Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: jonathanc on <04-04-12/1301:42>

Title: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-04-12/1301:42>
Growing up with old Marvel comics, I have a special place in my heart for "What If?" scenarios, so I was wondering: What if Dunkelzahn never died?

Now, I know that his death was related somehow to trying to stop the Horrors through something called the Dragonheart, but let's examine a few alternate scenarios:


1. Dunkelzahn returns in the mid to late 2070's, restored by some weird Artifact or other that the Draco Foundation located. What would he do? How would the other GD's react?

2. Dunkelzahn's death was faked, and he has been behind the Draco Foundation all along. What has he been doing all this time?

3. Dunkelzahn's death never happened. He either survived the explosion, or the explosion never happened. What would an active, public Dunkelzahn with the might of the UCAS behind him have done? How might the 2070's look differeng if this occurred?
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-04-12/1359:31>
I can tell you one thing. Dunkelzhan in the White House means the New Revolution would NOT have made a play for DeeCee during the Crash.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-04-12/1406:02>

1. Dunkelzahn returns in the mid to late 2070's, restored by some weird Artifact or other that the Draco Foundation located. What would he do? How would the other GD's react?

This may have already been covered.  But you know those dragon bones that D mentioned in his will?  Those may have been the body of Ghostwalker.  D may have been planning to use them for his own return but GW got there first.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-04-12/1415:20>

1. Dunkelzahn returns in the mid to late 2070's, restored by some weird Artifact or other that the Draco Foundation located. What would he do? How would the other GD's react?

This may have already been covered.  But you know those dragon bones that D mentioned in his will?  Those may have been the body of Ghostwalker.  D may have been planning to use them for his own return but GW got there first.

If all that is required is to have dragon bones, they Dunk could return using his own bones (he donated his body to his own magical research foundation). A tiny part of me is hoping that some of the payoff for all of this Artifact stuff is D showing up through some kind of Macguffin. It'd be especially juicy if he popped up in time to be factor in the Hestaby/Lofwyr kerfuffle.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-04-12/1606:17>
I can tell you one thing. Dunkelzhan in the White House means the New Revolution would NOT have made a play for DeeCee during the Crash.
Oh, you can't stop extremists.  Just means they'd have been eaten and the Oval Office would need to have been rebuilt.

The thing I'd want to know about is how well President Dunkie and Ghostwalker would have gotten along.  UCAS supporting actions against Aztlan???
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Nath on <04-04-12/1734:41>
Dunkelzahn death near the Watergate left no body. He edited his Will to bequest the Dragonheart to Ryan Mercury, showing he considered it could end this way, but he nonetheless left the article bequesting his body to the Dunkelzahn Institute.

1. Dunkelzahn returns in the mid to late 2070's, restored by some weird Artifact or other that the Draco Foundation located. What would he do? How would the other GD's react?
It would probably depends a lot on how the other dragons would consider the magic used. If "tainted" in any way, Dunkelzahn would be an outcast, and would thus likely keep a low profile rather than face an alliance against him. Either way, Dunkelzahn may not be the first dragon to pull such a trick: Dunkelzahn may be the most powerful dragon of the modern era, he is not the only to ever have lived and died.

Ghostwalker sets at least one sort of precedent we know of. Even if it's not clear if he was considered as practically dead or simply "on vacation", none of the other dragons denied him his status, and they even acepted is demand of a replay for Dunkelzahn Rite of Succession.

2. Dunkelzahn's death was faked, and he has been behind the Draco Foundation all along. What has he been doing all this time?
You give the answer to your own question here: he did lead the Draco Foundation all along. Except maybe for some behind-the-scene magic stuff, the Draco Foundation wouldn have had everything Dunkelzahn wanted done.

In this scenario, it's quite likely Nadja Daviar simply hide with her master between 2064 and 2073.
 
3. Dunkelzahn's death never happened. He either survived the explosion, or the explosion never happened. What would an active, public Dunkelzahn with the might of the UCAS behind him have done? How might the 2070's look differeng if this occurred?
Kyle Haeffner retained an unprecedentely high popularity at the end of his second term, and there is no limit to the number of term a president may serve in the UCAS. Had Dunkelzahn enjoyed similar levels of popularity, there would probably have been a growing fear among political opponents of a dragon ruling UCAS for millenias to come. I can see him possibly serving a third term (as there are human precedents for that), but too many people would feel uncomfortable with a dragon becoming the first president of the union to serve four terms.

