Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: street.mage on <01-19-12/2314:36>
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A fellow GM and I discussed this a year or so back, and basically the answer from him was, "It's too much micromanaging to really be even considered to use."
I kind of took it as just that because I didn't really have any ideas. It's not like you really use those little boxes on the character sheet for keeping track, since with all of the erasing and marking, you'd pretty much need a new character sheet each mission. I suppose that's possible, but that's a lot of paper and stuff.
I've thought about keeping track on a note card for a night, and just marking 4 llll with a slash through it for 5 bullets. Thought about using a bead counter on a bar, that you slide back and forth to represent bullets spent and such. So how do you keep track of ammo? Or do you?
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I have an old PDF that I got from "All Flesh Must Be Eaten" that has 30-Square boxes and 100-Square boxes to denote ammunition for myself. But unless the players when I'm running are using something other than regular ammo, I don't really pay attention other than to make sure they reload and have enough magazines.
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I'm not saying it this time. I'm not.
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I wait until they glitch, then they need to reload.
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I wait until they glitch, then they need to reload.
I'd say critical glitch personally. Like in either of the d20 Star Wars games. Roll a 1, hope you have a spare power pack.
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Critical Glitch would be more like a jam, or shooting your teammates, I think.
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Personally, I use Chummer, which lets you pick the weapon 'load' it with the proper ammo, and then 'fire' it, subtracting the proper amount of ammo from the clip and your total supply.
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Just how much shooting are you doing that it becomes a burden to track ammo? If you're talking about specialty ammo, then ya, you gotta track that because each shot is like a hundred nuyen. If you're talking about regular ammo stashed during downtime, just assume runners burn a few clips on the range to keep up their skills and scribble down the number of clips or boxes left. If you're talking about tracking ammo during a run, then they are likely going to check their supply before heading out.
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I usually just right it on a sheet of paper, but if that doesn't work for you, I suggest what Deadlands did. Make good sized bullet outlines on the side of your character sheets for the number of rounds in your primary weapon. Then use a paper clip to slide down the paper as you fire your gun.
Generally I always find it best to keep track of consumables that are used often on a separate page of notebook paper to keep the character sheet from getting worn out.
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I've mentioned this prop before, but is worth mentioning here.
A large whiteboard. A large enough whiteboard, and your players should be able to keep track of their ammo usage during combat on the edges, still leaving room for you to do rough maps, etc.
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BTW: I consider regular ammo to be part of lifestyle, especially for Shadowrunners, but even for John Q. Wageslave. It's a dangerous world out there.
Special ammo, OTOH...
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Personally, I use Chummer, which lets you pick the weapon 'load' it with the proper ammo, and then 'fire' it, subtracting the proper amount of ammo from the clip and your total supply.
I'm actually thinking that's how i'm going to track it soon. xD
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While I always buy plenty of ammo just in case, I find it to be too much of a hassle which detracts from the fun of the game to micro-manage the tracking of ammo.
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Unless there's a reason to be concerned In Game I don't care that much. if someone is abusing something then maybe I'd track, but honestly it's not often a major concern at our table. But then I can also say that few of my players bother with anything other than standard ammunition either.
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I have a simple clip system I use:
I know what weapons my players are carrying into a run (cause I ask for a load out from each player before they "go out") and I write down the ammo cap per mag per player. Then I ask how many mags they are packing PER weapon/ammo load (ie: 1 mag gel, 2 mags APDS, 2 mags reg. for Faden's Manhunter)
Then, on their initiative pass, if they shoot, I add a tick next to their name, when they are out off ammo (and they don't notice it themselves!) after they roll their attack, I announce that their weapon goes "click"... And watch their eyes bulge!
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I usually just right it on a sheet of paper, but if that doesn't work for you, I suggest what Deadlands did. Make good sized bullet outlines on the side of your character sheets for the number of rounds in your primary weapon. Then use a paper clip to slide down the paper as you fire your gun.
