Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Weebomancer on <03-16-12/0429:10>
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So I understand that the typical SR game isn't supposed to have very potent PC's but when you have played like that for over a dozen years it's nice to have a change of pace. My group that meets at my house has displayed a lot of self control during character generation and during games they have shown considerable mastery of the rules. At least all the player important ones. As it stands last week they helped each other out quite a bit with certain rulings, and don't forget this helped me out as well. I was thinking of making my next game a little more high powered then normal and would like to ask opinions on this. The book says 450 BP for an extra boost but honestly I was thinking around 600. I want these people to start off as true blue veterans to the shadows. My current game is pretty standard and won't end for some time so this isn't a last minute cry for advice. Anyways here are some specs I came up with I want some opinions on this. Also the enemy in this game is going to be a dragon.
-600 BP - No more than 300 per catagory (Skills/Atts)
-BP for qualities goes to 50 BP upwards or downwards
-All rules on maximums at char gen are handled as normal (This I want to change but something tells me it's fine as is)
-I have no metatype or variant bans.
-Availability is raised to 18.
-House Rule: Everyone has each other as a free contact with loyalty determined by the players.
There are other house rules in there but I play every game with them since the group prefers them. No house rules are truly house rules, aside from the one mentioned above, they are all actually offered as options on Chummer (which gets them from books) so it's more like GM options. Anyways if you feel some need mentioning or altering bring them up please. But I would like to know how this stacks for a "Pro" runner team. Also if you think there is a better way to make a game feel high powered please let me know. I know sometimes people can miss little things that make a difference.
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IMO for this is better to use karmagen. It offers 750 Karma points for basic chargen. And then you decide how experienced characters you have...means how much Karma they had acomulated during they shadowrun activities, and add this ammount to the basic 750. You have really ballanced system for creation and developement, using one system, and results are damn good. And note that 100 karma is not even equivalent of additional 200 BP for chargen. And 100 karma is equivalent to cca 15 sucesfull runs IMO, so you may take even more, if you want to.
This will even simulate the character developement better than BP, because experienced characters have usualy more skills they found usefull along the way, then a few skills boosted up to mastery.
my +2cents here :)
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I have/had plans to run a high powers game myself, I would have handled it a bit different though.
To me, just handing out more BP's and high avail but following standard rules doesn't seem to fit. An important part of the whole "veteran" thing isn't higher stats and skills, but experience expressed in the form of knowledge and contacts. (A run in Paris/Moskou/Being/Rio huh? Yeah, I've passed through there a'couple'a times. Know some fine eating there and a guy in the suburbs who can get us what gear we need.)
Rules: start with standard rules 400BP characters and play at least one, or maybe two short runs. Just to get the "team" feeling. Maybe have it connected with the actual high powered game you'll run later, have some of the things decided/happening on this run have an impact on the later game (who'd they piss off, befriend, kill or let live).
Then, flash forward a couple of years. Explain what they've done and who they've worked for. Maybe some random rolls deciding who once saved whose butt or who messed up bit time that one time we almost ended up in jail.
Reward: x00 karma and x00.000Y, extra knowledge skill points equal to (highest stat+ logic/intuition) x 2, 3 or 4. Double/triple the amount of points the chars originally spent on contacts. (And of course, they can spend karma too).
The've had plenty of time to ignore the training time rules and met enough people (and had enough time) to get anything up to xx availability (can spend karma on Restricted Gear to increase it).
Possibly some extra (edge?) rolls to decide some new qualities, both good and bad ones. Maybe he became ambidextrous after all that practice, maybe he made an enemy or got a mysterious implant.
Anyhow, that's what I had in mind for my game. This way they'll have been "starters" and know what they came from. They can make up their own history starting from that point too: Why did that contact's loyalty increase? How'd you get rid of that Addiction? When'd you learn about fine wines?
Also, this way, who they were has a larger impact on who they've become. That street sam full of second hand cyberware will have to decide what to replace and what not to... Immediately starting as a "pro" means he'll never even have bought those "obsolete" pieces, but let's face it, noone just starts with betaware implants!
And instead of Mr. Mage running around with his pocket full of Force 6 foci, he'll have some lower-rating things that might still be useful and have a history.
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Hmm...leads me to another idea, inspirative as always, Xzylv :)
What about short series of 5-7 one-shot quick runs, each with new characters, to introduce important NPCs, locations and places of interrest.
Then Sumarizing karma characters gained during this preparation phase, begin the campaign and give this karma for use duriong character creation, possibly with accent of using at least some of them for contacts.
Then begin campaign with this characters, who will blend very nice into current situations thanx to their previous experuience from the background...
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Weebo, 600BP may be a bit of a stretch, especially for the Awakened/Emerged types.
I would instead do something like normal 400BP chargen, but then give them, say, 100-150 karma and an appropriate amount of bonus nuyen. The up side of this is that you don't have to go trying to house rule chargen on the fly, trying to find something that'll work. Just use the basic method for chargen, and then allow them to spend karma as they normally would through advancement.
The simplest solution is usually the best.
Oh, and if you run this game on the site, I am SO interested!
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I would instead do something like normal 400BP chargen, but then give them, say, 100-150 karma and an appropriate amount of bonus nuyen.
That "appropriate amount" would probably be 2,500¥ if you follow the guidelines set forth for buying Nuyen for gear in Karmagen. Comes out to 250,000¥-375,000¥, which sounds about right to me based on what I've seen from the "official" pay-rates in Missions.
The only way I can see it being abused is that they won't spend any BP on Nuyen unless they're really cash intensive. They'll just sink the starting cash into their "advanced" gear, without bothering with the intermediate steps.
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I would instead do something like normal 400BP chargen, but then give them, say, 100-150 karma and an appropriate amount of bonus nuyen.