On the corporate scene, there would have been no war between Ares and Cross, at least as long as Dunkelzahn forbid Damien Knight to move against Lucien Cross. I think Fuchi break-up was unavoidable. Villiers, Nakatomi and Yamana already were at each others' throat prior to Dunkelzahn's death, and Renraku already had Brightlight works underway to encroach on Fuchi market shares.

Without the Watergate Rift, Ghostwalker and shedim may have been unable to return. If Ghostwalker nonetheless returned through another mana anomaly (Crater Lake?), there could be a heated argument between the two brothers. Afterall, Dunkelzahn let Aztechnology controls a part of Denver area, a place Ghostwalker vowed to protect.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-05-12/1211:42>
Dunkelzahn death near the Watergate left no body. He edited his Will to bequest the Dragonheart to Ryan Mercury, showing he considered it could end this way, but he nonetheless left the article bequesting his body to the Dunkelzahn Institute.
Maybe it's possible to discover his body? I remember hearing some kind of theory that he was alive and somewhere in the Metaplanes, fighting the Horrors.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-05-12/1239:34>
His physical body was vaporized in the explosion.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-05-12/1306:43>
His physical body was vaporized in the explosion.
Which means we all know he isn't dead.  No body, he's still alive, just waiting to come back.  ;D
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-05-12/1311:14>
Any explosion sufficient to atomizing a fully-grown Great Dragon, bones and all, should have caused WAAAAY more collateral damage.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-05-12/1316:07>
In Artifacts Unbound, Harlequin says that Dunkelzhan used a nuke to kill himself (and likely kept the blast contained by means of a powerful ward).
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-05-12/1332:06>
In Artifacts Unbound, Harlequin says that Dunkelzhan used a nuke to kill himself (and likely kept the blast contained by means of a powerful ward).
Why would he bother getting elected President if he was going to kill himself on his inauguration night? Seems weird.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-05-12/1340:47>
That wasn't part of the plan, be he felt that he had to call a last second audible.


In fact, there are only three living people that know the truth: Harlequin, Ryan Mercury, and Nadja Daviar. Quite a few others have their suspicions, of course.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-05-12/1357:36>
The simple explaination, Jonathan, is that Names and Titles have power. And that power can be channeled into certain acts, allowing someone to do things normally above their level.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Nath on <04-05-12/1507:52>
Any explosion sufficient to atomizing a fully-grown Great Dragon, bones and all, should have caused WAAAAY more collateral damage.
If I remember, the description made in the Stranger Souls novel suggests the explosion range was somehow limited by a magical effect of some sort, leaving Nadja Daviar, Carla Brooks and the other persons standing in fron of the Watergate shocked by unharmed.

Why would he bother getting elected President if he was going to kill himself on his inauguration night? Seems weird.
The Dragonheart was an emergency contingency plan if the Aztlan blood mages were to find an artifact called the Locus and started a ritual with it. It's not clear when Dunkelzahn learnt about the locus, the blood mages effort to find it, their goal, and when he created the Dragonheart. All we know from Stranger Souls is that he learnt (from Ryan Mercury) that they had found the locus just minutes before his death.

It's possible Dunkelzahn didn't know about the Locus threat when he announced he would run for presidency in March 2057. Even when the posibilityt he had to died appeared, he may have considering withdrawing from the election during the campaign would be the worst solution. Kyle Haeffner may not have been able to win the election on his own after such a blow, and Kenneth Brackhaven would have won.
A while ago, Michael Mulvihill, then SR lead designer, also suggested Dunkelzahn grew too confident in his ability and network of operatives to delay and block Oscuro operations.

Finally, there's also the aforementioned theory, based on Earthdawn era magic, that titles convey power. Thus, inauguration as President of the United Canadian and American States would have allowed Dunkelzahn to tap into a large amount of mana.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-05-12/2043:39>
Long story short, Aztech is a bunch of dicks, and their continued existence is why we can't have nice things.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-05-12/2237:41>
Long story short, Aztech is a bunch of dicks, and their continued existence is why we can't have nice things.
Horizon might have things to say about that as they're now king of the PR Pile...

