[Zilfer]

Ok let's take a real world example that I see all the time. The world of IT, and providing people with support for their computers.

You can call an IT person, and pay upwards of 100 dollars for something relatively easy. You pay them more however because you know they are specialized in that area. Sure you can pay for your nephew to work on it because he's "pretty" good at computers, and good in school, he's a bright lad all around.

Now he could help you with your problem or he could not know about it. Or maybe he found a temperary solution to the problem that works for awhile.

The thing here being specialists get payed a lot more. I work in a Medical office where the doctor's are a "Specialty Service" for Patients with Asthma, and Allergies. More often that naught their primary care doctor's refer them to our office because they have better knowledge in this area, and i'm pretty sure our doctor's are paid more for an Asthma or Allergy related visit, than their primary care doctor.

*shrugs* i'm not quite sure i followed the prior posters example of skill B, compared to skill B+C+D.

If your just hiring them for skill B and they are not as specialisted in Skill B as the other person you can expect to play lower for Skill B.

If you need skill B + C + D then your not hiring the first person in the first place.

might need a little clarification on that one.... Thanks!

[CitizenJoe]

He'd only ever take the "Skill B" job if there was nothing better open but, if he had to, he'd very much be willing to take "Skill B" pay, because, relative to what he's capable of, the job is a cakewalk.

And that is exactly my point. Specialists can do the job for less because they have less costs and the job is easier for them.  Nobody goes to a Generalist first.  They go to the specialists until the job requires something that the specialist can't do.  Then they go hunting.  They might pick up a second specialist, but then again they might pick up the generalist so that if something does go wrong, it falls on one set of shoulders.  You'll also find that people work with generalists they know so they don't have to waste time tracking down another person that is untested to them.  It is a little bit lazy, but if you're a high dollar/hour lawyer, then jerking around on the phone looking for a plumber is a waste of time and money.  You drop the dime, call Bob the Repairman and let him deal with it.  Yes, he might charge you an extra fifty bucks for a two hundred dollar job, but you didn't blow two hours at 200/hour looking for a cheaper plumber. When you get home, your bathroom is no longer flooded, and because they guy is a generalist, he's already got bids on your counter to replace the carpet and baseboards where things got water damaged.

[JustADude]

And that is exactly my point. Specialists can do the job for less because they have less costs and the job is easier for them.  Nobody goes to a Generalist first.

"Can" yes, but why would they? As you said, nobody goes to a generalist first; so if a specialist can do the job better for the same money, you go to the specialist, and he makes more net profit off the job.

[CitizenJoe]

For a given skill level, a Specialist has less expenses, and thus can charge less/accept lower paying gigs.  Specialists tend to be better than generalists because it is easier to advance one skill than a lot of skills.  In theory, they should therefore get paid more because they are more skilled.  In practice, there is a ceiling as to how good you need to be.  Beyond that, people start turning you down for being over qualified.  So if the market is looking for skill B, you're not going to get more than B level pay, even if you are skilled at B+4.  When that rare B+4 job comes along, you'll be ready to take it, but until then you're stuck at B level pay. 

Notice how easy it is for a specialist to get to 'market level' skill.  That means that the specialist is actually competing against a significant number of 'market level' specialists.  This is why the specialist needs to accept 'market level' jobs.  The client won't offer more, he'll just find a different specialist that WILL accept the market level pay. 

Let's say the generalist has 4 'market level' skills.  He's got to charge more since he's got more upkeep, but he can do any of those 4 market level jobs, which means he's got fall backs if one (or more) of those jobs goes to someone else.  Likewise, because he's marketing 4 skills, he's got broader name recognition.  That means his reputation for skill C spills over to his skill B jobs. 

Shadowrun examples:
Alex is a military trained shooter with combat experience with all sorts of guns and hand to hand combat.  Barry is a spy with some basic killing skills, but he's also good at sneaking around and research (spying).
Chuck is a chiphead loser with a rusty knife. 

Dave Johnson rolls up and he needs someone killed, nobody in particular, but he's got 50 nuyen to spend.  Alex, Barry and Chuck could all do it, but the market level is very low.  Alex and Barry lose out to the chiphead, who goes to kill some squatter bum in the alley.