That "appropriate amount" would probably be 2,500¥ if you follow the guidelines set forth for buying Nuyen for gear in Karmagen. Comes out to 250,000¥-375,000¥, which sounds about right to me based on what I've seen from the "official" pay-rates in Missions.
The only way I can see it being abused is that they won't spend any BP on Nuyen unless they're really cash intensive. They'll just sink the starting cash into their "advanced" gear, without bothering with the intermediate steps.
That is a slight risk, yes. But it can be managed with a bit more intensive DM screening during the chargen process. My advice? When they are going through grabbing qualities, gear, spells, powers, and so on, have them write down book/page numbers, nuyen cost, essence cost for ware, and availability. That'll make it easier on you to check things out when you're reviewing characters.
And, as always, remind them that anything too outlandish WILL (not may, will) be used against them in turn. So if someone wants to walk around with a Gauss rifle, that's fine, but let them know that the response they receive will be commensurate to the threat, and big explosions tend to raise your Public Awareness, and move you towards the top of people's "To Do" lists.
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Why give the PCs each other as Contacts? Contacts are NPCs - the PCs define their relationships to one another in play without needing game mechanics.
One house rule I always use that might help you is that I give them free stuff:
- I give them (Cha+Int)*3 BP to spend only on Contacts
- I give them the following Active Skills at Rating 2: Computer, Data Search, Dodge, Etiquette, Infiltration, Perception, and one of Blades, Clubs, Pistols, Thrown Weapons or Unarmed Combat. If they want to trade some of them in to buy the Skill Group they're part of, that's fine by me
As others have said, I would suggest starting at 400BP and adding Karma (this also helps with initiation, submergence, and Street Cred). Let them convert this Karma to cash at a rate of 1 Karma to 2,500 nuyen. Allow them to buy anything up to Availability 20 with this money.
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Reason I give karma + knowledge/contact points is because otherwise, lots of people will just pump up their stats and skills and not "waste" points on knowledge/contacts.
As a result you get high powered shadowrun veterans who in truth have only their skills to brag about, not experience or connections; just doesn't make sense. This is why I'd advice giving a few less karma but a few more free knowledge & contact points.
Not handing out a fixed amount of nuyen, but just handing out karma and allowing them to buy 2500 nuyen for 1 karma might be welcomed by some players too.
Magicians and TM's tend to burn through karma quickly while money-heavy builds (street sams, riggers) might appreciate the chance to get some high-grade 'ware or some state-of-the-art vehicle/drone.
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Depending on just how powerful you want the characters, you may want to really think about things. At 600 BPs, they can spend 300 BPs on attributes, but unless you tweak the rules they can only have one (physical or mental) at max.
If you mix the BP/Karma at character gen you wind up with the extremely easy exploit of:
-Using allotted BP to buy high attributes up very high, and leaving everything else at 1 in BP gen (to buy up with karma since its cheaper that way).
I personally recommend using the karma gen system (around 1100 karma for an equivalent feel i believe).
I also highly recommend opening up some of the standard character limitations (maybe allowing one skill at 6 and two at 5, or something similar and allowing more than one max attribute (two maybe three depending on if you include special attributes in there, more money acquired by BP/Karma). Otherwise I can foresee a certain amount of Jack of all trade syndrome developing as characters can't go further in the areas they actually want.
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Personally, I've never cared for the karmagen system. But that 'exploit' you mentioned, Crash, could be easily dealt with by screening your players appropriately, and checking character sheets as you go along.
Simply get players who understand that cheese like that will be grounds for removal from the game, and you don't have to worry about making a rule for every situation. Sometimes simply talking with your players is the best solution. You don't have to make rules to prohibit things if you simply have a friendly chat with the players to get them to agree not to do something.
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I personally just feel that creation is easier with one set of resources to deal with that has a set value. BP and Karma have different values and that's what creates the disparity. It's already seen in Character Creation (poor karma efficiency is the number one thing people point out in the character critique forums). While the cheese can be blatantly obvious (guy with 5 stats at 1 after BP creation that jump to 2s and 3s after karma), where does the cheese end? Does the trogger that left a 1 in charisma and logic and raised them both to two count as cheese? That's actually fairly common to see in normal BP creation and advancement in game.
The main issue I was trying to point out though is that going from a creation system with X points to creation system + X karma effectively removes all the restrictions already on character creation. With 150-200 karma you can raise pretty much any skill or attribute up (4-6s in skills costs 22 karma, That's six or seven skills you can max out going that route easily). If you're going to already have to screen things carefully, why not just set down restrictions and use one of the already decent systems?
I personally don't really get where all the Karmagen hate comes from. It seems solely based on the fact that you pay more for high DPs, but I think in the grand scheme of things, everyone can agree deep down that high DPs are worth more.
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I wouldn't say I hate it, per se. I just plain don't like it. What I hate is the Priority system from 3E, or random character systems like you see in Heroes Unlimited. Karmagen isn't that bad, but I simply don't like it.
As for the example you gave, again, you don't need to make rules for this. Just talk with your players. Communication is the simplest and best solution in this case. Talking not only eliminates confusion, but it becomes a lot easier to see if someone is just trying to game the system or not.
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I personally just feel that creation is easier with one set of resources to deal with that has a set value. BP and Karma have different values and that's what creates the disparity. It's already seen in Character Creation (poor karma efficiency is the number one thing people point out in the character critique forums). While the cheese can be blatantly obvious (guy with 5 stats at 1 after BP creation that jump to 2s and 3s after karma), where does the cheese end? Does the trogger that left a 1 in charisma and logic and raised them both to two count as cheese? That's actually fairly common to see in normal BP creation and advancement in game.
The main issue I was trying to point out though is that going from a creation system with X points to creation system + X karma effectively removes all the restrictions already on character creation. With 150-200 karma you can raise pretty much any skill or attribute up (4-6s in skills costs 22 karma, That's six or seven skills you can max out going that route easily). If you're going to already have to screen things carefully, why not just set down restrictions and use one of the already decent systems?
