Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Mirikon on <03-02-12/2150:12>
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I have a question about some of the more... unusual totems. Specifically, totems that may or may not be insect totems.
Spider is one of the totems in the core book, but also seems to be an insect totem, judging by some of the old fiction. Is it both, and that insect part of it is just 'bound' somehow?
There are a group of natives in the Mojave causing trouble for the PCC (Anasazi, i think?) and some of them are said to be Scorpion shamans. Scorpion would seem to me to be a very traditional desert totem, much like snake or coyote would be. But it is also close to insect totems.
There are others, but I've been wondering about those specifically.
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Spider and Scorpion are not insect totems, per se. That is, they have never followed the rules associated with insect totems and insect spirits. The confusion with Spider comes mainly from the spirit that the PCs encounter in Total Eclipse (?), which AFAIK was proven to not be the Spider Totem Spirit.
That said, they are generally more alien than more ... human-friendly ... totems.
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Then if the spider-things in Find Your Own Truth weren't insect spirits, what the hell were they? Just wanna know, so I know what else to be afraid of.
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A heretofore unclassified type of spirit.
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Oh, drek.
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All praise Toaster!!!
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Are Elvis and Toaster friends or enemies?
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Keep in mind that Find Your own truth predates the Bug Spirits.
I suspect that at one time, they were going to be linked more closely, but that was eventually abandoned.
I'd also say that if you look at Mythology from various cultures... Spider is present in a lot of them as a totem of some kind. And he's sometimes VASTLY different. So it's possible there's more than one kind of Spider out there, and one of those may be more "Insect-like".
Bull
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Don't forget that spiders and scorpions are not, in fact, insects. They don't have the right number of legs, to start with :)
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Are Elvis and Toaster friends or enemies?
Peanut Butter and Banana Sandwiches. 'Nuff said.
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Are Elvis and Toaster friends or enemies?
Peanut Butter and Banana Sandwiches. 'Nuff said.
I've tried that on warm toast. No wonder the King died. He found Heaven!
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Omg yeah, especially with honey added to the mix.
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Don't forget that spiders and scorpions are not, in fact, insects. They don't have the right number of legs, to start with :)
Yes, but perception colors reality in Shadowrun's magic system, and a lot of people think they are.
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Don't forget that spiders and scorpions are not, in fact, insects. They don't have the right number of legs, to start with :)
Yes, but perception colors reality in Shadowrun's magic system, and a lot of people think they are.
Which is why it's hard to tell the difference between the regular and the toxic version of Spider and Scorpion.
FYI: My personal theory is that Twist unleashed Toxic Spider on the world, and only diminished her power to the point where it's at the same level as any other Toxic Totem (Rabid Dog, Devil Rat, etc.).
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My own personal theory is that Insect Spirits weren't Insect in the first place. But the first shamans who got in touch with those totems had a blurred mental image of a swarming infinity that their mind understood as insects of some sort.
That, or insect spirits really are the ghost of dead insects.
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Are Elvis and Toaster friends or enemies?
Peanut Butter and Banana Sandwiches. 'Nuff said.
That just sounds disgusting....
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Which means you are a heathen and heretic Guns. That drek is delicious
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Yup. PB&B makes for a fantastic sandwich. :)
Bull
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Insect spirits are different from toxics, FYI. I really, REALLY don't want to see a toxic insect spirit!
And apparently bug spirits were around in Earthdawn, as well, and up to the same tricks (which is why Tir Tairngir stepped on the Brotherhood, hard, to the point that they never really got started there, years before anyone else caught on to them).
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I've had the idea of Toxic Blood Magicians for awhile now... ;D
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Toxic toaster shaman?
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Toxic toaster shaman?
That's what happens when you drop Toaster in the Tub and the "Magic Smoke" comes out.
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Toxic toaster shaman?
That's what happens when you drop Toaster in the Tub and the "Magic Smoke" comes out.
Which 'Tub' is this?
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Toxic toaster shaman?
That's what happens when you drop Toaster in the Tub and the "Magic Smoke" comes out.
Which 'Tub' is this?
The tub of Genuine Imitation Ovalquik?
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I've had the idea of Toxic Blood Magicians for awhile now... ;D
Well, a Blood Mage is Twisted right from the get-go, according to the rough idea given in Street Magic. There's very little wriggle room to be selfless about it (mostly by cutting up on yourself instead of others, which begs the questions why you wouldn't take a magic tradition that includes a little bloodletting), and it tends to taint any user. Earthdawn bloodoaths aside, I'm trying to figure how you could twist something already twisted...
Would the Blood Mage become, like, UNTwisted? Two negatives make a positive?
Oh my...
Or are we talking about an otherwise Toxic Shaman who also knows Blood Magic? Because I can tell you from experience that it's a WINNER! ;D
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Well, there is apparently an advanced version of the Sacrifice metamagic that allows you to use blood magic without increasing the background count.