Generally I always find it best to keep track of consumables that are used often on a separate page of notebook paper to keep the character sheet from getting worn out.
That's awesome. This may be an idea; I've been contemplating making new character sheets anyway and may add this feature "along the sides," kind of in boxes like a damage track. Thus, the player chooses their most "used" gun and weapon mode, marks how many bullets are shot in the graphic of the bullet/bullet hole, and slides the paper clip down when they fire. A gunslinger that commonly used two different guns could color mark the bullets or paper clips.
And I didn't really specify what I was talking about when I made the OP. Sorry about that. Also sorry I haven't checked on this question sooner. I'm actually talking about keeping track of bullets shot in their clips during combat; not purchasing and keeping track of regular ammo or specific AP or Gel round ammo. I re-read my original question and was like, "Really? That was really informative...facepalm."
Purpose of the question is that I'm a fairly new GM to the game; I've GMed all manners of D&D editions back in the day, a few WOD games, and one SR game. It was pretty simple. I'm easing my players into the rules, getting more complex as we play (for example, next time I'm going over when it's good to use a narrow/wide burst for gunslingers, magical lodge and counterspelling for the mage, charging and intercepting a charge for the ork brawler, and I'll do something else that benefits the specific characters for them soon) because you have to admit - until you get the hang of it, this game is extremely complex; and most of my players think so too. I'm also going to be going over actions; the first game was basic combat stuff, the second game they got in their first "real fight," but for their actions it was like, "What do you want your character to do," wait for an explanation, then "Ok, well of all that, this is what you can do. Yes, you can shoot him again."
But while I was getting the stage set for how I was going to present it, the tracking of firing ammo (normal ammo) until it's time to reload or etc, because if you ignore it, you're basically throwing away several key elements for simple actions (unload without a smartlink, reload). And we all love the actions in the movies when the hero, or in this case, anti-hero, runs out of ammo at the last second, to reload, jump into the fray and bury two bullets into the two antagonist goons trying to make him part of the wall decor.
But after typing all of that and commenting on the "bullet" tracker with a clip, that also means as a GM, I probably need to track it too, and the NPC's have much more options of weapons and amount of normal ammo per clip, etc. Any suggestions? Or should I just ignore switching out ammo in combat because it's too tedious to mess with while you're doing all the modifiers to determine your dice pool?
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think i'll be stealing the "don't bother to track til the glitch" method
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Really depends on what style of game you and your players want to be playing.
If you lean toward the pink mohawk style of play and that's what everyone wants, then go for the less tedious don't really worry about it method. It takes a way a few key aspects of the game, but makes things feel more last action heroish which is right in tune with the style.
If you lean toward the black trenchcoat spectrum, I suggest keeping track of it and encouraging your players to keep track of it as well.
I personally dislike the glitch method, because 90% of the time I'm using a smartlink and I should see the ammunition ticking down. Then again, I prefer a more trenchcoaty game most of the time.
Here's a few links to show how the Deadlands sheets were done:
Hell on Earth (http://peginc.com/Downloads/HellonEarth/HOECS.pdf)
Weird West (http://scotthacker.tripod.com/downloads/dlgeneric.pdf)
I can't find the older copy of the Hell on Earth one, but it used small bullet outlines that perfectly fit the smaller sized paper clips instead of dots. That one never made it to print though so its ridiculously hard to find.
Other things to keep in mind if you design your own sheets and intend to use paper clips with them:
A.) You can use both how deep the clip is into the sheet and the length of the sheet for 2D tracking instead of just straight lines.
B.) You can use different colored paper clips to mean different things.
C.) There are many sizes of paper clips so design for the one you want to use.
If you notice on the DL sheets the wound key lists colors. That was for using different colored clips to track damage to locations so you didn't have to constantly write and erase your damage and wear out your sheet. I can see a similar system being used to track damage along the bottom or side of an SR sheet with colors representing the track (example: Red = Physical, Green = Stun, Blue = Matrix, etc.).