I personally don't really get where all the Karmagen hate comes from. It seems solely based on the fact that you pay more for high DPs, but I think in the grand scheme of things, everyone can agree deep down that high DPs are worth more.
Or people just aren't satisfied with what comes out with karma generation. All in all, where you said you 'personally don't get' it, can be flipped around on all of you who just throw it in people's face and try to talk everyone into going to karma generation for anything and everything. You and others like it, and others don't. You don't need to constantly throw it out into people's faces like it's the best thing in the world since sliced bread.
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What's your "normal" optimization level in your game? If you're on the low to mid optimization level, you could just use Umaro's archetypes for a more high powered feel.
If you want a high powered game with a sense of history, I would make the PCs as normal characters with your creation system of choice and be lenient on them. Then go though 3-6 runs where the PCs get the chance to talk to a bunch of people. Give those people out as free contacts. At the end of each run, give out lots of karma and nuyen* to represent "other adventures" they had off screen.
That way, you rapidly have some history and prior interactions If you just give them a bunch of contacts, the contacts will be just "Bob-Fixer" until they get life breathed into them during play. You can have these "starter" adventures tie into your overall plans, be independent, or whatever you want.
*- At the end of all of this, I suggest being around 100-150 karma and 300-400,000Y.
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Hmmm. I might just merge a few of these ideas and scrap my own. I'm liking playing the characters first for a bit and then "officially" starting the game actually...also this would let me have one on one sessions with said characters about their build ahead of time. So if someone does come out a little more powerful then others he will know before the real gaming begins and he won't plot gank through fairly high DP's in everything. Anyways the pieces I REALLY like are these.
Go on runs before the official campaign- *- At the end of all of this, I suggest being around 100-150 karma and 300-400,000Y. (Tsuzua)
I also highly recommend opening up some of the standard character limitations (maybe allowing one skill at 6 and two at 5, or something similar and allowing more than one max attribute (two maybe three depending on if you include special attributes in there, more money acquired by BP/Karma). Otherwise I can foresee a certain amount of Jack of all trade syndrome developing as characters can't go further in the areas they actually want. (Crash 00)
I give them (Cha+Int)*3 BP to spend only on Contacts (raggedhalo) This seems solid actually.
Sichr & Xzylvador Everything these two said makes some sense as well. And note that I AM testing this by making chars before running the game. The only reason I do this is because I earlier suggested they play some old characters for a high level game and they all didn't like the idea of "tainting" old characters with new adventures. Plus not everyone wanted to play something similar to an old character. For one player all he has done is play gunbunnies and the next character he is playing he wants to make a mage. Anyways the point being that if Karmagen comes out more balanced I will use it. But for now I like Xzylvador's idea of giving them the stuff straight up rather then giving them the stuff to buy it with.
Oh, and if you run this game on the site, I am SO interested! (Mirikon) Also this game is not on the forums it's a real game but I do intend to run it by my online group. We use maptools. Right now I could use a player who knows the rules by the book and not by interpretation in his own way (especially by using funny reading) so if your interested PM me. Also I'm a bit interested in this on site game thing since it's the first I've heard of it.
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Anyways the point being that if Karmagen comes out more balanced I will use it. But for now I like Xzylvador's idea of giving them the stuff straight up rather then giving them the stuff to buy it with.
Balance really depends on what you look for as "balance". If it's high dice pools cost considerably more than low dice pools, then Karma generation definitely comes out ahead in the balance area. However, many people look for balance in the sense that they think an average Troll strength (7) should be just as easy for the troll to attain as a human's average strength (3) is for the human to attain, in karmagen they aren't anywhere close (65 karma vs. 25 karma). Of course the later only holds up during character creation, because no matter which way you go, after creation a weakling troll will have to pay 65 karma to raise strength to a 7 and a weakling human will still only have to pay 25 karma to get to a 3. It is really noticeable in Trolls because their attributes are usually so high. (For quick reference, each BP attribute raise is worth roughly 20 karma (what it takes to raise a 3 to a 4). In karma gen, raising stats from 1-3 are cheaper than they would be in BP system and to four is the same. 5 is a 25% more, 6 is 50% more, 7 is 75% more, 8 is 100% more, 9 is 125% more and 10 is 150% more. Of course this adds up rather fast, so buying an attribute at 6 is four times the cost of a 3 (rather than 2.5 times the cost in BP). For a troll, buying an 9 body costs almost 3 times what a human getting a 3 would cost.)
Where Karmagen really shines is for characters that like to pick up side skills at low levels just to provide synergy for teamwork. A character that wants to pick up a couple points of demolitions in BP pays 4BP for each point (8 BP to get it at a 2, equivalent of 16 karma), but in karmagen it only costs 4 karma for the first point and 4 karma for the second point (literally half the cost). This is the biggest issue I guess, because in karma gen, a player knows that what he is paying for a skill/specialty/ability is what it will always cost him. There is no difference between creation and advancement costs. (Small List of things that change costs between BP and advancement: Attributes (especially high levels or hard caps), Foci Bonding, Skills, and Specialties)
Low level skills often fit into an area where most people building with BP say it's just not worth it, but having them helps flesh out a character and can add a very easy source of bonus dice (through teamwork rolls) to another character more devoted to the skill.
Starting characters with Karmagen (at the 750 level) generally aren't quite as powerful as BP characters. Most of the time, this is because they branch out more rather than worrying about karma efficiency (for instance, under the BP system I don't really see a point in buying skills unless they're at a 4 or higher because it's just not efficient and I never pick up specialties. The three point difference between having a 1 or 2 and defaulting is only one hit on average, and I'll just raise edge for those situations.)
