of a major megacorporation?  Hell no!"

Also, the GM in your scenario is a dick.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: JustADude on <12-13-11/0837:01>
And when said Johnson turns out to be a free spirit and shrugs off the bullets and then claims your 'souls' for breach of contract before vanishing... what do you do then?

You go "Wow... what the fragin' hell was that?!" Because free spirits just AREN'T A TYPICAL SITUATION. The odds of any individual Johnson being one are less than you being hit by a stray round going to the Stuffer Shack for some malty beverages. The far-more-likely scenario is some asshole who has no clue what's involved in a run, thinks the players are idiots, is a nutjob, or some combination of the three.

Got anything more reasonable for an objection... or are you the kind of GM that likes to go "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" when the players decide to go off the rails, rather than adapting to the situation?
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-13-11/0926:18>
The Lowfyr Job Johnson just tried to get some runners to kill Lowfyr for like 50K, do you think he wouldn't be prepared for them to say no?  Did you think he wasn't EXPECTING them to say no?

I will admit that pulling that stunt in the first place is kind of a 'Bad GM' move.  But you do it ONCE... maybe not so extreme... but you do it once to make a point. 

As a Johnson, I would be wary of hiring a group of unknowns if they didn't ask questions.  If they aren't asking questions, there's a good chance that they have no intention of actually doing the job, just in it for the deposit.  I also wouldn't lead with my budget.  Now that's for a 'special order' type job.  'Commodity Jobs' are different.  Assassinations are a commodity job until you get VIP's.  There's a going rate and if the runners don't take the job, you can find someone else to do it.  Package delivery, generic mayhem, etc.  For the most part, these things don't take much planning or legwork.  You'll also find that some people specialize in commodity work.  Assassins, smugglers, gangers, etc. They work very much cheaper than a generalist, but they have a narrow focus of what they are good at.  The reason VIP assassinations are special order is because VIP's invariably have many layers of differing overlapping defenses.  You need a whole team to investigate the defenses and then create the opportunity to even attempt the assassination.  That goes back to my assertion that you don't lead with your budget. 

Let's say you, as a GM, have a certain idea about how the run could go down.  Let's say the Johnson is trying to get a sample of Laes.  That could involve a lot of research to find a source, then infiltration into the Tir, breaking into some facility, acquire a sample, then exfiltrate back out to safety.  You're looking at a month of planning and operations with bribes and transportation, blah blah blah.  A Johnson could expect a run like that to run a hundred thousand nuyen.  But when he puts the request on the table, the ex-Ghost elf runner offers up the Laes dart round he was planning on using if this meet went south.  2000 nuyen and the deal is done.  If the Johnson led with his budget, that could have been like 20-50K deposit.  Admittedly, that's an extreme case... one where the GM didn't look carefully at the character sheets... but in some situations, runners with specialties can do things cheaper than you're expecting.  If they are charging more, then you can always present your plan and offer less.

From a Lazy GM perspective you can work it another way.  Give them the basics of the run and let them do some planning and figuring.  Sit in on it.  Guess what... they just wrote the adventure for you.  And it is an adventure they want to do.  And they even did the math to figure out what is fair.  All you have to do is grumble a bit and sign the check.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: FastJack on <12-13-11/1026:57>
The odds ... are less than you being hit by a stray round going to the Stuffer Shack for some malty beverages.
That actually isn't that odd. Been happening almost weekly for 20+ in-universe years.

Quick-Start Rules (with Food Fight intro adventure) (http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/Shadowrun%20Quick-Start%20Rules.pdf)
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: raggedhalo on <12-13-11/1105:31>
As a Johnson, I would be wary of hiring a group of unknowns if they didn't ask questions.

Asking questions that are directly relevant to the success or failure of the job is fair enough.  But a lot of the questions you list for the Ludivenko job are things that should come in the legwork phase; the Johnson is hiring the runners to solve these problems.

I think your notion that a narrowly-focused character would charge less than a generalist is fatally flawed.  Narrow focus means highly specialised, means highly skilled, means expensive.

From a Lazy GM perspective you can work it another way.  Give them the basics of the run and let them do some planning and figuring.  Sit in on it.  Guess what... they just wrote the adventure for you.  And it is an adventure they want to do.  And they even did the math to figure out what is fair.  All you have to do is grumble a bit and sign the check.

Wow, you should never play Houses of the Blooded or anything like that.  Co-creating the story alongside your players is the point in that neck of the woods.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-13-11/1142:25>
I think your notion that a narrowly-focused character would charge less than a generalist is fatally flawed.  Narrow focus means highly specialised, means highly skilled, means expensive.
Actually, that is exactly wrong.  Narrow focus means that you are only skilled in one thing.  A generalist has to be paid for all of his skills, not just the specific one you need at this moment.  Likewise a generalist needs a vast array of tools that have upkeep.  People specialize because it keeps their costs down, not because they are better at some skill than a generalist.  Since their costs are lower, they can accept lower rates.  Since they can accept lower rates, they get more business and thus make more money by volume.  A generalist survives by either taking the micromanaging load off the shoulders of the client, i.e. general contractor or by synergizing his talents to produce something that specialists can't do, i.e. Vintage Car Restorer vs. Brake specialist.  A generalist typically needs at least a shop, often a whole facility while specialists can usually get by with a kit.

If a Johnson wants cheap (and this is typical of a Runner subcontracting set up), he gets several independents that he knows can do a specific portion of the job.  He then does all the planning and legwork and hands off the operation to the specialist team he put together.  If one guy doesn't want the job, fine, there's a dozen other specialists to take his place.  You put together a team of lowest bidders and hope to god they don't kill each other before the end of the mission. 

In broad strokes, runner teams are generalists in that they consist of a team of specialists.  That means they usually take on the micromanaging aspect of the mission, i.e. legwork and planning.  But it also means that you gotta hire the whole team rather than just a couple. 

That being said, there are specialist teams.  If they make more per run it is because of their reputation not their skill level.  But the rules of supply and demand are fierce.  If they specialize in a type of job that has lots of business, or is generally profitable, then they have to deal with a lot of competition.  If they have a smaller niche, there's less business. 

A generalist team can survive by offering services the specialists can't and then servicing and supporting specialist teams in their down time.  Maybe the rigger supports the local go-gang by fixing their bikes for parts and favors.  Maybe the mage does warding for local businesses.  The sammies might take up some repo work or bounty hunting.  The decker might track down paying gigs.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <12-13-11/1803:42>
I think your notion that a narrowly-focused character would charge less than a generalist is fatally flawed.  Narrow focus means highly specialised, means highly skilled, means expensive.
Actually, that is exactly wrong.  Narrow focus means that you are only skilled in one thing.  A generalist has to be paid for all of his skills, not just the specific one you need at this moment. 