Since Ammo counts vary so significantly in SR, you might be better off just doing a few ten or fifteen round outlines and having different colors act as a multiplier as well (example: grey = x1, yellow = x2, green = x3, blue = x4. On a fifteen round track you could track anything from a fifteen round Predator IV to the sixty round Supermach 100).
Last note, makes sure to use colors that are available if you use this route. It would suck beyond belief to use purple and realize that you can't find purple paper clips to save your life after printing twenty character sheets.
On to the other bit, keeping track of player's ammo as the GM can be frustratingly difficult at times. Not because of the information, you know what the players are doing, but because of the space needed on paper to write and rewrite constantly. When I bother with it (depends on the game and style I'm running) I use something very similar to the above method with colored paper clips.
First, I get some thick posterboard or cardboard. Then I cut it into a polygon with a number of sides equal to the number of players plus three or four (this will let you keep track of extra NPCs, drones, etc easily too). Tick off marks for a ten round or fifteen round track, whichever works best for you, and devise a multiplier table like the one in the example above. Now tracking ammo is a piece of cake. Just add character names (or numbers that you assign to characters each session) and you're set.
If you want to take it even further, you can add in slots for common ammo types too. In SR 3 I had Ex-EX, Gel, Norm and APDS on all the sides. I usually do this as a depth slot to make the entire finished tracker a bit smaller, but again use what works best for you. This lets you easily glance and notice what kind of ammo the character has loaded if they aren't paying too close attention (nothing like watching a guy put fifteen rounds into a lock in partial light only to realize he isn't missing but is using gel rounds ;D).
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I miss Deadlands. :'(
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As a general rule, I started keeping track of what gear the players had and their ammo expendatures after a particularly bad and unnecessary scene back in '97. Long story short, there was particularly long firefight that lasted almost two hours real-time play. Now, the characters were ambushed and as such no one had anything on them larger than a heavy pistol, except for the orc merc who also had a chopped Remington 990. Anway, there was a street sam who abused his Savalette Guardian by 1) Using it on burst fire and shooting it three times more than the mag/clip would have allowed 2) Not playing by the burst fire rules for that weapon requires a complex action (but that was my fault, and I fudged to get the encounter over) 3) Argued with me that he kept firing because he had all 2000 rounds for that weapon on his person, when two other characters ran dry of ammo. Now like I said, I fudged things a bit for the runners during this encounter because hardly anyone one was hitting and I wanted to get it over with after hour one. But this player kept dragging things along.
Now, the real problem didnt happen until after the session when I told the group that I did fudge things for them but that in the future, I would like them to keep track of their ammo, rules for their weapons, reloading, and act accordingly so we dont have something like this in the future. Street Sam Guy got quite pissed off at me and accused me of trying to stack things in my favor, even though he ended up with the highest body count of the game and had only a light wound while everyone else was near death. It was a case of powergamer-syndrome so I dediced to start keeping track of all gear the players have during a particular scene and kept track of all ammo expendatures on a litle cheat-sheet. And I let all players know that ammo consumption is a part of the game and it will be taken into account.
If someone makes an honest mistake in the heat of the moment, that's one thing. To ignore rules and try and purpousely try and get one over on the GM is another, IMHO.
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Needless to say it sounds like had got the better end of that deal, not sure why he was complaining. Anyways yeah got to make sure they keep track of their ammo.
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Needless to say it sounds like had got the better end of that deal, not sure why he was complaining. Anyways yeah got to make sure they keep track of their ammo.
I'm not sure if he was mad that I called him on his...errors...or that he was just a piece of the male anatomy in general. But I think that he was just one of those people who lived his life through his chracters so he saw it as a direct attack on himself. Ah well, I was still new to the GM thing at the time, lessons learned.