If you do decide on Karma Gen, I recommend the German printed version that was updated for SR4A (the runner companion version uses the old SR4 costs). I also strongly recommend handing out knowledge skills like the BP system does rather than making players buy them (you tend to see far less frivolous knowledge skills if the players have to buy them).
You don't need to constantly throw it out into people's faces like it's the best thing in the world since sliced bread.
I didn't throw it in anyone's face. I merely recommended it for what he's doing. Likewise, I never said it's the best thing, merely that it's better than the BP system and leaps and bounds better than mixing the BP system with karma for creation purposes. You can like what you want, but I still haven't seen anyone show anything that can't be built in karmagen at all. You've got roughly the same amount of resources to work with in both systems.
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Almost nothing to add. IMO karmagen is excelent because when I create my runners, I like to have them more versatile, having some side skills to be able to survive on my own without the team or to be able to participate at teamwork tests. What I really dont see as necessary are high dicepools. Because high dicepools tend to increase difficulty GM has to offer, and final effect is something like tactical powerplay game. More skills, even with lower dicepools, tend to make people using more things than firing a riffle, and also it allows better roleplay (IMO) because it simply allows character to "exploit" more options in any situation, sometimes even such options, that would never come to their mind if they have to default on necessary skills.
And if anyone says that Karmagen is worse, or makes worse outcome, I want to see that proved on the same concept created with both systems. Without such proof it seems like simple trolling.
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Almost nothing to add. IMO karmagen is excelent because when I create my runners, I like to have them more versatile, having some side skills to be able to survive on my own without the team or to be able to participate at teamwork tests. What I really dont see as necessary are high dicepools. Because high dicepools tend to increase difficulty GM has to offer, and final effect is something like tactical powerplay game. More skills, even with lower dicepools, tend to make people using more things than firing a riffle, and also it allows better roleplay (IMO) because it simply allows character to "exploit" more options in any situation, sometimes even such options, that would never come to their mind if they have to default on necessary skills.
And if anyone says that Karmagen is worse, or makes worse outcome, I want to see that proved on the same concept created with both systems. Without such proof it seems like simple trolling.
Most of us who don't like it, don't like it because we aren't satisfied with what came out of it. It has nothing to do with dice pools because we expect them to be lower because of how the nature of it needlessly forces lower dice pools by punishing specialization. Some characters need specialization to come out right and some need generalization to come out right. Karma generation only really makes the latter feasible, while the standard (which I feel is the standard for a reason) makes both feasible. (Priority is nothing but a fraggin' joke.)
As to your 'proof' comment, the same could be said of those who spout these supposed figures of 'equivalency' between amounts of BP and amounts of karma. They look like numbers pulled out of butts to make karma generation look better to me.
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seems like Im about to find out how Ignore list works...
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Well, I think I've just pin pointed part of my hatred for karma generation. It has really been made worse by how people keep trying to say it's absolutely the best one in all situations. The point that I've seen people claiming that BP generation is only good for "min-max power game" also puts a bad taste in my mouth. All in all, it pretty much started out just from being unsatisfied with how characters turned out on the whole, but the constant harping and claims that it's better just made things worse. You gotta admit though, karma generation does punish people who want to build a specialist with the exponentially increasing costs for higher ratings (which higher ratings are what make a specialist what he is). I guess I just feel that a team of specialists is more fitting since if you can do everything, what do you need a team for?
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You gotta admit though, karma generation does punish people who want to build a specialist with the exponentially increasing costs for higher ratings (which higher ratings are what make a specialist what he is). I guess I just feel that a team of specialists is more fitting since if you can do everything, what do you need a team for?
No, that's one side of the fence that you can view it from, but the other side is that Karma Generation rewards you for not overspecializing at creation. The real thing that I'd like to see is exactly how these character envisionments are coming out worse in karma generation.
A single skill point is worth the equivalent of 8 karma (4BP x 2). Meaning that a four in karma generation (costs 22 karma) is still cheaper than a four in BP (4 x 8 = 32 karma). Hell, 32 karma is what a 5 costs in karma generation. You can only have one skill at six or two at five during creation, which means that you are always going to be saving points in the skills area if you take the exact same skill at the same ratings (A BP 5 is worth 40 karma, a BP 6 is worth 48 karma).
The only area where costs are significantly higher in karma generation is when it comes to attributes, and then really only high ones, but it doesn't restrict you from starting with a ten in a stat at all, it just rewards you for not trying to max out all your stats.
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A single skill point is worth the equivalent of 8 karma (4BP x 2). Meaning that a four in karma generation (costs 22 karma) is still cheaper than a four in BP (4 x 8 = 32 karma). Hell, 32 karma is what a 5 costs in karma generation. You can only have one skill at six or two at five during creation, which means that you are always going to be saving points in the skills area if you take the exact same skill at the same ratings (A BP 5 is worth 40 karma, a BP 6 is worth 48 karma).
The point is, you and others claim this as fact without anything showing where you got the equivalent. That is what lends to the thought that the figure is pulled out of nowhere to make karma generation look better.
No, that's one side of the fence that you can view it from, but the other side is that Karma Generation rewards you for not overspecializing at creation. The real thing that I'd like to see is exactly how these character envisionments are coming out worse in karma generation.
Did I say worse in my last post on this point? No. I said I was unsatisfied.
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The point is, you and others claim this as fact without anything showing where you got the equivalent. That is what lends to the thought that the figure is pulled out of nowhere to make karma generation look better.
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???
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The point is, you and others claim this as fact without anything showing where you got the equivalent. That is what lends to the thought that the figure is pulled out of nowhere to make karma generation look better.
Have you read the books? 2 karma per build point is the conversion that is used for buying damn near anything that is BP statted. It's also the guideline used for creation in Karma Generation.
I guess if you want to just ignore the information that's fine, but it doesn't mean it isn't there...right in front of you...in the book.