... clearly you have no real-world experience.  A generalist always gets shafted when it comes to money; a specialist can always charge through the nose for their specialty.  Doesn't even matter if the generalist is more intelligent, more formally educated, and able to bring their skill in the specialty up to the level of the specialist's in a matter of mere weeks; when it comes to the moment of the job offer, the specialist always gets more -- at least 3%, often 5%, sometimes 10%.  I speak from experience.

People specialize because they can achieve a higher level of competency in a shorter period of time; to use your example, a guy who studies brakes and only brakes is going to be able to start doing pretty good brake jobs in a couple weeks, and really great break jobs in six or eight months.  In a year or two, if that's all he does, he might be able to get a job at a higher-profile place -- or with some luck and good contacts, with some very significant people.  (Break mechanic for a racing team, perhaps?)

In six or eight months, the generalist who's been studying how to fix all aspects of a car might be able to start working.  In six or eight years he may be competent enough in everything to get paid to restore vintage cars.  In three decades, people will come to him to restore their precious vehicle because he's gotten really good and is one of the best in the business -- but unless it's on a vintage car, they'd probably go to Brake Guy for his specialty.  This is why you have teams.

In any case.

Thank you, CitizenJoe, for some interesting points of view on alternate methods of running the game.  While it doesn't link up to how the game is presented, in either its pure fiction or its published scenarios, it would be very interesting to watch your ideas being used in a convention.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Zilfer on <12-15-11/1952:50>
I'm going to have to agree with Wyrm that Generalists are paid "less" because they aren't as highly trained in all areas.


If you hire a specialized assassin that is known for being descreet you pay them more, and a general assassin who just get's the job done.

Just like me in my job, I know more about computers than most of the other receptionist and i was hired here as the first level IT support, so computer problems go to me because i went to school for Information Technology. I get paid more for being specialized in that area compared to the rest of the receptionists here.


Anyways, i'm glad this topic has turned out a bit more gave me a few more things to go off of.

What i'm more curious about still but i know you can't really judge unless i give you examples of the missions i've written up if they are accurate or not. xD
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CanRay on <12-15-11/1957:01>
I'm going to have to agree with Wyrm that Generalists are paid "less" because they aren't as highly trained in all areas.
But they make it up in volume.

"We need a Shooter."  "Shadowrunner Bob."
"We need a Rigger."  "Shadowrunner Bob."
"We need a Medic."  "Shadowrunner Bob."
"We need a Scout."  "Shadowrunner Bob."
"We need a Heavy Weapons Troll."  "Trogdor, but he only works when we bring along Shadowrunner Bob."
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-15-11/2007:11>
In order to achieve result A, you need someone with skill B.  A skill B+1 person could do it, but he also costs more.  What I'm saying is that the generalist with skill B and Skill C and Skill D costs more than a specialist with skill B.  What you're saying is that the specialist with skill B gets more money than a generalist with skill B-2, C-2, D-2.  Yes, you are correct, but you're comparing apples to a fruit basket.  Now if you put a specialist at B+4 and a generalist at B, C, D, but the job only calls for B, then the Specialist will probably get it but only if he accepts payment level B.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: JustADude on <12-15-11/2016:37>
In order to achieve result A, you need someone with skill B.  A skill B+1 person could do it, but he also costs more.  What I'm saying is that the generalist with skill B and Skill C and Skill D costs more than a specialist with skill B.  What you're saying is that the specialist with skill B gets more money than a generalist with skill B-2, C-2, D-2.  Yes, you are correct, but you're comparing apples to a fruit basket.  Now if you put a specialist at B+4 and a generalist at B, C, D, but the job only calls for B, then the Specialist will probably get it but only if he accepts payment level B.

Not exactly correct;

If a job requires "Skill B", as you put it, and the guy has "Skill B+4", then what the fuck is he doing taking "Skill B" jobs? He's going to be raking in way more money doing "Skill B+4" jobs and leave the "Skill B" jobs to some schmuck who can't handle the big-leagues.

He'd only ever take the "Skill B" job if there was nothing better open but, if he had to, he'd very much be willing to take "Skill B" pay, because, relative to what he's capable of, the job is a cakewalk.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Zilfer on <12-15-11/2017:55>
Ok let's take a real world example that I see all the time. The world of IT, and providing people with support for their computers.

You can call an IT person, and pay upwards of 100 dollars for something relatively easy. You pay them more however because you know they are specialized in that area. Sure you can pay for your nephew to work on it because he's "pretty" good at computers, and good in school, he's a bright lad all around.

Now he could help you with your problem or he could not know about it. Or maybe he found a temperary solution to the problem that works for awhile.

The thing here being specialists get payed a lot more. I work in a Medical office where the doctor's are a "Specialty Service" for Patients with Asthma, and Allergies. More often that naught their primary care doctor's refer them to our office because they have better knowledge in this area, and i'm pretty sure our doctor's are paid more for an Asthma or Allergy related visit, than their primary care doctor.

*shrugs* i'm not quite sure i followed the prior posters example of skill B, compared to skill B+C+D.

If your just hiring them for skill B and they are not as specialisted in Skill B as the other person you can expect to play lower for Skill B.

If you need skill B + C + D then your not hiring the first person in the first place.

might need a little clarification on that one.... Thanks!
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-15-11/2049:17>
He'd only ever take the "Skill B" job if there was nothing better open but, if he had to, he'd very much be willing to take "Skill B" pay, because, relative to what he's capable of, the job is a cakewalk.
And that is exactly my point. Specialists can do the job for less because they have less costs and the job is easier for them.  Nobody goes to a Generalist first.  They go to the specialists until the job requires something that the specialist can't do.  Then they go hunting.  They might pick up a second specialist, but then again they might pick up the generalist so that if something does go wrong, it falls on one set of shoulders.  You'll also find that people work with generalists they know so they don't have to waste time tracking down another person that is untested to them.  It is a little bit lazy, but if you're a high dollar/hour lawyer, then jerking around on the phone looking for a plumber is a waste of time and money.  You drop the dime, call Bob the Repairman and let him deal with it.  Yes, he might charge you an extra fifty bucks for a two hundred dollar job, but you didn't blow two hours at 200/hour looking for a cheaper plumber. When you get home, your bathroom is no longer flooded, and because they guy is a generalist, he's already got bids on your counter to replace the carpet and baseboards where things got water damaged.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: JustADude on <12-15-11/2052:20>
And that is exactly my point. Specialists can do the job for less because they have less costs and the job is easier for them.  Nobody goes to a Generalist first.