"What the Frag are you slots doing!?" shouts the ork dealer that shows up and finds his client dead in the street. 

Dave Johnson looks worried, "500 nuyen if you waste this guy."
Chuck: Frag that!  He's got an axe! 
Barry shakes his head: Sorry man, I don't need this kind of heat.
Alex guffahs: What this punk?  And non-challantly splatters the ork on the street. 

Dave Johnson slots Alex's credstick, transferring the 500 nuyen.  "Now I'm worried that his boss is gonna find out about this.  Can you kill him too?"
Alex: Sure.  Where is he?
Dave: Uh, I don't know.  There's another 500 in it if you can kill him though.
Alex: How am I supposed to kill him if I can't find him?
Barry: I can find him, but its gonna cost you 1500.
Dave: That's outrageous!
Barry: Hey, conspiracy to commit murder is 50K plus 5 years in the pen.
Dave: Alright, but I don't want any of this coming back to me.

Barry does some research and tracks down the boss.  With some careful planning, he sets up the Boss to get whacked by Alex.  Barry throws 500 to Alex for a job well done then sets up Chuck to take the fall for the whole fiasco.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

...

... I can't even start to describe how insanely craptastic those explanations -- your conception of relative skill, job requirements, and relative payment -- are.

Look.  Let's use your 'skill level + X' and 'kill this slot for me' examples.  Not because they're good examples -- you have a drugged-out ganger chopping down an unarmed guy, a highly-trained shooter blowing away a nearly-nobody for peanuts, and then a specialist to not actually do the job, but instead contract it to the aforementioned shooter, and all these because the Johnson is scrambling to cover his ass, not actually planning a run -- but because they're you're examples.

Alex: Let's just say he's a sniper.  Skill Level 6, which is X + 4, X being 2.
Barry: He's our generalist.  Shooting people at a 2, social networking at a 2, computer hacking at a 2.
Chuck: This poor sod is our mook.  He isn't 'Uneducated', but he's got a skill of 0 - Untrained.

Dave Johnson sits down with the ABCs and says, "I have three people that need to be done away with.  Individuals will be paid only for their own personal kills.  The first guy is a BTL addict ex-scientist currently living in an alley, worth 50¥ to me.  The second guy is a moderately protected BTL dealer who fed him his habit until he wasted away, worth 5,000¥.  The third guy is the incredibly-well-protected Yakuza oyabun, living in a highly-restricted zero-ingress zero-egress apartment complex; he's worth 500,000¥.  Everything needs to be done by 9:00 PM tomorrow."  Team ABC agrees to the job.

Alex, Barry, and Chuck sit down together to figure out who's going to earn what.

"I'll do the addict," sighs Chuck, to which Alex and Barry agree, and Chuck goes off to find Mr. Addict and bury a knife in his skull as he drools in a BTL daydream.  He gets paid 50¥, goes home, and drinks some synthahol while watching the game on TV.

Alex and Barry look at each other.  "Well, can you get into the place to do the oyabun?" asks Alex.  Barry shakes his head; the place is, after all, a zero-zone, nobody in, nobody out.  "Do I look Japanese?  Not in the time allotted."  "I'll take the shot, then," says Alex, "but I need you to find out some details for me.  I'll pay you ten percent."  10% of 500,000¥ is 50,000¥, ten times as much as Barry's going to get for whacking the BTL dealer, but since he's got more skills than just pulling a trigger, Alex is willing to pay a piece of his own for Barry's ability to find him the info.  "And you help me get the Dealer's guards out of the way," adds Barry; Alex agrees.

For free, to buy some good will, Alex runs interference with the BTL dealer's thugs while Barry puts two in his chest and one in his skull from ten feet away; dead BTL dealer.  Barry gets paid 5,000¥.

Barry then turns around and goes to the rumormills for info on the oyabun's personal habits.  He works the crowds both in-person, schmoozing people and making nice to the ladies, spreading around a little bit of that 5k¥ he just got.  As well, he checks message boards and ShadowSea for fanzine info on the oyabun -- what does he like?  What habits does he have?  What's the design of the enclave in which he lives?  Ten hours later he comes back to Alex and says, "He eats dinner every evening at 7:00 PM, with the window always open eight centimeters.  Here's where he sits; here's a map of the enclave and surrounding buildings."