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The point is, you and others claim this as fact without anything showing where you got the equivalent. That is what lends to the thought that the figure is pulled out of nowhere to make karma generation look better.
Have you read the books? 2 karma per build point is the conversion that is used for buying damn near anything that is BP statted. It's also the guideline used for creation in Karma Generation.
I guess if you want to just ignore the information that's fine, but it doesn't mean it isn't there...right in front of you...in the book.
Well, since you didn't give a page number, I guess I'll just have to take your word for it and drop that part right there. Oh well. Either way, it doesn't change that BP generation lets you generalize or specialize as you wish without really punishing either one, whereas the other actively punishes specializing (not just over-specializing like you intimated).
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Either way, it doesn't change that BP generation lets you generalize or specialize as you wish without really punishing either one, whereas the other actively punishes specializing (not just over-specializing like you intimated).
BP punishes generalizing by making low levels cost the same as high levels. Low levels are not as effective as high levels and should not cost the same amount. Therefore it's not efficient to generalize in the BP system. This is what causes people to talk about karma efficiency.
Well, since you didn't give a page number, I guess I'll just have to take your word for it and drop that part right there. Oh well.
I apologize for assuming the table of contents for Karma Creation would be easy to look up. See build point conversion on pg. 42 of Runner's Companion.
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The point is, you and others claim this as fact without anything showing where you got the equivalent. That is what lends to the thought that the figure is pulled out of nowhere to make karma generation look better.
Have you read the books? 2 karma per build point is the conversion that is used for buying damn near anything that is BP statted. It's also the guideline used for creation in Karma Generation.
I guess if you want to just ignore the information that's fine, but it doesn't mean it isn't there...right in front of you...in the book.
Well, since you didn't give a page number, I guess I'll just have to take your word for it and drop that part right there. Oh well. Either way, it doesn't change that BP generation lets you generalize or specialize as you wish without really punishing either one, whereas the other actively punishes specializing (not just over-specializing like you intimated).
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Either way, it doesn't change that BP generation lets you generalize or specialize as you wish without really punishing either one, whereas the other actively punishes specializing (not just over-specializing like you intimated).
BP punishes generalizing by making low levels cost the same as high levels. Low levels are not as effective as high levels and should not cost the same amount. Therefore it's not efficient to generalize in the BP system. This is what causes people to talk about karma efficiency.
Efficiency and using a conversion thrown in like that isn't the same thing as it punishing generalization. Quite honestly, seeing these talks about 'efficiency' do little more than make me roll my eyes. After all, would those talking about 'karma efficiency' be talking about 'xp efficiency' in a White Wolf game? (It's really the same thing)
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So the Build Point system's defense is effectively "Other games has design flaws too." Good to know. I can't speak on White Wolf as I have avoided that game like the plague (only ever cared for hunter but the difficulty increasing botch chances was ridiculous in the edition I played). If it's anything like BP where build costs are completely unrelated to advancement costs (and double or more in many cases) then it's probably the same thing yes.
That's the biggest issue though. It's not that there is a difference in costs, but that there is a major difference in cost (a one or two literally costs twice as much in the BP system for skills, though a 2 in an attribute costs twice as much also, as do specializations). After all, people don't complain about buying 4s and 6s as much (4 skill is 16 BP or 32 karma compared to 22 karma to raise it up, 6 is 24 BP or 48 karma compared to 44 to raise it up), but the lower numbers are the main issues.
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You know All4, if creating specialist means that your character has to have Agility 12 you can feel punished a bit.
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I find Karma generation is not punishing for Specialists, but doesn't punish generalists like BP does. You can make your Agility 12 gunslinger with Karma, especially when you look at the 400-750 conversion. I have never run out of generation points in karma where I wouldn't have in BP.
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FOR GOD'S SAKE QUIT TRYING TO CONVERT EACHOTHER! YOU PEOPLE ARE WORSE THAN EVANGELICALS AND ATHEISTS! NEITHER ONE OF YOU IS GOING TO SEE EYE TO EYE ON THIS, SO JUST FRAKKING DROP IT!
*ahem*
Now, you can throw around all the numbers you like, but the simple fact is that I wouldn't play in a karmagen game if you paid me. Why? Because I don't like the system. Do I need to defend that? No. Do you need to try and force me to see the supposed wonders of the system? Also no. So just drop this crap, and let's get back to Weebomancer's original topic, finding a good way to do a high powered game. OK?
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You guys do faith healing?
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400 BP or 750 Karma to start, then add 400 karma which can be converted to nuyen at the 1:2500.
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You know All4, if creating specialist means that your character has to have Agility 12 you can feel punished a bit.
I only have the one character with the Agility that high. It started more as an experiment to see if I could do it, but as I was building it, I found that I liked what was coming out, so I'm playing it. Probably won't make another one.
Back to the topic at hand, adding an extra 400 karma on top of the 400 BP might be a bit much. 250 karma might be a bit better (unless what is wanted is a runner like the canon Bull or Fastjack or even the Cap).
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I added 400 karma because I didn't throw in any money. Money would come out of the 400, so unless you are happy with the capped stuff you got during chargen you'd have to swap karma for money to get what you want.
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I added 400 karma because I didn't throw in any money. Money would come out of the 400, so unless you are happy with the capped stuff you got during chargen you'd have to swap karma for money to get what you want.
I'd rather give money straight out personally. Five million would be plenty for a batch of extremely successful runners in the game for years, and it would allow not only the mundanes to have all the goodies they could want, but the mages and adepts could be living the high life that they should be considering how rare magic users supposedly are. Just a personal style thing though, especially since with 400 karma like that, the mages and adepts are going to be so far ahead of the mundanes at that point that it isn't even funny.
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My (now sadly aborted) game started with a flat 400BP, of which you could spend ZERO on Nuyen, as well as a bonus of a flat 250,000¥ lump sum, essentially making them 450BP characters that have been forced to max out on their gear.