"Can" yes, but why would they? As you said, nobody goes to a generalist first; so if a specialist can do the job better for the same money, you go to the specialist, and he makes more net profit off the job.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-15-11/2154:13>
For a given skill level, a Specialist has less expenses, and thus can charge less/accept lower paying gigs.  Specialists tend to be better than generalists because it is easier to advance one skill than a lot of skills.  In theory, they should therefore get paid more because they are more skilled.  In practice, there is a ceiling as to how good you need to be.  Beyond that, people start turning you down for being over qualified.  So if the market is looking for skill B, you're not going to get more than B level pay, even if you are skilled at B+4.  When that rare B+4 job comes along, you'll be ready to take it, but until then you're stuck at B level pay. 

Notice how easy it is for a specialist to get to 'market level' skill.  That means that the specialist is actually competing against a significant number of 'market level' specialists.  This is why the specialist needs to accept 'market level' jobs.  The client won't offer more, he'll just find a different specialist that WILL accept the market level pay. 

Let's say the generalist has 4 'market level' skills.  He's got to charge more since he's got more upkeep, but he can do any of those 4 market level jobs, which means he's got fall backs if one (or more) of those jobs goes to someone else.  Likewise, because he's marketing 4 skills, he's got broader name recognition.  That means his reputation for skill C spills over to his skill B jobs. 

Shadowrun examples:
Alex is a military trained shooter with combat experience with all sorts of guns and hand to hand combat.  Barry is a spy with some basic killing skills, but he's also good at sneaking around and research (spying).
Chuck is a chiphead loser with a rusty knife. 

Dave Johnson rolls up and he needs someone killed, nobody in particular, but he's got 50 nuyen to spend.  Alex, Barry and Chuck could all do it, but the market level is very low.  Alex and Barry lose out to the chiphead, who goes to kill some squatter bum in the alley.

"What the Frag are you slots doing!?" shouts the ork dealer that shows up and finds his client dead in the street. 

Dave Johnson looks worried, "500 nuyen if you waste this guy."
Chuck: Frag that!  He's got an axe! 
Barry shakes his head: Sorry man, I don't need this kind of heat.
Alex guffahs: What this punk?  And non-challantly splatters the ork on the street. 

Dave Johnson slots Alex's credstick, transferring the 500 nuyen.  "Now I'm worried that his boss is gonna find out about this.  Can you kill him too?"
Alex: Sure.  Where is he?
Dave: Uh, I don't know.  There's another 500 in it if you can kill him though.
Alex: How am I supposed to kill him if I can't find him?
Barry: I can find him, but its gonna cost you 1500.
Dave: That's outrageous!
Barry: Hey, conspiracy to commit murder is 50K plus 5 years in the pen.
Dave: Alright, but I don't want any of this coming back to me.

Barry does some research and tracks down the boss.  With some careful planning, he sets up the Boss to get whacked by Alex.  Barry throws 500 to Alex for a job well done then sets up Chuck to take the fall for the whole fiasco.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <12-15-11/2330:07>
...

... I can't even start to describe how insanely craptastic those explanations -- your conception of relative skill, job requirements, and relative payment -- are.

Look.  Let's use your 'skill level + X' and 'kill this slot for me' examples.  Not because they're good examples -- you have a drugged-out ganger chopping down an unarmed guy, a highly-trained shooter blowing away a nearly-nobody for peanuts, and then a specialist to not actually do the job, but instead contract it to the aforementioned shooter, and all these because the Johnson is scrambling to cover his ass, not actually planning a run -- but because they're you're examples.

Alex: Let's just say he's a sniper.  Skill Level 6, which is X + 4, X being 2.
Barry: He's our generalist.  Shooting people at a 2, social networking at a 2, computer hacking at a 2.
Chuck: This poor sod is our mook.  He isn't 'Uneducated', but he's got a skill of 0 - Untrained.

Dave Johnson sits down with the ABCs and says, "I have three people that need to be done away with.  Individuals will be paid only for their own personal kills.  The first guy is a BTL addict ex-scientist currently living in an alley, worth 50¥ to me.  The second guy is a moderately protected BTL dealer who fed him his habit until he wasted away, worth 5,000¥.  The third guy is the incredibly-well-protected Yakuza oyabun, living in a highly-restricted zero-ingress zero-egress apartment complex; he's worth 500,000¥.  Everything needs to be done by 9:00 PM tomorrow."  Team ABC agrees to the job.

Alex, Barry, and Chuck sit down together to figure out who's going to earn what.

"I'll do the addict," sighs Chuck, to which Alex and Barry agree, and Chuck goes off to find Mr. Addict and bury a knife in his skull as he drools in a BTL daydream.  He gets paid 50¥, goes home, and drinks some synthahol while watching the game on TV.

Alex and Barry look at each other.  "Well, can you get into the place to do the oyabun?" asks Alex.  Barry shakes his head; the place is, after all, a zero-zone, nobody in, nobody out.  "Do I look Japanese?  Not in the time allotted."  "I'll take the shot, then," says Alex, "but I need you to find out some details for me.  I'll pay you ten percent."  10% of 500,000¥ is 50,000¥, ten times as much as Barry's going to get for whacking the BTL dealer, but since he's got more skills than just pulling a trigger, Alex is willing to pay a piece of his own for Barry's ability to find him the info.  "And you help me get the Dealer's guards out of the way," adds Barry; Alex agrees.

For free, to buy some good will, Alex runs interference with the BTL dealer's thugs while Barry puts two in his chest and one in his skull from ten feet away; dead BTL dealer.  Barry gets paid 5,000¥.

Barry then turns around and goes to the rumormills for info on the oyabun's personal habits.  He works the crowds both in-person, schmoozing people and making nice to the ladies, spreading around a little bit of that 5k¥ he just got.  As well, he checks message boards and ShadowSea for fanzine info on the oyabun -- what does he like?  What habits does he have?  What's the design of the enclave in which he lives?  Ten hours later he comes back to Alex and says, "He eats dinner every evening at 7:00 PM, with the window always open eight centimeters.  Here's where he sits; here's a map of the enclave and surrounding buildings."

"Ah-ha!" says Alex, working the sight lines.  "I can take a shot from the 17th floor of this building, fire between these two buildings, through the 8cm window opening, and put the round into the oyabun's left eye.*"  At 7:17 PM the following evening, the Oyabun gets killed just that way.  Alex is paid 500,000¥, of which 50,000¥ goes to Barry for his generalist help.