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Needless to say it sounds like had got the better end of that deal, not sure why he was complaining. Anyways yeah got to make sure they keep track of their ammo.
I'm not sure if he was mad that I called him on his...errors...or that he was just a piece of the male anatomy in general. But I think that he was just one of those people who lived his life through his chracters so he saw it as a direct attack on himself. Ah well, I was still new to the GM thing at the time, lessons learned.
The game is always evolving and trust me, i have quite a few similiar people like that out of my group. (we have 10+ players that are in and out and about 6 regulars. xD DnD/Shadowrun heaven. Mostly focusing on DnD right now unforunately. D:)
I pretty much go if they really didn't like it they wouldn't come back every weekend. DM's law you don't like it get another person to DM or DM yourself. :D It's pretty much what I did or have taken over. Would enjoy a break but there's just too many loose ends for me to stop. (the curse of a DM the stories never over because you always think of something else.)
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Ammo tracking was always a huge pain in the hoop.
Then I got "Chummer" for FREE!!!!
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I have a simple clip system I use:
I know what weapons my players are carrying into a run (cause I ask for a load out from each player before they "go out") and I write down the ammo cap per mag per player. Then I ask how many mags they are packing PER weapon/ammo load (ie: 1 mag gel, 2 mags APDS, 2 mags reg. for Faden's Manhunter)
Then, on their initiative pass, if they shoot, I add a tick next to their name, when they are out off ammo (and they don't notice it themselves!) after they roll their attack, I announce that their weapon goes "click"... And watch their eyes bulge!
....How bad that Smartlink is such a Spoilsport ;)
most of my Chars use Smartlinked Weapons that tell them in Advance when to change Mags
with a forewarned Dance
Medicineman
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Indeed. I always use smartguns. There's really no reason not to.
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Indeed. I always use smartguns. There's really no reason not to.
I just love when an enemy tries to use your own gun against you.... :D
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Indeed. I always use smartguns. There's really no reason not to.
Except when someone finds a way to jam/hack your weapon. I find that having a low-tech "dumb" weapon as backup is always a good idea.
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Indeed. I always use smartguns. There's really no reason not to.
Except when someone finds a way to jam/hack your weapon. I find that having a low-tech "dumb" weapon as backup is always a good idea.
Strip out the wireless and use Skinlink, with your 'backup' weapon in an Arm Slide and hard-linked via fiber-cable to a datajack in your forearm.
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Or my personal favorite: a straight out-of-the-box Colt Manhunter or Browinging Ultra-Power with laser sights. Not everyone can have a datajack installed. Awakened people need guns too. Not as good as a smartlink, but then I've always felt that one should rely more on skill than accessories.
;)
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When I buy ammo for my character's weapons (in other games, I GM Shadowrun) I record it on the character sheet as number of reloads, that I cross off as character reloads.
And use dice to keep track of ammo in the gun - saves on rubbing / crossing out on the sheet everytime you fire.
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When I GM I lean more toward keeping track, but it ultimately depends on the type of game I'm going for and what the players want to play. If it's a one shot deal I'll let things slide, but for an angoing campaign that I'm going to spend a lot of time on, I'm going to constantly edge people toward keeping track. Back when I played regularly most of the guys a ran with were pretty into guns in real life, and wanted the game to be more realistic, so yeah, we kept track of every bullet, every clip, where it was stashed on you or in your safe house, even to the point that people would declare they were emptying clips and putting the bullets in fresh clips so the springs wouldn't get messed up from being compressed all the time. The changing the clips thing out was their idea, but knowing what you had and where was mine. I grew up/cut my RPG teeth on Dark Sun, so managing limited resources has always been sorta second nature. The last time I played, it was me and some guys playing a one shot as everyone happened to be in town for christmass, and there was no keeping track whatso ever.