I also relaxed Availability (perhaps a bit too much in hindsight) so they wouldn't be stuck with "starter" gear. For this game I'd suggest a "basic" availability of 20, up to 28 w/ Restricted Gear.
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My (now sadly aborted) game started with a flat 400BP, of which you could spend ZERO on Nuyen, as well as a bonus of a flat 250,000¥ lump sum, essentially making them 450BP characters that have been forced to max out on their gear.
I also relaxed Availability (perhaps a bit too much in hindsight) so they wouldn't be stuck with "starter" gear. For this game I'd suggest a "basic" availability of 20, up to 28 w/ Restricted Gear.
While cool and a bit more powerful, I don't think that's quite into "Prime Runner" zone yet.
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The idea with higher availability is not bad for this campaign, well IMO rather that allow characters to buy almost anything during character creation, Id give them Restricted gera quality for free for every 50 Karma points they are awarded as a "High power bonus"...means if you hand them 150 karma points, they will also have 3 pieces of top rated gear...
BTW: All4Big suggest giving them some resources as a sum. While 5 milion I see as really a lot of money for single runner, I think that giving this to whole team is much better idea, with allowance of karma/nuyen conversion, this allow them to work out with team equipement.
Also Id stress Team again for players while they upgrade their characters, because efficiency of the team also depends on how good they cooperate and how are they able to support each other in their roles...and teamwork is essential and teamwork would be the reason they survive that long and become HighPowered characters. Just herding team of high power individuals won`t win the price, in such case only with potent leadership...
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The idea with higher availability is not bad for this campaign, well IMO rather that allow characters to buy almost anything during character creation, Id give them Restricted gera quality for free for every 50 Karma points they are awarded as a "High power bonus"...means if you hand them 150 karma points, they will also have 3 pieces of top rated gear...
BTW: All4Big suggest giving them some resources as a sum. While 5 milion I see as really a lot of money for single runner, I think that giving this to whole team is much better idea, with allowance of karma/nuyen conversion, this allow them to work out with team equipement.
Also Id stress Team again for players while they upgrade their characters, because efficiency of the team also depends on how good they cooperate and how are they able to support each other in their roles...and teamwork is essential and teamwork would be the reason they survive that long and become HighPowered characters. Just herding team of high power individuals won`t win the price, in such case only with potent leadership...
Best to give in the millions so that they can actually have the good delta stuff for a change, and giving it to the team as a whole defeats that point, as they'd no longer be able to afford that. Team stuff can be worked out after the characters are built, equipped and finalized. The other way seems too close to railroading to me. Not quite there, but getting dangerously close.
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Under the same token, if the assumption is that theyve run together for years, surely theyd have picked out complimentary gear and ware. If theyre new to each other, by all means letbthem.be surprised by one another.
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Just because they got separate cash load-outs doesn't mean they'll "be surprised by one another".
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Granted, but if the second scenario is true they should be
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Another reason to keep the cash separate; with it all lumped together, the stronger personality/more charming schmoozer players could end up talking/bullying the ones who aren't as savvy out of their share.
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Yes. You perfectly picked up the very essence of teamwork :-[
EDIT: IRL such character would be called manager or a team leader...
And srry but I cannot help myself, but if you see team as random assembly of individuals who always have their own agenda first, team second, Id be a bit afraid to be at the same table as you are...
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My (now sadly aborted) game started with a flat 400BP, of which you could spend ZERO on Nuyen, as well as a bonus of a flat 250,000¥ lump sum, essentially making them 450BP characters that have been forced to max out on their gear.
I also relaxed Availability (perhaps a bit too much in hindsight) so they wouldn't be stuck with "starter" gear. For this game I'd suggest a "basic" availability of 20, up to 28 w/ Restricted Gear.
Out of curiosity, how did that go down with the magic users? I imagine there were a lot of foci/augmented adepts... I'd have thought that the only thing a pure adept could really do there is start a hedge fund. But interested to see what did happen.
My advice for the prospective GM is to talk over the options with your players. See whether they prefer straight BP, straight KG, or a mix. All of them have their plus and down points and its really down to what suits the group and what the players (and you) are most comfortable with. But I definitley support raising contacts/knowledge skills and such things to ensure that people have the depth of knowledge you'd expect a veteran SR to have.
Damn, I want to play/run this now...
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My (now sadly aborted) game started with a flat 400BP, of which you could spend ZERO on Nuyen, as well as a bonus of a flat 250,000¥ lump sum, essentially making them 450BP characters that have been forced to max out on their gear.
I also relaxed Availability (perhaps a bit too much in hindsight) so they wouldn't be stuck with "starter" gear. For this game I'd suggest a "basic" availability of 20, up to 28 w/ Restricted Gear.
Out of curiosity, how did that go down with the magic users? I imagine there were a lot of foci/augmented adepts... I'd have thought that the only thing a pure adept could really do there is start a hedge fund. But interested to see what did happen.
The Mage dumped most of her Nuyen into a freakin' huge Power focus and the Adept in a huge Weapon Focus... and everyone was wearing tricked-out Milspec armor. Didn't make it past the "cakewalk" shakedown runs before we ended up on a nearly two-month hiatus due to one thing after another, so I have no clue how it would've played out long-term.
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Wow this topic got huge pretty quickly. On another note some of the specs I am using for my first test game.
-Giving players what I think a "pro" runner would have instead of giving them BP/Karma to buy it.