---

Now.  That scenario requires everyone to do a job that requires a skill-level of their own -- 0, 2, and 6.  To properly squash the 'generalist gets paid more for the same job!!' argument, let's use just the BTL dealer.

Johnson: "I need BTL dealer dead."
Alex: "10,00¥ for a guaranteed kill, no matter his bodyguards.  Clean, quiet, one bullet, nobody sees me."
Barry: "5,000¥, I'll have to schmooze my way close to the guy to pop him, but I can get in.  Of course, I'll have to shoot my way back out at that point, but I'm pretty sure I can do the job."
Chuck: "50¥ and I'll jump him somewhere.  Don't think I'll get him, but I'm cheap."

7 times out of 10, Dave Johnson is going to go with the guaranteed, no-traceback Skill + 4 guy, and happily pay double for a job Very Well Done.  The last 3 times he'll go with Barry, but he'll keep Alex on mental speed-dial just in case it goes south and Barry's blood needs to be cleaned off the walls with the job still needing to be done.  He doesn't need a schmoozer or a hacker; he needs a shooter, so even if it's just a BTL dealer hit, he's going to pay for guaranteed, excellent work.  Otherwise it's almost literally a shot in the dark with the hope that you succeed.

* -- bonus point to the first person who states the fictional assassin who prefers this target.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Mirikon on <12-16-11/0702:53>
Joe, I'm going to try and be very nice about this, but you have absolutely no idea how the world works.

If you want to look at specialists vs. generalists, there are four excellent areas from different fields you can look at to see why you are so very, very wrong.

1) Medicine. General Practitioners make far less money than specialists, even though the specialists see fewer clients. In fact, because the GP sees more clients, their expenses are higher, which further cuts into their bottom line. The specialist, however, gets paid much more for doing that brain surgery, because it takes more training time, skill, and expertise than "Turn your head and cough."

2) Military. On one hand you have an infantryman. On the other you have a sniper. You know who gets paid more? The sniper. Why? Because on top of the infantry training, they've also gone to sniper school, typically have a longer time of service, and are frequently higher ranked than the private who just got out of boot.

3) Hollywood. Will Ferrel only has one character that he renames and puts in different situations in each and every movie he's ever been in. He makes far more money per film than that guy who has a supporting role in four different movies every year playing wildly different characters. He makes far, far more money than the people playing extras, who are little more than set pieces.

4) Crime. A two bit hustler and an internationally wanted hit man both kill people. Both may be hired to kill people. The hustler gets paid a lot less for it, however, because the hit man not only has been killing people longer (without getting caught), but they do it without a trail leading back to whoever hired them.

In short, yes, a specialist won't get picked do do a job they're not qualified for. But they charge more for the jobs they are qualified, because they are better at them, and they get results.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-16-11/0850:00>
In short, yes, a specialist won't get picked do do a job they're not qualified for. But they charge more for the jobs they are qualified, because they are better at them, and they get results.
That IS my point.  Specialists don't make more money because they are specialists, specialists make more money because it is easier for them to be better having to only master a small set of skills. But you can say that for anyone with skill levels at a point the market can bare. Compare a generalist and a specialist that are equally qualified for a job.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Mirikon on <12-16-11/1448:24>
In short, yes, a specialist won't get picked do do a job they're not qualified for. But they charge more for the jobs they are qualified, because they are better at them, and they get results.
That IS my point.  Specialists don't make more money because they are specialists, specialists make more money because it is easier for them to be better having to only master a small set of skills. But you can say that for anyone with skill levels at a point the market can bare. Compare a generalist and a specialist that are equally qualified for a job.

If a generalist and a specialist are equally qualified for a job in the specialist's specialty, then either the generalist is a da Vinci-level genius, or the 'specialist' isn't so special.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Zilfer on <12-16-11/1550:22>
In short, yes, a specialist won't get picked do do a job they're not qualified for. But they charge more for the jobs they are qualified, because they are better at them, and they get results.
That IS my point.  Specialists don't make more money because they are specialists, specialists make more money because it is easier for them to be better having to only master a small set of skills. But you can say that for anyone with skill levels at a point the market can bare. Compare a generalist and a specialist that are equally qualified for a job.

You don't seem to get it.... if they are equaly qualified to do the job then they are BOTH SPECIALISTS.

<.< Otherwise one wouldn't be qualified, and the other would. That's how we have the Specialist and the Generalist. I can attest to the Medical part of the examples as I mentioned before. Pretty sure my doctor's get paid more than general practitioners. Not as much as brain surgens but you know. :P
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-16-11/1809:01>

You don't seem to get it.... if they are equaly qualified to do the job then they are BOTH SPECIALISTS.

Alright, right there.  We disagree.  Because we are operating on different definitions of specialists.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Mirikon on <12-16-11/2258:14>
Joe, you're missing one fundamental point about how the world works. When you're hired to do a job, you're hired for your skills AS THEY RELATE TO THE JOB. If you are hired to crack a safe, it doesn't matter if you're a decent actor. All that matters is how well you can crack a safe. Now while there may be an actor who is an expert safecracker, those are two time-demanding fields, which is why you don't see that many doing it, and is why someone tends to focus in one or the other.

Let me put it a different way. How many Magicians do you see that are expert hackers, while still being the equal of a Magician that isn't a hacker on the side?
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: CitizenJoe on <12-17-11/0726:34>
I'm WELL aware of that. 

Clients hire people to get a specific job done.  They look for a certain level of competence, and then they work down the price.  If this is a one time gig, then you just check the phone book, make a few calls and see how much each is charging.  Not much investment on the client's end.  They are definitely looking for a specialist, but their looking for one that will work the cheapest, which means the least talented still able to accomplish the job.

But how much is the client really out?  He's got to do some research (scan the yellow pages), then he's got to put in the calls and assess each person, then he's probably got to front the risk if the guy isn't insured (like most of the cheap guys).  If he's lucky, that's about an hour.  If not, it can drag on for days.

But now let us assume that it isn't just one job, but the client wants to hire someone on full time.  Do you know how much that costs?  I've seen estimates in the 30-50 thousand dollar range with indirect costs adding another 100K on top of that.  A generalist can come in as "good enough" in four fields whereas the specialist comes in as "way over qualified" in just one field.

Yes, on the high end of the job requirements you do need the skills available only to specialists, but for the most part the jobs are more a matter of 'willing to do it' rather than 'capable of doing it'.  On the high end, specialists demand very high fees.  Are your runners getting those high fees?  If not, why are you pushing those skills when you're already good enough? 
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Zilfer on <12-17-11/1258:15>
If your looking to hire a specialist it's because you want a person to focus on only these type of jobs.