As a player, I have a seperate sheet of paper (normally a few) to keep notes durring the game. NPC names, locations we go to, objectives for the mission, stuff I pick up and stuff I use along the way. This is where I keep track of ammo/clips. At the end of the session, I go through and update the original character sheet and either crumple and toss the scratch sheet, or if there's room use it again for next session.
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When I GM I lean more toward keeping track, but it ultimately depends on the type of game I'm going for and what the players want to play. If it's a one shot deal I'll let things slide, but for an angoing campaign that I'm going to spend a lot of time on, I'm going to constantly edge people toward keeping track. Back when I played regularly most of the guys a ran with were pretty into guns in real life, and wanted the game to be more realistic, so yeah, we kept track of every bullet, every clip, where it was stashed on you or in your safe house, even to the point that people would declare they were emptying clips and putting the bullets in fresh clips so the springs wouldn't get messed up from being compressed all the time. The changing the clips thing out was their idea, but knowing what you had and where was mine. I grew up/cut my RPG teeth on Dark Sun, so managing limited resources has always been sorta second nature. The last time I played, it was me and some guys playing a one shot as everyone happened to be in town for christmass, and there was no keeping track whatso ever.
As a player, I have a seperate sheet of paper (normally a few) to keep notes durring the game. NPC names, locations we go to, objectives for the mission, stuff I pick up and stuff I use along the way. This is where I keep track of ammo/clips. At the end of the session, I go through and update the original character sheet and either crumple and toss the scratch sheet, or if there's room use it again for next session.
*with a troll-face on* Don't you mean mags? :P ::)
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Don't get me started.
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*shrugs* Everyone thinks they're elite.
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*shrugs* Everyone thinks they're elite.
I think I'm far, far from it, actually.
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No, it's just that the mags vs clips debate/discussion is one that tends to go out of control (and has) here many times before. Lets not go there this time, for all our sanity (and to avoid thread lock) OK?
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No, it's just that the mags vs clips debate/discussion is one that tends to go out of control (and has) here many times before. Lets not go there this time, for all our sanity (and to avoid thread lock) OK?
I'm going to get started soon. ;D
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yeah right,
right after a few sessions of actually PLAYING shadowrun?
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yeah right,
right after a few sessions of actually PLAYING shadowrun?
...
...
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I'm going to go to my corner and cry now. :'( Thanks.
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yeah right,
right after a few sessions of actually PLAYING shadowrun?
Big meany. :P
Everyone gets cookies, EXCEPT Beowulf!
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good,
dear gods do i NOT need them.
besides, cookies don't go well with hefeweizen
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I'm planing to make some laminated cards for guns So I can fill in it's stats as well as what types of ammo I have with me and how many mags of each with a dry erase marker . they would look some thing like this
Gun: Dam: AP: Mode: RC:
Ammo: DM: AP:
Shots:OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO
Clips: OOOOO OOOOO
Ammo: DM: AP:
Shots:OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO
Clips: OOOOO OOOOO
Ammo: DM: AP:
Shots:OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO
Clips: OOOOO OOOOO
For example a card for the standard Predator might look like this
Predator IV Dam: 5P AP: -1 Mode: SA RC:0
Ammo
Standard
Shots: OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO
Clips:: OOOO
Explosive DM: +1 AP: 0
Shots: OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO
Clips OOOO
Every time I fire a shot, I fill in one of the "O" s, and once I empty a clip I fill in one of those "O"
The actual card would have more "O" then shown and extra ones would be all ready filled in or just crossed off.
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I found ammo isnt a major issue, generally only a few shot are fired here and there strategically unless its a major battle and then I issue the players with columns of 1 x 1 LEGO bricks that they surrender per shot when they shoot.
The bigger issue I found was collected assets, I just recently made them sit down and tally their accumulated assets, to which they discovered they had between them about 30 half used stealth lines and about 50 catalyst sticks!