As for Twisted, there are different flavors of Twisted, Red. Blood magic is one form of Twisted. Toxic Magic is another. Shadow Spirits are another.
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You make an excellent point. So are we talking about crossing or stacking brands of evil? And if so... I wonder if about Blood Magic and Insect Shamans... Could you summon a Blood-version of an Insect spirit? I feel like I'm stacking 3.5 D&D templates, now...
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A Great Form Blood Wasp Spirit?
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Mirikon, this is why I like you. :)
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*bows* It may also be why other players in games I'm in hate me. I give the DMs evil ideas.
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A Great Form Blood Wasp Spirit?
I... I don't know what to say to this. I haven't read Street Magic anywhere near as thoroughly as I should have, but this scares the crap out of me as it is, and I'm a GM, I won't even be fighting the thing!
Although, I do have to wonder what would happen if I had that spirit become a perfect fleshform, with the original inhabitant being a toxic mage, while also retaining all memories.
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It would be at LEAST a little vampiric, given the Blood Form's need to Essence Drain. Man... remember 3e's mosquito flesh forms? Perfect for a Blood Form.
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Spiders are class arachnae, not insects; metaphysically, they'd be closer to Mantis (given their diet). So, a possible totem for PCs, although Spider is not a friendly totem, like Dog. Definitely worth a look if your capaign uses a lot of insect spirits; a Spider shaman working behind the scenes to send the runners at the hives...
Bat Shamans are another possibility for Blood Magic; a vampire Bat Shaman? And to confuse the issue, they're out hunting bugs too...
Although the idea is fun, I think that the ideas of a Toxic are incompatible with those of an Insect.
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Spiders are class arachnae, not insects; metaphysically, they'd be closer to Mantis (given their diet). So, a possible totem for PCs, although Spider is not a friendly totem, like Dog. Definitely worth a look if your capaign uses a lot of insect spirits; a Spider shaman working behind the scenes to send the runners at the hives...
Bat Shamans are another possibility for Blood Magic; a vampire Bat Shaman? And to confuse the issue, they're out hunting bugs too...
Although the idea is fun, I think that the ideas of a Toxic are incompatible with those of an Insect.
That was the thing about a PC Bat shaman I used to play with - the player came across as not understanding (it was good play, actually) the sheer terror and reluctance most other PCs expressed at the mere thought of bugs. She kept saying things like "Bugs - mmm, tasty!" when the subject came up. She had other hot-button issues too which made playing never dull.
Unfortunately the player disliked the system and setting of SR, and we lost our GM anyway.
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A PC bat-shaman vigilante...nananananana-batperson!!!!!!! 8)
But seriously, how about white blood-magic? Where the NPC shaman exercises a lesser form of 'Sacrifice' on a willing subject or themselves to up a spell's power? Well?
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Still blood magic. There's no two ways about that. Though certain people have found an advanced form of Sacrifice metamagic that doesn't raise the background count.
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But seriously, how about white blood-magic? Where the NPC shaman exercises a lesser form of 'Sacrifice' on a willing subject or themselves to up a spell's power? Well?
Like the Great Ghost Dance?
Oh, yeah, that didn't work out so well after all, did it?
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Again, if you go the Earthdawn route, Blood Magic doesn't HAVE to be evil, but then. they had entirely different paradigms and MUCH more experience with magic at a much higher mana level than SR deals with. It's actually interesting to note there are a few otherwise-noble characters out there who HAVE Blood Magic.
I'd be interested to see some more detail on Ordo Maximus Vampire and Cybermancer Blood Magic.
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Blood magic isn't inherently good or evil, Red. The problem with blood magic is that it raises the background count. And a high background count helps the Enemy return early.
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Blood magic isn't inherently good or evil, Red. The problem with blood magic is that it raises the background count. And a high background count helps the Enemy return early.
Dunkie died for our sins!
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I dunno... I have NEVER heard of a non-malicious blood spirit. They go free and it's a blood-sucking, essence-draining rampage. And Street Magic seems to indicate Blood Magic almost inevitably Twists it's user...
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I dunno... I have NEVER heard of a non-malicious blood spirit. They go free and it's a blood-sucking, essence-draining rampage. And Street Magic seems to indicate Blood Magic almost inevitably Twists it's user...
Ah, but you're not going to convince me most Great Dragons havent tried giving it a whirl, or a few other big players like the Immortal Elves.
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I dunno... I have NEVER heard of a non-malicious blood spirit. They go free and it's a blood-sucking, essence-draining rampage. And Street Magic seems to indicate Blood Magic almost inevitably Twists it's user...
Ah, but you're not going to convince me most Great Dragons havent tried giving it a whirl, or a few other big players like the Immortal Elves.
Some of 'em? They most certainly have. But remember, magic was different back in the Earthdawn days, when a splash of blood was par for the course for an awful lot of mojo.