AZT's ability to spin their horrific acts into positive situations is now numbered.  And as John & Jane Q. Wageslave wakes up to what they're really like (And what Shadowrunners have known for a long time now), they're going to find that they probably should have stayed with being a Drug Cartel Money Laundering Operation.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-05-12/2253:07>
You do realize that AZT provided crops to I think the AMC and without that there would have been massive starvation.  Additionally, AZT is by far the biggest producer of optical chips.  They have done good.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-06-12/0630:40>
No, they didn't do good. They used the fact that they had food and other people didn't to leverage a massive amount of control over a country. And optical chips? Making money for the corporation isn't 'doing good'. That's 'being a corporation'.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-06-12/0726:14>
Alright, how about "They fill an important niche."  Without AZT, all your computer stuff would be much more expensive.  You probably wouldn't have those fancy commlinks either.  People in the north would have starved.  Your opinion that making money while doing good is... well, I'll stop there because it would become a massive political socioeconomic rant.

Corporations are not "Teh Evulz".  They do stuff for the bottom line because they have to answer to their stock holders.  Since stock holders just get a short notice, all they really care about is the bottom line.  If shareholders could somehow share in the sunshine and lollipops, then corporations would be more interested in being nice nice. 
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: shrike on <04-06-12/0736:06>
Alright, how about "They fill an important niche."  Without AZT, all your computer stuff would be much more expensive.  You probably wouldn't have those fancy commlinks either.  People in the north would have starved.  Your opinion that making money while doing good is... well, I'll stop there because it would become a massive political socioeconomic rant.

Corporations are not "Teh Evulz".  They do stuff for the bottom line because they have to answer to their stock holders.  Since stock holders just get a short notice, all they really care about is the bottom line.  If shareholders could somehow share in the sunshine and lollipops, then corporations would be more interested in being nice nice.

We must not be reading the same books.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-06-12/0820:39>
Corporations are not "Teh Evulz".  They do stuff for the bottom line because they have to answer to their stock holders.  Since stock holders just get a short notice, all they really care about is the bottom line.  If shareholders could somehow share in the sunshine and lollipops, then corporations would be more interested in being nice nice.
All right.  Who are the stockholders of AZT?

...

That's right, that information is redacted, along with parts of the Constitution of Aztlan.  For the security of the people, of course.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-06-12/1117:07>
Aztechnology is perhaps the most diversified megacorporation, with Shiawase being close.  Pull AZT out of the picture and guess what happens to product selection?  It dries up and one corporation gets a monopoly on that product.  Then they crank up the price to extreme levels because they can.  Most of the propaganda I'm hearing against Aztechnology is being fed to you sheeple by AZT's rival corporations. 

I'll give you a what if.... What if Aztechnology (and Aztlan) is run by a bunch of Feathered Serpent dracoforms and all this hatred getting heaped on them is coming from other dracoforms that think these upstarts don't deserve their own territory... or want to take over that territory themselves?  And all of this Aztechnology is Teh Evulz is all part of a draconic game.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-06-12/1235:14>
No, Joe. Just no. AZT has its well deserved reputation for evil for a reason. Cabals of blood mages, and using living people as sacrifices? Evil. Being so quick to doublecross people that the word becomes synonymous with AZT? Evil. Making Sangre del Diablo trees? Evil. And those are just the evils the running world knows about.

AZT is evil to the core, and it isn't a bunch of feathered serpents running it, but a Horror-touched great dragon.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-06-12/1252:29>
There seems to be some confusion here. Allow me to explain: just because you've made yourself an important part of the food chain doesn't mean that you aren't evil.

Aztechnology survives because it is extremely powerful, has fingers in a lot of pies, and destroying it would hurt a lot of its enemies. This is why, even though they pissed off just about everybody, other corps have only acted to weaken, not destroy them.

Evil has nothing to do with utility. Sauron was evil, but hey, he had utility. Those other rings he forged did some awesome stuff for the people he gave them to, and he was Middle Earth's biggest job creator. The fact that destroying Sauron left Middle Earth with millions of unemployed orcs is irrelevant; the problems caused by him being gone were less awful than the problems caused by him existing. And even if they weren't, he would still be classified as "evil", just as Aztechnology is.