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The easiest method of ammo tracking i've found is using poker chips. Each player sets apart different stacks for each clip and when they shoot they throw the ammo used in a bowl. counting the chips is a simple action as per 1st-3rd edition rules firearms are equipped with digital ammo count readouts. sg link also tracks all ammo usage.
makes the combat smoother, and my player like pretending to "load" their clips while discussing final mission prep.
hope that helps your games!
SC13
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Again, I think it is raw silliness to micro-manage the tracking of ammo. It is NOT that big a deal, and it is NOT a "key element of the game" to do so.
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Well that would depend largely on the type of game being played. It's a fairly large element of combat, so if you play a non-action movie style game, then it is a key element in combat scenarios.
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It's only "key" if the goal is to micro manage combat so much that all the fun is drained out of it just because the GM doesn't want a lot of combat and is trying to 'force' it down.
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or if the goal is for a realistic game. Mechanically speaking, ammo is a balance factor for many weapons. Ignoring it for some and not others will skew the balance, but ignoring it across the board also skews balance.
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Goal being for draining fun out of combat... Goal for "realism"... Same thing. It's a game. Uber realism being injected in is the antithesis of fun, and no, ammo tracking does nothing to the 'balance' stuff. "Balance" is just something that gets pulled out in efforts to make the PCs weak as little kittens in comparison to the opposition.
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At the point that you actually need to keep track of ammo, the game is already not fun. It has turned into a grinding slog. YMMV.
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Again, I think it is raw silliness to micro-manage the tracking of ammo. It is NOT that big a deal, and it is NOT a "key element of the game" to do so.
To some it is. Doesnt mean you're wrong, but some groups consider it key. And it is priceless when a runner pulls a trigger and gets nothing because he skimped on smartlink and basic math skills.
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To some it is. Doesnt mean you're wrong, but some groups consider it key. And it is priceless when a runner pulls a trigger and gets nothing because he skimped on smartlink and basic math skills.
Or pops a narcojet capsule/gel round into that lock because it completely skipped his mind to switch mags while he was balls to the wall running from that Firewatch team.
Goal being for draining fun out of combat... Goal for "realism"... Same thing. It's a game. Uber realism being injected in is the antithesis of fun,
Which is perfectly valid if you add a "to me" to it, but it is an opinion of yours, not a fact. Some of us like the challenge of actually playing a realistic game. There are plenty of games out there that allow for much higher action movie antics. I prefer my SR a perfectly brewed mix of grit and dystopia. Allowing the movie gun clips that never run out of bullets is pretty much the opposite of that feel.
and no, ammo tracking does nothing to the 'balance' stuff. "Balance" is just something that gets pulled out in efforts to make the PCs weak as little kittens in comparison to the opposition.
I suggest actually taking a few seconds, seriously just a few, to head to Google and take a gander at game balancing. Balancing is a required aspect of games, otherwise it becomes a sole matter of what is liked the most wins and everything else (stats, dice rolls, etc.) is irrelevant. It's pretty much the opposite of what you've stated, in a world undeniably oriented to opposed the shadowrunners, balance is what keeps them able to compete, because whatever they can do, corps can do bigger, better, and with more explosions.
As for the actual ammunition balance, you seem to have completely jumped ship and missed the entire point of how ammunition plays a factor in balance. It's not an issue of runners vs. opposition, but gun A vs. gun B.
Let's take the sporting rifle for example. If ammunition is "infinitely loaded" with no need to track, then why would you take any of the rifles other than the Elephant Rifle (using the core book only for the moment). The cost difference really is a non-issue in the great scheme of things and 10P (no point in not double barreling it every shot with no ammo tracking) -1 is leaps and bounds better than 7P -1.
To say, in effect, that all balance is just there to make players "weak as kittens" is just blatant willful ignorance. Now, there is a difference between system balance, and a GM being a douche and calling it "balance". That doesn't mean that the system balance is bad, but that the GM is bad. You can't fault the car for having a shitty driver.