Like Aina, in Worlds Without End, right there in the big action scene, when she bleeds herself to power an offensive spell...and it works. The spell's more powerful, the bad guy gets zapped. Good for her! But she does acknowledge the seduction of it, later. She does know that that powerful a display of magic, even fueled by herself, caused enough of a mana spike to bring the Horrors closer. She does know that what she did was wrong, even though it was necessary...which just reinforces, not contradicts, the idea that blood magic is the province of NPCs who are twisted or are flirting with it, not just another handful of metamagics that every PC should have access to. Don't forget, Dunkie himself -- Shadowrun's own Christ figure -- offered a cool million a head bounty on blood mages. That should tell you that the universe's moral authority sees 'em as pretty bad and dangerous.
I think the last thing Shadowrun needs are hordes of Drizzt clones, swarming masses of Blood Mage PCs who are "the one good Blood Mage," running all over the place angsting about their dark heritage and stuff. Blood magic's been listed in the "Magical Threats" type chapter of the magic books for multiple editions now, which pretty clearly marks it as "for the bad guys" territory. I know some people always have the urge to play the exception to every rule...but by and large, these rules are in place for a reason.
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The reason you've never seen a 'nice' Blood Spirit? Because blood spirits are summoned by killing a living creature, and the kind of person who's going to do such things is NOT a nice person, or going to do nice things with it.
But yes, even some of the 'good guys' know blood magic. The immortal elves all either personally have used it, or are good friends with people who have. Frosty knows how to use it. Several dragons likely know the secret, as well. But outside of the NPCs who have seen the Fourth World, or trained under those who have? They're all twisted.
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Blood magic isn't inherently good or evil, Red. The problem with blood magic is that it raises the background count. And a high background count helps the Enemy return early.
Dunkie died for our sins!
That is not dead which can eternal lie...
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I think the last thing Shadowrun needs are hordes of Drizzt clones, swarming masses of Blood Mage PCs who are "the one good Blood Mage," running all over the place angsting about their dark heritage and stuff. Blood magic's been listed in the "Magical Threats" type chapter of the magic books for multiple editions now, which pretty clearly marks it as "for the bad guys" territory. I know some people always have the urge to play the exception to every rule...but by and large, these rules are in place for a reason.
I've been looking at a lot of characters out there. I'm pretty sure that most players (especially the power gamers) are playing the 'bad guys'.
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I think the last thing Shadowrun needs are hordes of Drizzt clones, swarming masses of Blood Mage PCs who are "the one good Blood Mage," running all over the place angsting about their dark heritage and stuff. Blood magic's been listed in the "Magical Threats" type chapter of the magic books for multiple editions now, which pretty clearly marks it as "for the bad guys" territory. I know some people always have the urge to play the exception to every rule...but by and large, these rules are in place for a reason.
I've been looking at a lot of characters out there. I'm pretty sure that most players (especially the power gamers) are playing the 'bad guys'.
Yes, but they're still playing the protagonists. Blood magic, Insect spirits, Twisted paths? Not so much. That's firmly crossing the line -- which exists, even in Shadowrun -- into antagonist territory.
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Yes, but they're still playing the protagonists.
No. They really aren't. They are making the corporations look like saviors by comparison. I understand the game is supposed to be moral shades of gray, but I just keep seeing people throw characters with no redeeming features at all.
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Then maybe you need to play with different people. Because saying that "most players" are acting that way strikes me as a little off.
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I agree with Critias. Just because the people in your group play like that, doesn't mean that 'most players' play like that. I, for one, haven't played with anyone who acted like that. Though I was in a game with a player who had a character that thought he was a monkey.
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Oh, I don't play with those types. I'm just saying that I see an awful lot of characters that need to go into the villain column. I've walked out of many games with people trying those kinds of characters.
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I know that for me, it's a rarity for me to play a character that doesn't have any morals at all, though sometimes I still will.
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That's the beauty of a role-playing game: the freedom to play what you like. If you want to be a psychopathic serial killer, go for it.
That being said, it's important to note that SR DOES take pains to point out that, while runners are not "Good guys" usually, if ever, that Blood Magic, Twisted Paths, Toxic Paths, and Insect Totems cross into a degree of sick-mindedness that is reserved for NPCs or the most indulgent of GMs. And even if that WASN'T the case, each of these exacts a toll on the soul and psyche of it's user. Blood Magic stains you, metaphysically. Twisted Paths are addictive and hard to crawl out of. Toxic and Insect are violent and self-motivating: they are not motivated by freedom or profit, but zealotry. You loose your freedom to your cause, which inevitably involves the extermination of the human race, whether to save or kill the earth, or use them as hosts.
Always remember that that darkness has a price. That's all the rule truly says.
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Yes, but they're still playing the protagonists. Blood magic, Insect spirits, Twisted paths? Not so much. That's firmly crossing the line -- which exists, even in Shadowrun -- into antagonist territory.
Protagonist doesn't equal 'good guys' though.
Even if all the PCs are child-trafficking insect shamans, they are still the protagonists - with Ares Bug-hunting teams being antagonists in that case, most likely.