This actually is favorable since it means the players don't spend it on skills or attributes. I can give them a safehouse in multiple cities with basic gear in case the chocolate hits the fan or even contacts I feel they might need. The best part is that it won't feel like GM fiat when what they need happens to show up because it's already on their sheets from the start :)
-485 BP build. 50 forced into Nuyen and 35 forced into positive qualities that do not count against the standard upwards downwards limit. For both Nuyen and Qualities. This means a runner can start with up to 500k if they wish. Or possibly get a ton of positive qualities for few to no negative ones. I use BP because I tried out Karma character creation and I don't like it for this game in particular. I tend to have around 6 players. It's clearly made for smaller groups where more coverage is needed. Also I looked into giving karma and thought of giving out free perks instead. Perhaps this will have a more interesting effect on the game in terms of making the runners feel more powerful. Power is not always directly measured by karma after all small bonuses or perks can do the trick too.
-Availability is 18.
It seems the best area to keep it at as you can get HMG's and medium military armor to start at 18 Availability. Plus it allows for a bunch of other useful things that I generally see on experienced parties. 18 seems to be around a "sweet spot" The whole spot being 16-20. It's stuff you would see on experienced runners (depending on experience) and yet not allowing some fully massive gear. At least not on start. Again it's the spot you would hit depending on how experienced you want them to be. I think it fits well for my vision. Though I might pump it up pending on some things. But a rating 4 foci seems good. I mean you don't find those laying around everywhere XD.
Still thinking of the other stuff at this time but I definitely would like to test this setting out. Now I just need to find test players to try it out.
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and what about skills? You mentioned only gear and money, if I get it right...and maybe a few qualities (which is interresting idea, well I can see that it can be difficult for players to find that many possitive qualities without breaking core concept...well that is just a feeling)
Skillz...you know...that thing that makes difference between the noob and the professional...
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Since you are tending towards filling out the character rather then making them better specialists (an interesting, and in my opinion good, move considering how powerful a basic character can be already) why not add a certain base set of skills? Any experienced runner will know how to use Pistols, set a bomb, run at least basic Matrix gear, field strip a weapon, throw a punch, etc. Why not provide a small set of rating 2 skills to reflect things picked up?
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I should have noted that in the first part. When I said giving them what I think "pro" runners have I meant EVERYTHING. Not just stuff and people. I just didn't use skills as an example. So instead of extra BP for buying more skills I will just give them skills. But seeing as how I'm still trying to decide on what and how I decided not to use it. For now though I think 2 is a good rating for all those. I would say athletic skills and stealth should be at 2 since those are used almost infinitely in any run. As to weapons I agree on pistols but then the next question comes along. Longarms and Automatics? Some people in real life in modern times can use shotguns and rifles, and just as many do automatics instead. Should I give 1 or 2 to those? Also other skills I think should be dependent on character background. Maybe one guy was in the army? I would say he has most weapons skills at 2 then. You can see where I don't want to blanket statement skills. Saying every runner picks up heavy weapons is a little iffy...demolitions maybe but heavy machine guns and rocket launchers?
That is why I would like to state it's coverage in the first part. But again I don't want to break character concept with that.
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I should have noted that in the first part. When I said giving them what I think "pro" runners have I meant EVERYTHING. Not just stuff and people. I just didn't use skills as an example. So instead of extra BP for buying more skills I will just give them skills. But seeing as how I'm still trying to decide on what and how I decided not to use it. For now though I think 2 is a good rating for all those. I would say athletic skills and stealth should be at 2 since those are used almost infinitely in any run. As to weapons I agree on pistols but then the next question comes along. Longarms and Automatics? Some people in real life in modern times can use shotguns and rifles, and just as many do automatics instead. Should I give 1 or 2 to those? Also other skills I think should be dependent on character background. Maybe one guy was in the army? I would say he has most weapons skills at 2 then. You can see where I don't want to blanket statement skills. Saying every runner picks up heavy weapons is a little iffy...demolitions maybe but heavy machine guns and rocket launchers?
That is why I would like to state it's coverage in the first part. But again I don't want to break character concept with that.
I'd say let them build for their specialties and then give them rating 2 or 3 in the skills you think are appropriate that they didn't get (social, technical and vehicle skills on the street sam types, combat skills on the hacker/rigger/mage types, etc.)
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I like the 485 BP idea, with 35 forced into extra qualities and 50 into extra nuyen. If I could make one suggestion, though, I'd add the following things:
* Allowing them to join a magical group for 2 BP.
* Allow them to buy levels of Initiation/Submersion for 1 BP=2 Karma (round up).
I'm saying this because for the Awakened/Emerged types, A good portion of their advancement is in the form of Initiation/Submersion, not in spending nuyen like with mundanes.
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Actually I was wondering on what I should do for that. Certainly allowing initiation and submersion was going to be there but I had no idea on how to handle it. That's a good idea 1 BP = 2 Karma. So far my list is the following.
- 485 BP with 35 spent on qualities and 50 on nuyen. These do not affect the cap.
- Access to metamagic and submersion for the cost of 1 BP to 2 Karma.
- Anything I think they should have will be added such as skills, safehouses, and backup gear stashes.
- Runners will play 3 missions before the actual game starts to gain "extra" contacts.
- Starting availability is 18.
House Rule Set: No amount of power will save you from stupidity! This is also for anyone interested in playing this game if I get enough interest I might try to run it on the forums here. Also Special Snowflake Syndrome and Power Gaming is fun and I won't kick players for trying it. Here is why.
1. I allow ridiculous characters. Nothing gets me excited like planning the arrest of a nine foot tall lizard that glows in the dark. Be smart people, stealth isn't always about a high dice pool. 20+ dice won't stop you from standing out.
2. I allow broken characters. Nothing is more fun then to ignore that massive dice pool to resist magic by targeting your environs instead of you. Sorry did the concrete go soft and then hard again? Too bad.
3. Want to here a funny joke? A troll walks into a hallway with four Knight Errant cops using high velocity SMG's with APDS EX Explosive rounds....
4. Yes Knight Errant can do that because Damien Knight is a legend and until you are too I think he can do whatever the hell he wants to do.