"Ah-ha!" says Alex, working the sight lines.  "I can take a shot from the 17th floor of this building, fire between these two buildings, through the 8cm window opening, and put the round into the oyabun's left eye.*"  At 7:17 PM the following evening, the Oyabun gets killed just that way.  Alex is paid 500,000¥, of which 50,000¥ goes to Barry for his generalist help.

---

Now.  That scenario requires everyone to do a job that requires a skill-level of their own -- 0, 2, and 6.  To properly squash the 'generalist gets paid more for the same job!!' argument, let's use just the BTL dealer.

Johnson: "I need BTL dealer dead."
Alex: "10,00¥ for a guaranteed kill, no matter his bodyguards.  Clean, quiet, one bullet, nobody sees me."
Barry: "5,000¥, I'll have to schmooze my way close to the guy to pop him, but I can get in.  Of course, I'll have to shoot my way back out at that point, but I'm pretty sure I can do the job."
Chuck: "50¥ and I'll jump him somewhere.  Don't think I'll get him, but I'm cheap."

7 times out of 10, Dave Johnson is going to go with the guaranteed, no-traceback Skill + 4 guy, and happily pay double for a job Very Well Done.  The last 3 times he'll go with Barry, but he'll keep Alex on mental speed-dial just in case it goes south and Barry's blood needs to be cleaned off the walls with the job still needing to be done.  He doesn't need a schmoozer or a hacker; he needs a shooter, so even if it's just a BTL dealer hit, he's going to pay for guaranteed, excellent work.  Otherwise it's almost literally a shot in the dark with the hope that you succeed.

* -- bonus point to the first person who states the fictional assassin who prefers this target.

[Mirikon]

Joe, I'm going to try and be very nice about this, but you have absolutely no idea how the world works.

If you want to look at specialists vs. generalists, there are four excellent areas from different fields you can look at to see why you are so very, very wrong.

1) Medicine. General Practitioners make far less money than specialists, even though the specialists see fewer clients. In fact, because the GP sees more clients, their expenses are higher, which further cuts into their bottom line. The specialist, however, gets paid much more for doing that brain surgery, because it takes more training time, skill, and expertise than "Turn your head and cough."

2) Military. On one hand you have an infantryman. On the other you have a sniper. You know who gets paid more? The sniper. Why? Because on top of the infantry training, they've also gone to sniper school, typically have a longer time of service, and are frequently higher ranked than the private who just got out of boot.

3) Hollywood. Will Ferrel only has one character that he renames and puts in different situations in each and every movie he's ever been in. He makes far more money per film than that guy who has a supporting role in four different movies every year playing wildly different characters. He makes far, far more money than the people playing extras, who are little more than set pieces.

4) Crime. A two bit hustler and an internationally wanted hit man both kill people. Both may be hired to kill people. The hustler gets paid a lot less for it, however, because the hit man not only has been killing people longer (without getting caught), but they do it without a trail leading back to whoever hired them.

In short, yes, a specialist won't get picked do do a job they're not qualified for. But they charge more for the jobs they are qualified, because they are better at them, and they get results.

[CitizenJoe]

In short, yes, a specialist won't get picked do do a job they're not qualified for. But they charge more for the jobs they are qualified, because they are better at them, and they get results.

That IS my point.  Specialists don't make more money because they are specialists, specialists make more money because it is easier for them to be better having to only master a small set of skills. But you can say that for anyone with skill levels at a point the market can bare. Compare a generalist and a specialist that are equally qualified for a job.

[Mirikon]

In short, yes, a specialist won't get picked do do a job they're not qualified for. But they charge more for the jobs they are qualified, because they are better at them, and they get results.

That IS my point.  Specialists don't make more money because they are specialists, specialists make more money because it is easier for them to be better having to only master a small set of skills. But you can say that for anyone with skill levels at a point the market can bare. Compare a generalist and a specialist that are equally qualified for a job.

If a generalist and a specialist are equally qualified for a job in the specialist's specialty, then either the generalist is a da Vinci-level genius, or the 'specialist' isn't so special.