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To say, in effect, that all balance is just there to make players "weak as kittens" is just blatant willful ignorance. Now, there is a difference between system balance, and a GM being a douche and calling it "balance". That doesn't mean that the system balance is bad, but that the GM is bad. You can't fault the car for having a shitty driver.
I said that it gets pulled out, flaunted around and the term used for that purpose.
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"Balance" is just something that gets pulled out in efforts to make the PCs weak as little kittens
You said that is what the term is used for. Not that it can be used for that, but that is just what balance is. The context, likewise, implied that was the meaning.
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Again, I think it is raw silliness to micro-manage the tracking of ammo. It is NOT that big a deal, and it is NOT a "key element of the game" to do so.
To some it is. Doesnt mean you're wrong, but some groups consider it key. And it is priceless when a runner pulls a trigger and gets nothing because he skimped on smartlink and basic math skills.
Or a Math SPU.
For my characters, I keep very close track of what my character has, where it is, and so on. What's in the apartment, what's in the vehicle, what's on my body. But that's me. Most of my group is of the type that's lucky to ID an AK-47 variant on the TV when they see one, and don't want that much work for something like Shadowrun.
Post Apocalyptic game, OTOH, they love that kind of stuff. It's all about the genera.
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Here's a PDF of mini "adventure" sheets (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8998700/DNR-Shadowrun/adventure%20Sheet.pdf). I recommend some good scotch "magic tape" over the ammo & damage box areas -- makes it easy to erase with a pencil. Keep track of what equipment you took on the run, etc. for up to 3 characters on the sheet...
Also, if you like the the Wordman/Jhaiisiin SR4 sheet, you might like the merc sheets I created as a variation...
There was no "extra weapons" sheet, just the mercenary back & the gear extra page.... neither of which was satisfactory. So here's one with "extra weapons" on the back (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8998700/DNR-Shadowrun/sr4sheet-Mercenary%20with%20Weapons-CII.pdf) and a front-side sheet with extra weapons & skills (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8998700/DNR-Shadowrun/sr4sheets--Weap%20and%20Skills%20Mod%20Front-CII.pdf) (removed the vehicle on the front because it's so redundant with some of the other sheets that have a vehicle on the back...and there's the extra vehicle sheets if your character is a collector...) ...
May send the ideas to Jhaiisiin....for hir next release.
Been working on a sheet for ShadowBrats....
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Game balance is easy when the players and dm tust each other. ive been doing this along time, and one thing about shadowrun that sets it apart is the social aspect. combat is combat, but in shadowrun it comes down as much to who you kill as to ther or not you loose. Ive had people start getting crazy with blasting. Its real easy for that Lone Star, generic NPC to become a mafia dons only son. PC's that want to lug around heavy, conspicuous gear all the time, thousands of ammo rounds or heavy body armor run a big risk in the wrong neighborhood. Wether its Lone Star stopping them or gangers goin "hey, I want that big gun, lets go up the street...you five hide in the alley and jump him from behind, ill get the drop on him with my uzi 3 from a window."
Its not DND. you cant just slaughter the village.
If the PCs get really wound over ammo counting thats cool, dont do it. just dont make the npcs count. Go full auto every time. Balance is just giving npcsthe same advantage the pcs want.
and as for micromanaging, a good dm has to micromanage everything about his npcs. i dont think having players count ammo is a huge deal. i dont consider that too realistic...too realistic is when a dm marks damage locations, says your trigger fnger was shot off, the armor value dropped becaue you were hit three times same place, you forgot tot ie your shoelace, the dodge you did grazed your retina.....
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I have been guilty of 3 of 5 micromanaging examples ;D
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that leaves me with 40% chance to avoid micromanagemanet...... better than i get anywhere else at least
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To some it is. Doesnt mean you're wrong, but some groups consider it key. And it is priceless when a runner pulls a trigger and gets nothing because he skimped on smartlink and basic math skills.
Or pops a narcojet capsule/gel round into that lock because it completely skipped his mind to switch mags while he was balls to the wall running from that Firewatch team.