ACTUAL House/Optional rules come up next. If it's not mentioned it's by the books standard rules.
- No armor encumbrance when wearing one piece of armor.
- Allow skills to be regrouped if all ratings are the same.
- High strength affects weapon recoil.
- Use maximum armor modifications.
- Use armor suit capacity.
- Free contact points : Charisma x 2
- Skill defaulting includes modifiers
- Essence loss only reduces MAG/RES maximum.
- Characters can spend up to 70 BP on positive qualities (this is because of the type of game)
- Character can spend up to 100 BP on Nuyen (this is another game type rule)
If anyone uses this rule set let me know how it turns out. And thanks to everyone who added options to this thread for high powered gameplay.
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I like it. Definitely going to be higher power than normal, but it'll be fun to play. You run this on the site, I definitely want in.
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Actually I was wondering on what I should do for that. Certainly allowing initiation and submersion was going to be there but I had no idea on how to handle it. That's a good idea 1 BP = 2 Karma. So far my list is the following.
- 485 BP with 35 spent on qualities and 50 on nuyen. These do not affect the cap.
- Access to metamagic and submersion for the cost of 1 BP to 2 Karma.
- Anything I think they should have will be added such as skills, safehouses, and backup gear stashes.
- Runners will play 3 missions before the actual game starts to gain "extra" contacts.
- Starting availability is 18.
House Rule Set: No amount of power will save you from stupidity! This is also for anyone interested in playing this game if I get enough interest I might try to run it on the forums here. Also Special Snowflake Syndrome and Power Gaming is fun and I won't kick players for trying it. Here is why.
1. I allow ridiculous characters. Nothing gets me excited like planning the arrest of a nine foot tall lizard that glows in the dark. Be smart people, stealth isn't always about a high dice pool. 20+ dice won't stop you from standing out.
2. I allow broken characters. Nothing is more fun then to ignore that massive dice pool to resist magic by targeting your environs instead of you. Sorry did the concrete go soft and then hard again? Too bad.
3. Want to here a funny joke? A troll walks into a hallway with four Knight Errant cops using high velocity SMG's with APDS EX Explosive rounds....
4. Yes Knight Errant can do that because Damien Knight is a legend and until you are too I think he can do whatever the hell he wants to do.
ACTUAL House/Optional rules come up next. If it's not mentioned it's by the books standard rules.
- No armor encumbrance when wearing one piece of armor.
- Allow skills to be regrouped if all ratings are the same.
- High strength affects weapon recoil.
- Use maximum armor modifications.
- Use armor suit capacity.
- Free contact points : Charisma x 2
- Skill defaulting includes modifiers
- Essence loss only reduces MAG/RES maximum.
- Characters can spend up to 70 BP on positive qualities (this is because of the type of game)
- Character can spend up to 100 BP on Nuyen (this is another game type rule)
If anyone uses this rule set let me know how it turns out. And thanks to everyone who added options to this thread for high powered gameplay.
Looks good and fun as hell. Any way to convince you to do this in Play-by-Post?
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House Rule Set: No amount of power will save you from stupidity! This is also for anyone interested in playing this game if I get enough interest I might try to run it on the forums here.
announcing enough interest! Never tried that kind of game.
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House Rule Set: No amount of power will save you from stupidity! This is also for anyone interested in playing this game if I get enough interest I might try to run it on the forums here.
announcing enough interest! Never tried that kind of game.
*raises hand about fifty times and then pulls out the trick for winning elections and gets dead people to express interest*
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Do want. Lower posting rate then i'd like because of a new job in the service industry, but I can pull 1 a day.
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Dude. Seriously. You will get the punters. My gods you will get the punters.
If you ran this, I'd be in. So so in.
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"Pick me, pick me!"
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Wasn't this supposed to be the GM Lounge instead of the Lonely Players' Waiting Room?
That said: *interested* ;)
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Wasn't this supposed to be the GM Lounge instead of the Lonely Players' Waiting Room?
That said: *interested* ;)
The average GM is a lonely player. Well, not a lonely player, as he's got lots of friends to run for, but you see what I'm getting at...
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Wasn't this supposed to be the GM Lounge instead of the Lonely Players' Waiting Room?
That said: *interested* ;)
The average GM is a lonely player. Well, not a lonely player, as he's got lots of friends to run for, but you see what I'm getting at...
The average GM is desperate to get a chance to play
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Wasn't this supposed to be the GM Lounge instead of the Lonely Players' Waiting Room?
That said: *interested* ;)
The average GM is a lonely player. Well, not a lonely player, as he's got lots of friends to run for, but you see what I'm getting at...
The average GM is desperate to get a chance to play
Amen.
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Definately be interested in playing as well though you may have too many people already interested! XD
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Was just thinking about this the other day. I was thinking of shading the SR world with The Losers, Taken, The A Team, etc. where the runners are mid level, journeymen operators. They have good reps, no profound screw-ups and generally well known in the community as competent and professional. My thoughts for character creation was to simply let the characters make the character they want. No BP or karmagen, just make you're guy or gal with the skills, equipment and ware your history says you would have.
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Was just thinking about this the other day. I was thinking of shading the SR world with The Losers, Taken, The A Team, etc. where the runners are mid level, journeymen operators. They have good reps, no profound screw-ups and generally well known in the community as competent and professional. My thoughts for character creation was to simply let the characters make the character they want. No BP or karmagen, just make you're guy or gal with the skills, equipment and ware your history says you would have.
With the right group this can be an amazing experience.
I have had groups do this and ended up with a cast more like a movie or a TV show than my usual gamers. One player even chose to play a 14 year old girl who got caught up in the main story but started as relatively unskilled.
Alexis
*smiles*
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http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6863.0
Boom to anyone paying attention to this thread so they don't miss it. The recruitment thread for the High Powered Game.
Again thank you to everyone who had input and reminded me of things I might have forgotten.