You don't for example hire a Hitman to go infiltrate a high security place just to steal something of value. You hire a Thief/Infiltrator.

If you want to hire someone for a multitude of things most of the time you don't hire 1 person you hire a group of people each covering a field, just like how it usually goes in a Shadowrun game. There's a person that covers, guns/fighting (usually street sam or adept) someone that cover's magic (Mage most of the time) and then if your lucky you have someone covering (Hacker), and then you need someone who's a face.

Am I going to hire someone to do all 4 of those? Probably not, because he's not going to be good in all four fields. <.<

If you go with the "cheap guys" you pay less, because they are not as specialized. Whether from experience or reviews, or certifications, or a Bachlor's or whatever. They get paid more because they have proof they spent more time on it.

But going with the "cheap guys" You can be less sure that they are going to have the skills to get the job done. If you go to an IT repair shop, you don't know if they will be able to repair your laptop. I worked in one while I was in college we charged FAR less than any specialist, partly because we were students still learning. $25 flat fee for any computer problem, bring it in the students will diagnose the problem fix it if they can, or tell you what you need to fix the problem your having, and if you need to buy anything they'll recommend where to buy it whether Newegg.com or Bestbuy(shudders) or whatever their prefered place is for that student. You take it to a IT Repair shop it's like 100$ just to get the diagnosis! Then more fee's on top of that.

This guy at my dad's work wants to charge him somewhere up to 150$ just to look at his computer which "May be" infected and dangerous for the work place. I'm not sure if he wanted to charge extra for putting what the company's "new antivirus" on there, but it's simple enough that I can do it if he gives me the key. xD Needless to specialists can be a pain, but when things go south your glad you have em.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Black on <12-20-11/0457:22>
Joe, its true that some times you settle with 'good enough'.  Specially when your slush funds getting low from all the jobs your paying for.  But specialist have their role in the hmmm... genre.  Who hasn't seen the movie with the Tech Guy, the Gun Guy, the Face, etc.  And sometimes Mr Johnson is more then happy to pay that extra to get someone 'overqualified', because then the job gets done.  You don't hire Ken the Knife from the Cutters to assassinate the CEO, you hire Snarkle the Sniper of international fame/notority.  And from a player point of few, itsnt nice the be the 'best there is at what I do'?.  It of course helps the character is played in a nice balanced way, but I don't see any reason why some people wouldn't want to become specialist, and why you would discourage it?
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Leigion on <07-08-12/0657:18>
Man this is a old one but it had me laughing so hard i woke up my girlfriend. I am still giggling abruptly. Ok I find the irony of this whole argument hysterical. This debate that unfolded was about getting the negotiations realistic. Citizen Joe I am seriously making a Fixer NPC named C'jp after you. C'jo has runner teams low ball bid each other if they want to work this week. I absolutely love your business sense pure brilliants. You had %,you had paid expenses, you had bids on pay grade, you even worked a common junkie into a $50 murder. Thank you iam going to use that as well.

The worm makes a statement on hit man he read about in a book and if said hit man asks for the name he took the job. Then later states to Joe he's got no real world experience. Oh dear.. the lines going back and forth on you guys i swear it almost feels scripted but i know its not. You guys had me weeping that's how funny this stuff is. Seriously you two should do radio together C'jo and the worm in the morning 1011 KFX FM. You guys are so funny iam thinking about convincing you two to hop in vent/skype and just debate stuff all kinds of stuff not just shadowrun. There is more stuff the worm says that is funny just the hit man asking about targets name and he has to take the deal was priceless. Its in the first three things a hit man asks when deciding if its doing the job, Who is in their. He can walk away its only when he says Ill do it that he's in. Its expected a hit man will keep his mouth shut. If he cant, expect the people that he deals with will send another to shut it permanently. If that's not enough to keep him quite the lack of work because he cant keep his mouth shut and loss of street cred will.

I think the specialist and the general was epic though that's where i couldn't stop laughing Totally missed the forest from the trees on that one. Look yes the specialist will get paid no doubt but the general sees more work. He might get paid less and all but general means on the street 'this guy will do anything and he is always looking to get paid." Here let me put this in another way the specialist would still have to have a good street rep and connections to get paid well. because if he does not have street cred or connections he's still going to get paid the same wages as a general specialist or not.

Any who he's how it goes down if you want realistically.Lets break it down. Mr j wants a thing done so he calls a guy who knows some people to get it done. if he hear nothing back in a hour he's going to call another guy. Because its like anything else really when you want something you want it A.S.A.P. Now at the meet its 2-4 realistically. usually just 2 people 4 if people don't know each other and its usually the extras are just that watchers they don't really hear the deal they are just there.. So all this talk about 1/2 now 1/2 later that all movie's that not even realistic if you even think about it

OK hey this jobs 20k cool here ill give you have now incase you get happen to get picked up hit by a bus or a million other complications with it not getting done. HELL NO! they are not paying you no half now half later. They might give you something now on good faith for expenses if but the way they are going to look at it is if you don't got the tools why are you showing up for work. Example jobs 20k alright you know how much up front money you will see maybe a grand that right a grand on a maybe. After the job is done that when you have to collect and that's the risky part. You have to worry about a double cross at that point Usually though they want to pay you and be done if you did a good job it helps because they want to surround themselves with people who can get the job done. But sometimes people get greedy and don't want to pay or they want to tie you up as a loose end so the trigger man is dead and no one knows what really happened but the guy who had it done.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Mason on <07-08-12/1248:14>
The issue here is some people are defining a Specialist as someone with a SINGLE SKILL at a marketable rating, whereas others are defining it as someone with a SET OF SKILLS RELATED TO THE JOB all at a marketable rating. Some people are defining a Generalist as someone with a LARGE NUMBER OF SKILLS all at a marketable rating, and others are defining it as someone with a LARGE NUMBER OF SKILLS AT LESS than the marketable rating. Until these term definitions are resolved, this argument will never be resolved.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Reaver on <07-08-12/1439:22>
Speaking as a specialist, you all seem to be missing out on some logic.. Let's use myself as an example.

I am technically, an instrument mechanic. I build, repair, design, install, and maintain all the PLCs, wiring, gauges, tubing, and parts that are used in the automation of an industrial plant. It's complex, messy work... And I get paid ALOT for it. Namely because there are so few of us that can do the work.
 
Now, to become an IM, you must be an electrician (with an emphasis on industrial).

To be an industrial electrician, you must know residential and commercial electrical.

