NEWS

Keeping track of ammo

  • 66 Replies
  • 26356 Views

Crash_00

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #45 on: <03-09-12/1248:20> »
Well that would depend largely on the type of game being played. It's a fairly large element of combat, so if you play a non-action movie style game, then it is a key element in combat scenarios.

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #46 on: <03-09-12/1250:59> »
It's only "key" if the goal is to micro manage combat so much that all the fun is drained out of it just because the GM doesn't want a lot of combat and is trying to 'force' it down.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Crash_00

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #47 on: <03-09-12/1258:14> »
or if the goal is for a realistic game. Mechanically speaking, ammo is a balance factor for many weapons. Ignoring it for some and not others will skew the balance, but ignoring it across the board also skews balance.

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #48 on: <03-09-12/1302:42> »
Goal being for draining fun out of combat... Goal for "realism"... Same thing. It's a game. Uber realism being injected in is the antithesis of fun, and no, ammo tracking does nothing to the 'balance' stuff.  "Balance" is just something that gets pulled out in efforts to make the PCs weak as little kittens in comparison to the opposition.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

CitizenJoe

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1333
« Reply #49 on: <03-09-12/1316:57> »
At the point that you actually need to keep track of ammo, the game is already not fun.  It has turned into a grinding slog.  YMMV.

ArkangelWinter

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 813
  • A thing need not exist to be real
« Reply #50 on: <03-09-12/1319:50> »
Again, I think it is raw silliness to micro-manage the tracking of ammo. It is NOT that big a deal, and it is NOT a "key element of the game" to do so.

To some it is. Doesnt mean you're wrong, but some groups consider it key. And it is priceless when a runner pulls a trigger and gets nothing because he skimped on smartlink and basic math skills.

Crash_00

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #51 on: <03-09-12/1339:45> »
Quote
To some it is. Doesnt mean you're wrong, but some groups consider it key. And it is priceless when a runner pulls a trigger and gets nothing because he skimped on smartlink and basic math skills.
Or pops a narcojet capsule/gel round into that lock because it completely skipped his mind to switch mags while he was balls to the wall running from that Firewatch team.

Quote
Goal being for draining fun out of combat... Goal for "realism"... Same thing. It's a game. Uber realism being injected in is the antithesis of fun,

Which is perfectly valid if you add a "to me" to it, but it is an opinion of yours, not a fact. Some of us like the challenge of actually playing a realistic game. There are plenty of games out there that allow for much higher action movie antics. I prefer my SR a perfectly brewed mix of grit and dystopia. Allowing the movie gun clips that never run out of bullets is pretty much the opposite of that feel.

Quote
and no, ammo tracking does nothing to the 'balance' stuff.  "Balance" is just something that gets pulled out in efforts to make the PCs weak as little kittens in comparison to the opposition.
I suggest actually taking a few seconds, seriously just a few, to head to Google and take a gander at game balancing. Balancing is a required aspect of games, otherwise it becomes a sole matter of what is liked the most wins and everything else (stats, dice rolls, etc.) is irrelevant. It's pretty much the opposite of what you've stated, in a world undeniably oriented to opposed the shadowrunners, balance is what keeps them able to compete, because whatever they can do, corps can do bigger, better, and with more explosions.

As for the actual ammunition balance, you seem to have completely jumped ship and missed the entire point of how ammunition plays a factor in balance. It's not an issue of runners vs. opposition, but gun A vs. gun B.

Let's take the sporting rifle for example. If ammunition is "infinitely loaded" with no need to track, then why would you take any of the rifles other than the Elephant Rifle (using the core book only for the moment). The cost difference really is a non-issue in the great scheme of things and 10P (no point in not double barreling it every shot with no ammo tracking) -1 is leaps and bounds better than 7P -1.

To say, in effect, that all balance is just there to make players "weak as kittens" is just blatant willful ignorance. Now, there is a difference between system balance, and a GM being a douche and calling it "balance". That doesn't mean that the system balance is bad, but that the GM is bad. You can't fault the car for having a shitty driver.

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #52 on: <03-09-12/1408:22> »
To say, in effect, that all balance is just there to make players "weak as kittens" is just blatant willful ignorance. Now, there is a difference between system balance, and a GM being a douche and calling it "balance". That doesn't mean that the system balance is bad, but that the GM is bad. You can't fault the car for having a shitty driver.

I said that it gets pulled out, flaunted around and the term used for that purpose.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Crash_00

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #53 on: <03-09-12/1414:29> »
Quote
"Balance" is just something that gets pulled out in efforts to make the PCs weak as little kittens
You said that is what the term is used for. Not that it can be used for that, but that is just what balance is. The context, likewise, implied that was the meaning.