[Zilfer]

In short, yes, a specialist won't get picked do do a job they're not qualified for. But they charge more for the jobs they are qualified, because they are better at them, and they get results.

That IS my point.  Specialists don't make more money because they are specialists, specialists make more money because it is easier for them to be better having to only master a small set of skills. But you can say that for anyone with skill levels at a point the market can bare. Compare a generalist and a specialist that are equally qualified for a job.

You don't seem to get it.... if they are equaly qualified to do the job then they are BOTH SPECIALISTS.

<.< Otherwise one wouldn't be qualified, and the other would. That's how we have the Specialist and the Generalist. I can attest to the Medical part of the examples as I mentioned before. Pretty sure my doctor's get paid more than general practitioners. Not as much as brain surgens but you know.

[CitizenJoe]

You don't seem to get it.... if they are equaly qualified to do the job then they are BOTH SPECIALISTS.

Alright, right there.  We disagree.  Because we are operating on different definitions of specialists.

[Mirikon]

Joe, you're missing one fundamental point about how the world works. When you're hired to do a job, you're hired for your skills AS THEY RELATE TO THE JOB. If you are hired to crack a safe, it doesn't matter if you're a decent actor. All that matters is how well you can crack a safe. Now while there may be an actor who is an expert safecracker, those are two time-demanding fields, which is why you don't see that many doing it, and is why someone tends to focus in one or the other.

Let me put it a different way. How many Magicians do you see that are expert hackers, while still being the equal of a Magician that isn't a hacker on the side?

[CitizenJoe]

I'm WELL aware of that. 

Clients hire people to get a specific job done.  They look for a certain level of competence, and then they work down the price.  If this is a one time gig, then you just check the phone book, make a few calls and see how much each is charging.  Not much investment on the client's end.  They are definitely looking for a specialist, but their looking for one that will work the cheapest, which means the least talented still able to accomplish the job.

But how much is the client really out?  He's got to do some research (scan the yellow pages), then he's got to put in the calls and assess each person, then he's probably got to front the risk if the guy isn't insured (like most of the cheap guys).  If he's lucky, that's about an hour.  If not, it can drag on for days.

But now let us assume that it isn't just one job, but the client wants to hire someone on full time.  Do you know how much that costs?  I've seen estimates in the 30-50 thousand dollar range with indirect costs adding another 100K on top of that.  A generalist can come in as "good enough" in four fields whereas the specialist comes in as "way over qualified" in just one field.

Yes, on the high end of the job requirements you do need the skills available only to specialists, but for the most part the jobs are more a matter of 'willing to do it' rather than 'capable of doing it'.  On the high end, specialists demand very high fees.  Are your runners getting those high fees?  If not, why are you pushing those skills when you're already good enough? 

[Zilfer]

If your looking to hire a specialist it's because you want a person to focus on only these type of jobs.

You don't for example hire a Hitman to go infiltrate a high security place just to steal something of value. You hire a Thief/Infiltrator.

If you want to hire someone for a multitude of things most of the time you don't hire 1 person you hire a group of people each covering a field, just like how it usually goes in a Shadowrun game. There's a person that covers, guns/fighting (usually street sam or adept) someone that cover's magic (Mage most of the time) and then if your lucky you have someone covering (Hacker), and then you need someone who's a face.

Am I going to hire someone to do all 4 of those? Probably not, because he's not going to be good in all four fields. <.<

If you go with the "cheap guys" you pay less, because they are not as specialized. Whether from experience or reviews, or certifications, or a Bachlor's or whatever. They get paid more because they have proof they spent more time on it.

But going with the "cheap guys" You can be less sure that they are going to have the skills to get the job done. If you go to an IT repair shop, you don't know if they will be able to repair your laptop. I worked in one while I was in college we charged FAR less than any specialist, partly because we were students still learning. $25 flat fee for any computer problem, bring it in the students will diagnose the problem fix it if they can, or tell you what you need to fix the problem your having, and if you need to buy anything they'll recommend where to buy it whether Newegg.com or Bestbuy(shudders) or whatever their prefered place is for that student. You take it to a IT Repair shop it's like 100$ just to get the diagnosis! Then more fee's on top of that.