I can wire your house, your business, your industrial facility, AND maintain your industrial plants motors, automation systems, all it's switches, gauges, lights, read outs, etc...

Due to my specializations, it's not a question of 'when a job comes in' its a question of 'what job do I want to take?'
I am currently working out of a camp in northern BC for the simple fact that they are paying me EXTREMELY well. But I also get job offers to work other places all the time, from all over the world! Your general electrician (meaning commercial/residential) doesn't get those offers. after all there are general electricians everywhere.

When you are looking at a specialist, you are looking at a skillet that goes beyond what normal practitioners in that field have. And you pay for that simply cause if you need a specialist, you have to convince him to take your job over all the other offers that are available.

you don't hire a IM to wire your house (but you COULD). However you don't hire a general electrician to maintain/setup your mining operation (and you CAN'T).
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Lethe on <07-09-12/0444:17>
While that real life example is correct, the general electrician you mentioned as the antagonist is not a real generalist, because you know everything he knows plus your specialty. This discussion was about the generalist knowing other important out field skills that would be important for the job, that the specialist, who only knows his field, knows not.

Lets go on with that example:
I am the Johnson and looking for an IM, who has to do THAT, but in an enemy facility... unnoticed.
Lets assume you know nothing about infiltration, disguising, fast talking yourself out of stuff, research on secret layouts, hacking, and so on.

You are a specialist, who needs help from others to complete your skillset and to even have a chance to succeed. But at the same time, the more people are involved and need to get into the facility, the more likely it might fail.

Now there is a generalist, who might not be as good as you in that specific field and will probably take a bit longer to succeed for that task, but instead knows all the other stuff, and is able to research on and infiltrate the facility on his own. Wouldn't you pay him almost as much as the whole other team?


If the generalist is unable, because of the lack of knowledge, then he wouldn't even qualify for the job.
So the general assumption here was, as i read it, that the generalist is able to succeed at some point with the task.

But at that point the terms specialist and generalist might not be accurate anymore, as the generalist might be called a specialist with his skillset for exactly that kind of job.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Reaver on <07-09-12/1059:29>
While that real life example is correct, the general electrician you mentioned as the antagonist is not a real generalist, because you know everything he knows plus your specialty. This discussion was about the generalist knowing other important out field skills that would be important for the job, that the specialist, who only knows his field, knows not.

Lets go on with that example:
I am the Johnson and looking for an IM, who has to do THAT, but in an enemy facility... unnoticed.
Lets assume you know nothing about infiltration, disguising, fast talking yourself out of stuff, research on secret layouts, hacking, and so on.

You are a specialist, who needs help from others to complete your skillset and to even have a chance to succeed. But at the same time, the more people are involved and need to get into the facility, the more likely it might fail.

Now there is a generalist, who might not be as good as you in that specific field and will probably take a bit longer to succeed for that task, but instead knows all the other stuff, and is able to research on and infiltrate the facility on his own. Wouldn't you pay him almost as much as the whole other team?


If the generalist is unable, because of the lack of knowledge, then he wouldn't even qualify for the job.
So the general assumption here was, as i read it, that the generalist is able to succeed at some point with the task.

But at that point the terms specialist and generalist might not be accurate anymore, as the generalist might be called a specialist with his skillset for exactly that kind of job.

The point I was making is that a specialist has not only his specialized knowledge and skills, he has a host of other skills that your generalist would have.  If you would preferr a more SR example

Thug: can shoot someone with a light pistol
Army: can shoot you with a heavy pistol, AR, has an understanding of urban combat, tactics
'Hitman': can shoot you with a heavy pistol, sniper rifle, has an understanding of urban combat, tactics, police proceedures, and infeltration.
'assassin': can shoot you with a heavy pistol, sniper rifle, garrote you, stab you, pummel you to death with is bare hands, infeltration, disguise, matrix hacking (maglocks), B/R (maglocks), police proceedures, urban combat tactics.

And those are just a FEW of their skills. Now by the definiation of a GENERALIST (meaning all skill at a general level on competency, no specializations) as opposed to a specialist (who has a specialization in a certain skillset and complimentary skills to fulfill his occupation) . You're telling me the thug should get paid more cause he has the least amount of specializations (light pistol)????
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Lethe on <07-09-12/1224:08>
My definitions:
generalist: all skills average to good.
specialist: one skill very high, all other skills below average
Or in SR terms: both have spent 100BP on skills (thats how it all started), the specialist on a few, the generalist on many.

Your example sadly ignores this premise: Your generalist(thug) spent 10 BP on skills, your specialist(assassin) 200 BP. Of course in your eyes the specialist is better, but that's another chapter in another book.

Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Reaver on <07-09-12/1250:17>
Actually, the very definiation of what you are hiring dictates BP.

A 16yr gutter trash is a punk/thug has 100bp and are a dime a dozen

A 40yr old professional is an assassin and has 300+ bp and are rare.

Sure the thug can CALL himself an assassin, but he's still a punk. Just like you can call a mouse an elephant.... But biologically it's still a mouse.


SOMEONE with a flat 200bp in skills is a professional in their field (looking at the entire breath of skills)

AN INDIVIDUAL with 300+bp in skills is an elitist of a profession (and most likely a specialist)

When you give someone a title (like hit man, or assassin, soldier, thug, goon, dentist) you are emplying a level of professionalism which is reflected in SR by a multitude of things (ie: professional rating all NPCs have, total BP in skills). There is a large difference between a man who makes his lively hood taking lives and a man who can take a life.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Zilfer on <07-09-12/1300:45>
I think Mason's right on this one about the definations of people being the problem. I'm on the general side that thinks a specialist has high skill in one area but also very good skills other places as well. Again the specialist will be paid more, and people looking for a specific subtype will pay more to have someone trained specifically in that area.

Want someone who gets in and out without being seen for an assassination mission? Your going to need a specialist. :D
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Lethe on <07-09-12/1402:45>
SOMEONE with a flat 200bp in skills is a professional in their field (looking at the entire breath of skills)

AN INDIVIDUAL with 300+bp in skills is an elitist of a profession (and most likely a specialist)
That's just what i said, you simply have another definition of specialist. A definition that is not fitting to the problem.
IIRC the generalist/specialist discussion was about shadowrun characters. When you make a new 400BP character you can specialize in some areas and neglecting others (being a specialist) or taking lots of skills on an average level (being a generalist).
Nowhere in there fits your 500BP assassin or your 50BP thug, they are just not part of the problem, because those titles don't define how they divided their skill points. You can have assassin specialist, focusing on some parts whats needed for being an assassin or you can have an assassin generalist, paying attention to all areas of being an assassin equally.