CanRay

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • ***
  • Posts: 11141
  • Spouter of Random Words
« Reply #54 on: <03-09-12/1517:58> »
Again, I think it is raw silliness to micro-manage the tracking of ammo. It is NOT that big a deal, and it is NOT a "key element of the game" to do so.
To some it is. Doesnt mean you're wrong, but some groups consider it key. And it is priceless when a runner pulls a trigger and gets nothing because he skimped on smartlink and basic math skills.
Or a Math SPU.

For my characters, I keep very close track of what my character has, where it is, and so on.  What's in the apartment, what's in the vehicle, what's on my body.  But that's me.  Most of my group is of the type that's lucky to ID an AK-47 variant on the TV when they see one, and don't want that much work for something like Shadowrun.

Post Apocalyptic game, OTOH, they love that kind of stuff.  It's all about the genera.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

crisses

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 184
  • You're out of my mind.
« Reply #55 on: <03-09-12/1709:04> »
Here's a PDF of mini "adventure" sheets.  I recommend some good scotch "magic tape" over the ammo & damage box areas -- makes it easy to erase with a pencil.  Keep track of what equipment you took on the run, etc. for up to 3 characters on the sheet...

Also, if you like the the Wordman/Jhaiisiin SR4 sheet, you might like the merc sheets I created as a variation...

There was no "extra weapons" sheet, just the mercenary back & the gear extra page.... neither of which was satisfactory.  So here's one with "extra weapons" on the back and a front-side sheet with extra weapons & skills (removed the vehicle on the front because it's so redundant with some of the other sheets that have a vehicle on the back...and there's the extra vehicle sheets if your character is a collector...) ...

May send the ideas to Jhaiisiin....for hir next release.

Been working on a sheet for ShadowBrats....

ShadowChaser13

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Find your own truth
« Reply #56 on: <03-09-12/1935:24> »
Game balance is easy when the players and dm tust each other.  ive been doing this along time, and one thing about shadowrun that sets it apart is the social aspect.  combat is combat, but in shadowrun it comes down as much to who you kill as to ther or not you loose.  Ive had people start getting  crazy with blasting.  Its real easy for that Lone Star, generic NPC to become a mafia dons only son.  PC's that want to lug around heavy, conspicuous gear all the time, thousands of ammo rounds or heavy body armor run a big risk in the wrong neighborhood.  Wether its Lone Star stopping them or gangers goin "hey, I want that big gun, lets go up the street...you five hide in the alley and jump him from behind, ill get the drop on him with my uzi 3 from a window."
Its not DND.  you cant just slaughter the village.
If the PCs get really wound over ammo counting thats cool, dont do it.   just dont make the npcs count.  Go full auto every time.  Balance is just giving npcsthe same advantage the pcs want.
and as for micromanaging, a good dm has to micromanage everything about his npcs.  i dont think having players count ammo is a huge deal.  i dont consider that too realistic...too realistic is when a dm marks damage locations, says your trigger fnger was shot off, the armor value dropped becaue you were hit three times same place, you forgot tot ie your shoelace, the dodge you did grazed your retina.....
Watch your back,
Shoot straight,
Conserve ammo,
And.....

SC13

ArkangelWinter

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 813
  • A thing need not exist to be real
« Reply #57 on: <03-09-12/2119:33> »
I have been guilty of 3 of 5 micromanaging examples   ;D

ShadowChaser13

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Find your own truth
« Reply #58 on: <03-09-12/2131:33> »
that leaves me with 40% chance to avoid micromanagemanet...... better than i get anywhere else at least
Watch your back,
Shoot straight,
Conserve ammo,
And.....

SC13

JustADude

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
  • Madness? This! Is! A FORUM!
« Reply #59 on: <03-09-12/2348:05> »
Quote
To some it is. Doesnt mean you're wrong, but some groups consider it key. And it is priceless when a runner pulls a trigger and gets nothing because he skimped on smartlink and basic math skills.
Or pops a narcojet capsule/gel round into that lock because it completely skipped his mind to switch mags while he was balls to the wall running from that Firewatch team.

I'm reminded of the time our resident Sniper... you know, the one with the Gun Of Pure Win... was trying to take down some nameless bartender and used an APDS round instead of a Stick'n'Shock.
« Last Edit: <03-09-12/2349:47> by JustADude »
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
― Albert Einstein

"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
― Me