This guy at my dad's work wants to charge him somewhere up to 150$ just to look at his computer which "May be" infected and dangerous for the work place. I'm not sure if he wanted to charge extra for putting what the company's "new antivirus" on there, but it's simple enough that I can do it if he gives me the key. xD Needless to specialists can be a pain, but when things go south your glad you have em.

[Black]

Joe, its true that some times you settle with 'good enough'.  Specially when your slush funds getting low from all the jobs your paying for.  But specialist have their role in the hmmm... genre.  Who hasn't seen the movie with the Tech Guy, the Gun Guy, the Face, etc.  And sometimes Mr Johnson is more then happy to pay that extra to get someone 'overqualified', because then the job gets done.  You don't hire Ken the Knife from the Cutters to assassinate the CEO, you hire Snarkle the Sniper of international fame/notority.  And from a player point of few, itsnt nice the be the 'best there is at what I do'?.  It of course helps the character is played in a nice balanced way, but I don't see any reason why some people wouldn't want to become specialist, and why you would discourage it?

[Leigion]

Man this is a old one but it had me laughing so hard i woke up my girlfriend. I am still giggling abruptly. Ok I find the irony of this whole argument hysterical. This debate that unfolded was about getting the negotiations realistic. Citizen Joe I am seriously making a Fixer NPC named C'jp after you. C'jo has runner teams low ball bid each other if they want to work this week. I absolutely love your business sense pure brilliants. You had %,you had paid expenses, you had bids on pay grade, you even worked a common junkie into a $50 murder. Thank you iam going to use that as well.

The worm makes a statement on hit man he read about in a book and if said hit man asks for the name he took the job. Then later states to Joe he's got no real world experience. Oh dear.. the lines going back and forth on you guys i swear it almost feels scripted but i know its not. You guys had me weeping that's how funny this stuff is. Seriously you two should do radio together C'jo and the worm in the morning 1011 KFX FM. You guys are so funny iam thinking about convincing you two to hop in vent/skype and just debate stuff all kinds of stuff not just shadowrun. There is more stuff the worm says that is funny just the hit man asking about targets name and he has to take the deal was priceless. Its in the first three things a hit man asks when deciding if its doing the job, Who is in their. He can walk away its only when he says Ill do it that he's in. Its expected a hit man will keep his mouth shut. If he cant, expect the people that he deals with will send another to shut it permanently. If that's not enough to keep him quite the lack of work because he cant keep his mouth shut and loss of street cred will.

I think the specialist and the general was epic though that's where i couldn't stop laughing Totally missed the forest from the trees on that one. Look yes the specialist will get paid no doubt but the general sees more work. He might get paid less and all but general means on the street 'this guy will do anything and he is always looking to get paid." Here let me put this in another way the specialist would still have to have a good street rep and connections to get paid well. because if he does not have street cred or connections he's still going to get paid the same wages as a general specialist or not.

Any who he's how it goes down if you want realistically.Lets break it down. Mr j wants a thing done so he calls a guy who knows some people to get it done. if he hear nothing back in a hour he's going to call another guy. Because its like anything else really when you want something you want it A.S.A.P. Now at the meet its 2-4 realistically. usually just 2 people 4 if people don't know each other and its usually the extras are just that watchers they don't really hear the deal they are just there.. So all this talk about 1/2 now 1/2 later that all movie's that not even realistic if you even think about it

OK hey this jobs 20k cool here ill give you have now incase you get happen to get picked up hit by a bus or a million other complications with it not getting done. HELL NO! they are not paying you no half now half later. They might give you something now on good faith for expenses if but the way they are going to look at it is if you don't got the tools why are you showing up for work. Example jobs 20k alright you know how much up front money you will see maybe a grand that right a grand on a maybe. After the job is done that when you have to collect and that's the risky part. You have to worry about a double cross at that point Usually though they want to pay you and be done if you did a good job it helps because they want to surround themselves with people who can get the job done. But sometimes people get greedy and don't want to pay or they want to tie you up as a loose end so the trigger man is dead and no one knows what really happened but the guy who had it done.