When you give someone a title (like hit man, or assassin, soldier, thug, goon, dentist) you are emplying a level of professionalism which is reflected in SR by a multitude of things (ie: professional rating all NPCs have, total BP in skills). There is a large difference between a man who makes his lively hood taking lives and a man who can take a life.
Not sure where you just pulled those titles out, but titles are not part of the problem. Its generalist vs. specialist, please focus.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Leigion on <07-10-12/0145:23>
I think reavers point on the top of the board sums it up beautifully a specialist in a field can do more then a general/generic job where as a general/generic cant do a specialist job. Now using some examples given lets turn this back into shadowrun and a being hired for a job since that's what this topic is about. Let us look at skills do the job pay grade, and professionalism for a specialist. Well take wet work for example people have been dropping the profession of hit man in this so lets start there, simple enough. Lets use a professional free lance hit man who has a good rep and been at his trade for a number of years as to further outline our specialist. I'll use a trigger man as our general/generic. Since breaking these two types down will be long ill put it into posts.Let us begin with our realistic free lance proffessional hit man.

Disclaimer Everything i write in this post is purely hypothetical using logical responses. In the case of anything matching real world i read allot and there for i must of read it somewhere. I may or may not remember where or when i read it at any given time. I do not, am not encouraging people to hire hit man or a trigger man to kill people. Nor be a hit man/trigger man. Nor do i or em i encouraging people to break the law any law at anytime. Everything written is for peoples personal use in a "fictional game" to make hiring hit man/ trigger man more realistic.Any and all jokes are supposed to be taken jokingly not psychoanalyzed. The often over looked reason for this is if you psychoanalyze a joke you kill said joke.

Lets start right where it begins with getting hired. The professional freelance hit man usually has at least one "handler" to a handful of "handlers" anymore and well it will increases getting busted in the long run. The Client calls /meets "handler" they will meet/speak and work out what's in the contract and then meets/calls (throw away phone) the hit man. Grace period one hour before the client calls  another  person for the contract if said client knows another person. This isn't strumming threw  the yellow pages  looking for contract killers  r us. The "handler" can be just a liaison or more likely a under boss,capo or some other rank in file of organized crime. Who hires the hit man from time to time. The "handler" acts as a buffer and puts much needed security check point between the hit man and the client. Yes folks conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder is a serious charge let alone the actual murder. The "handler" Knows the basic fees along with additional fees for complications. The thing that's not always known to the "handler"is what the hit man will charge for a high profile target. Since depending on the "who" can change the regular fee the most.

The "handler" and hit man then meet/call discuss the contract "who" "what" "when" "where" to confirm if it can be done after the down payment was given. At this time the hit man may refuse the contract for what ever reason. If the hit man agrees  the "handler" calls/meets back  with the client and confirms . That's it with in two calls rarely a third call to the client. That's right people its not getting windows done talking to sales reps working a better price. These people are serious and serious about getting paid, they don't do well with shine jobs or being jerked around with call backs. Down payment is usually ballpark figure of 5k (note if the hit man says no, you don't have to pay it.) If the hit man says yes then you do, and you will forgo that fee if you call it off. Buyer beware getting it called off in most likely will not happen. You more then likely are going to have to buy the life back higher then 5k or incase the client has some decent clout in the underworld even then they either pay half or full because it shows respect. It also Keeps the door open for a next time and at the same time doesn't make the client look cheap. Power perceived is power achieved. No respectable bad guy wants to look cheap when it comes paying for service.     
 
The hit man will be later paid threw the handler. If the handler is part of organized crime the handler will assume payment in case the client welches on the deal. That is the handlers problem not hit man but you better believe its going to be a serious problem for the client, since it just came out of pocket for someone else's mess. Here is what the breakdown for hiring a professional hit man looks like. Regular ballpark figure 20k-30k to hire.
"Who" as in high profile can increase the fee up as much as 10-20k in increments going up the latter as high profile. If the "who" has competent bodyguards capable of giving resistance that counts as high profile btw.
"What" regards to certain way it needs to be done. (examples looks like a accident,body needs to disappear, throat slit, car explosion,place a item ect)These complication cost anywhere between 2-5k. Note its not unheard of for charging as much as 10k for body removal and making it disappear.
"When" is a average grace period one week. This complication is usually 2-5k per day working backwards from the 7 day. Do not confuse actual grace period with when it gets done. The hit man will take the target as soon as he can uphold the contract.(so if needs to be done in exactly 4 days charging 2k a day removed from the 7th day looks like 6k fee.)
"Where" reguards to having to find the target as in target location is unknown. Any who this complication doesn't really change fees just extends the grace period. The hit man may or may not charge in traveling costs. Professionals usually don't charge. Note on traveling a hit man usually will drive or charter a private plane (as in small aircraft not a private jet) Charter planes charge by the hour and is in between 160-200 a hour.                 

The benefits to hiring a professional hit man are as follows, Enmity. Service can be catered to the client wishes. A murder can be made into a accident. Professionalism as in, not drawing attention, getting the job done, no goof ups, wont leave evidence, wont leave a credible witnesses.. Client can establish a air tight alibi because the client didn't commit the murder. Basically zero chance of being busted as long as you don't do one of these three things A) You admit to hiring a hit man. B)The hit man sells you out on a later date and you do a or c.  C) If the money given was accounted for (that means bank account records or a over the table loan can prove a link to you and the money given. Is typical of how  the client gets caught and shouldn't be over looked) So don't pull 30k out the bank folks use that nest egg under the mattress.for your inheritance money, for the naggy wife's life insurence, for that two timing cheating boyfriend, who cheated on you with your brother or that 75 year old eye witness who identified you for flashing her retirement home.
 
Contrary to popular believe many professional hit man usually are not case book sociopathic amoral killers. Some have personal code of ethics which would contradict amoral and even sociopathic. They tend to blend in to society and have higher then average I.Q's. When it comes to the target, they dont seem to feel anything towards the target. They don't feel a rush stalking nor excite making the kill. For everyday people to understand what type of mindset this would be. Actually think about what you feel when you accidentally stepped on a ant five minutes after the fact. They also tend to have themselfs under control and are patient.           
For you game nuts out there i could make this character with 350bp and probally flesh it out so its not really completly min/maxed. You can go with the standard 400bp, the key to the skills are broad enough to do the contract the way the client's want, but specialized enough get close to the target or reach out from a rooftop. Does the skills mater of course but so does the professionalism, the ability to be a critical thinker, be a planner and to have patience. Because with out those things your just really a trigger man and your pay grade will prove it. See trigger man in my next post.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Leigion on <07-10-12/1920:11>
Disclaimer Everything i write in this post is purely hypothetical using logical responses. In the case of anything matching real world i read allot and there for i must of read it somewhere. I may or may not remember where or when i read it at any given time. I do not, am not encouraging people to hire hit man or a trigger man to kill people. Nor be a hit man/trigger man. Nor do i or em i encouraging people to break the law any law at anytime. Everything written is for peoples personal use in a "fictional game" to make hiring hit man/ trigger man more realistic.Any and all jokes are supposed to be taken jokingly not psychoanalyzed. The often over looked reason for this is if you psychoanalyze a joke you kill said joke.