I'm reminded of the time our resident Sniper... you know, the one with the Gun Of Pure Win... was trying to take down some nameless bartender and used an APDS round instead of a Stick'n'Shock.
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I have a simple clip system I use:
I know what weapons my players are carrying into a run (cause I ask for a load out from each player before they "go out") and I write down the ammo cap per mag per player. Then I ask how many mags they are packing PER weapon/ammo load (ie: 1 mag gel, 2 mags APDS, 2 mags reg. for Faden's Manhunter)
Then, on their initiative pass, if they shoot, I add a tick next to their name, when they are out off ammo (and they don't notice it themselves!) after they roll their attack, I announce that their weapon goes "click"... And watch their eyes bulge!
....How bad that Smartlink is such a Spoilsport ;)
most of my Chars use Smartlinked Weapons that tell them in Advance when to change Mags
with a forewarned Dance
Medicineman
Alot is going in combat, shooting, rolling, tracking a target, trying to follow what is happening around you, etc... Easy to miss that little flashing number next to "bullets remaining"....
In short, if that are to lazy to double check their own expenditures of ammo (cause hey, I do make mistakes, only human after all!) then their character was too lazy (occupied,etc) to notice what the ammo counter said :D
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I have a simple clip system I use:
I know what weapons my players are carrying into a run (cause I ask for a load out from each player before they "go out") and I write down the ammo cap per mag per player. Then I ask how many mags they are packing PER weapon/ammo load (ie: 1 mag gel, 2 mags APDS, 2 mags reg. for Faden's Manhunter)
Then, on their initiative pass, if they shoot, I add a tick next to their name, when they are out off ammo (and they don't notice it themselves!) after they roll their attack, I announce that their weapon goes "click"... And watch their eyes bulge!
....How bad that Smartlink is such a Spoilsport ;)
most of my Chars use Smartlinked Weapons that tell them in Advance when to change Mags
with a forewarned Dance
Medicineman
Alot is going in combat, shooting, rolling, tracking a target, trying to follow what is happening around you, etc... Easy to miss that little flashing number next to "bullets remaining"....
In short, if that are to lazy to double check their own expenditures of ammo (cause hey, I do make mistakes, only human after all!) then their character was too lazy (occupied,etc) to notice what the ammo counter said :D
Or a smartlink could flash an image of "Reload" across your screen when your out just like in the arcade. <.<
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Or a smartlink could flash an image of "Reload" across your screen when your out just like in the arcade. <.<
What makes you think they don't? ;D
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That was my intended point at the poster above. It doesn't have to be a "small counter in the corner of your eye that you didn't notice." It could be any number of things to remind them to reload. If they can't keep track of their ammo that "RELOAD" comes accross their screen is you reminding them they need to reload.
if they Continually do that then i could see maybe penalizing them but not much, it' s just a game afterall.
You know it's awesome Canray I can see you within the next few sessions mentioning something like that. xD
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Depending on the setup it doesn't even have to be a visual cue. With a simrig or wired DNI, you could have an audible cue (anything from simple chime to a short "What's with all these MFing empty mags in my MFing magwell"), a tactile cue (back of the support hand hot for low ammo and burning for empty), or even smell/taste for the weird people out there (when my gun's empty I smell lilacs and taste pepper). Any number of which should give a very very non-subtle clue that you're running out of ammo like a jackass.
Then again, I wish we had more official rules on the smartlink and settings for it. I think their should be optional settings for things like auto-ejecting spent clips, auto-switching ammunition (useful for blowing out glass with an Ex-Ex followed by an APDS called shot to target 8 holding that hostage), or even auto-changing fire modes in certain situations. Setting up parameters for the computer processes shouldn't be too hard, but then again that would go against the streamlining of the game.
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That sounds badass, can someone say homebrew prototype? ^
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I working on it slowly but surely.