So now lets take a look at general/generic trigger man, AKA enforcers. Its more or less a job description then a title. So a trigger man could be a gang banger, could be a biker prospect, work for a criminal organazation and last but not least could be a person who got the webbles and or to dust people for a living. Lets start at how you become a trigger man.  First and for most before you are considered to be hired your going to have to kill a random person or rival probono. This tests your if you can actually do it. Most criminal organazations including inner city gang bangers will send a shaperone and a driver to make sure you do it. Best case senerio if you cant or foul it up you lose a ton of street cred, worste case well people went out to kill a man today it just happend to be the wannabe. The later is almost a gureentee, you will find out why later in the post. Anywho getting that hurdle out of the way you can now be considered for trigger man status.

Trigger man generaly have two things working against them in their profession other then the obvious. 
1. They have to branch out enough to make contacts with people who will hire them for killing people. This inturn flings thier nickname and street cred out and about.
2. Because of fear/respect you get out on the street/crimminal organazation and the way of life is violent thier is a  increase in people wanting to be a trigger man. Its not like it requires a high school deploma. A trigger man usually suplement thier incomes as an enforcer or with armed robberies when not directed to kill people.

So lets look at getting hired and how the meet looks like. In the case of inner city it could be as simple as a person stopping to talk to the trigger man from the neiborhood. Watup doe badaboom badabing, I'll have your skrila when its done'yo. Yea tell me about it, life is getting cheaper by the day. In the case of asking a criminal outfit for a trigger man. You better be able to hold your own and have some street cred. Do not recommend walking into a known 1% biker bar finding the biggest bad ass and saying "hey, how much for you to kill my ex wife?" Betta buy the man a drink first.

A typical meet will look like this though 2/4 people meet up. After checked for wires. (Fun factoid conspiracy to commit murder in the 1st degree is a no less then 15 no more then 60 prison sentence) The contracter talks to the trigger man the other two people are watching and minding thier own business. The deal is worked out pretty fast and thats it.

Average pay grade for decent trigger man is 1,000-10,000k. Inner city pretty cheap ballpark is 1000-5000k Some are known to charge more but this is the going rate. Many are willing to barter though surprizingly. Going through organize crime again ballpark figures are roughly 5000-10,000k they will pretty much get what ever they can out of the contracter but will negotiate quickly and usually have a flat rate. Its because of the hustle they have on murder. Usualy not in all case's but the guy you pay out to isn't the guy who actually kills the target. If its a regular target they will send a prospect or guy who wants in to do it. This creates a win win win sitcho, for said group. They test the new guy's weebles and the guy you paid out keeps most of the cash. Thats right folks the middle man keeps the cash and then shows up at the party they throw for the new guy getting in. Three 7's for the middle man.

If the new guy fouls it up the shaperone will take out the target and the new guy. In that case, the guy you paid off now pays out the shaperone most of the cash and thats why the middle man tells shoot the new guy if he fails. The only thing that will save your ass in this fail moment being the new guy is if you make decent cash for the orgazation to siyphon off from and or you happen to be related to someone who is seen as respectable member, but you dont get in. Some organazation are no joke about this rule getting in. If you cant kill a guy,you will totally get dusted if you cant make your bones.

Most trigger men metal states are/almost sociopathic in nature with a increase of testrone real or imagined with a growing ego. Many are pipolar and if they become agitated it will quickly become a explosivly violent situation. A large portion will suffer from paranoid deluions from time to time if not permentatly. They tend to downwirl spiral into a damn dear deranged state's. Many constatly seek  rushes threw drugs/alcholoh mostly uppers though. A large portion enjoy what they do, stalking thrills them and killing exites them. They will usually suffer from P.T.S.D some are known to also have ADDHD on top of that. For common everday people to understand this midset imagine on one hand your totally indestructable and on the other hand your vunerable(aka slipping) now put your hands together and make them wrestle each other.
 
A very small portion of these people are actually shut off from what they do and are considered respectable bad guys. The respectable one's will get better pay raise and or a nice comfortable posistion in an criminal organazation if they belong or get into one. That is if they can beat the odds between a violent death or a long prison sentence. (Fun factiod) Some organazations will form a betting pool between certain members complete with odds and send one unoffilated trigger man to go after another unaffilated trigger man.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Mason on <07-11-12/0134:55>
If you guys can't agree on a definition, this argument will be pointless. I will share what I think for the benefit of whoever cares, but I won't argue definitions, so if you disagree, well, whatever. Have fun arguing.

Anyway, the "generalist" capable of doing multiple jobs as well as a "specialist" is not a "generalist", he is a "multiple specialist". A "specialist" is someone who has specialized in one kind of work and its associated work. A "generalist" is someone who handles the general work, the miscellaneous stuff that is too small or unimportant for the highly skilled people to take care of.
Title: Re: The topic of Money!
Post by: Leigion on <07-11-12/0428:11>
Sorry for the long wall of text but i was trying to do two things A. list pricing for what it would be for wetwork since thats what the OP was asking about, pricing for jobs and hitman came up in someone else post. B. end the argument on what a defination of specialist vrs generalist. I tried toe to toe explaining it with a hitman and a trigger man. Reaver was spot on with "When you are looking at a specialist, you are looking at a skillset that goes beyond what normal practitioners in that field have" there thats it.  Done end of argument. If people are still lost take 400bp build Cat burgular it doesnt have to be able to break into meusems just be able to B&E a rich lavish house. Now make a 400bp non cat buglar and give him some B&E skills.

Now whos going to break into the rich lavish house?Who's going to dodge house servants, crack a safe and be out before the master of the house is done having brunch, unnoticed?  My money is on the cat buglar could the other guy attempt it sure but you know whats going to happen just as well as do. Even if he gets past house security system its more then likely going to turn into a hostage sitcho and/or a panic button Still he can't crack a safe and be out, unnoticed. Anywho I hope someone can use something out of the hitman or trigger man write up i gave.