Back on topic, I really do wonder how Dunkelzahn's prescence might have changed the Ghostwalker/Denver situation. Would he have defended Denver from GW? Would he have joined up to fight those spirits? Would they have had some brews like brothers who haven't seen each other in a while tend to?
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <04-06-12/1304:00>
Long story short, Aztech is a bunch of dicks, and their continued existence is why we can't have nice things.
LOL!!! Oh, +1 to you! I might have to sig this one of these days!!
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-06-12/1315:19>
No, Joe. Just no. AZT has its well deserved reputation for evil for a reason. Cabals of blood mages, and using living people as sacrifices?
Sacrifice magic is not evil.  An entire religion was built around that.  And those people volunteered to sacrifice themselves.  Corporations kill people every day, thousands of people through improper safety measures in cars, toxic chemicals in foods, etc.  At least the Azzies are using deaths for something rather than just throwing it away.


Quote
Being so quick to doublecross people that the word becomes synonymous with AZT? Evil.
That sounds like sour grapes.  If they really double crossed people that much, nobody would deal with them.  And yet we keep hearing about more people being double crossed.  Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Quote
Making Sangre del Diablo trees? Evil. And those are just the evils the running world knows about.

AZT is evil to the core, and it isn't a bunch of feathered serpents running it, but a Horror-touched great dragon.
Pfft!  You act like dragons weren't spawned from the Horrors in the first place.  That's like saying that great dragon has a sweet tooth.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-06-12/1323:32>
All right, I'm not sure whether you're trolling at this point, or whether you really haven't read any of the sourcebooks.

Blood magic is evil. It brings the Horrors closer. Even willing sacrifices. And most of the people sacrificed in Aztlan are NOT willing. And don't even try to spin stabbing a person in the chest and using their life to summon a blood spirit to attack your enemies as 'making their death mean something'.

Actually, they do doublecross people that much. People do still work for them, for two reasons. 1) AZT doesn't always tell people it is an AZT run. 2) They offer cash money. But yes, they do frequent doublecrosses. To the point where they are legendary. Says as much in Corporate enclaves.

Dragons do not come from Horrors. Dragons are simply the eldest of the name-giver races.

I'm going to stop responding to this line of conversation now. Read the Aztlan sourcebook, as well as the AZT section of Corporate Guide, and the Street Magic info on Blood Magic.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-06-12/1328:36>
Long story short, Aztech is a bunch of dicks, and their continued existence is why we can't have nice things.
LOL!!! Oh, +1 to you! I might have to sig this one of these days!!

Thanks, I have my moments.

@CitizenJoe

Blood magic is one of the big bads in Shadowrun because of how the Azzies use it. In Earthdawn it was an accepted practice. However, sacrificing someone and enslaving them as a blood spirit just doesn't really jive with what most would call a good thing.

Deliberately planting man eating trees where civilians are expected to run into them isn't that great a thing to do either.

Also the only reason they are after the Ghost Cartels are because the cartels are cutting into their own drug profits.

Lastly, they are responsible for Big D's death and the reason the Horrors almost made it over this early in the mana cycle.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-06-12/1342:46>
It is a little trolling.  But more Devil's Advocate.  I fully agree that AZT is the bad guys, but not that they are inherently evil. 

I see no hard evidence that blood magic is bringing the Horrors any sooner.  If I'm going to bitch about AZT it will be about the ridiculous amount of quantifiable pollution they are doing rather than the 1 in a hundred thousand people that use sacrifice magic.  Of course, they might be the misunderstood good guys and their pollution strategy is a tactic to make manaspace so polluted that the Horrors can't survive in it.

The Horrors coming is an inevitable thing, the only question is whether or not we'll be ready.  If we hold them back like a dam, when they do arrive the whole valley is gone.  If we let them through a little at a time, it is manageable and everyone can prepare for the onslaught.  Adversity is the crucible in which we forge our destinies.

There is a theory mentioned in Earthdawn (that got squashed pretty early) that the first dragons were spawned from a horror.  My theory is that dragons are something of a merger of the horror essence and the gaiasphere that suborned the horror's energies to form something of an antibody against the Scourges.

Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-06-12/1348:54>
I see no hard evidence that blood magic is bringing the Horrors any sooner.
Aside from that being the whole plot of The Dragonheart Saga and why Dunkelzahn offed himself to empower the Dragonheart.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-06-12/1406:57>
I see no hard evidence that blood magic is bringing the Horrors any sooner.  If I'm going to bitch about AZT it will be about the ridiculous amount of quantifiable pollution they are doing rather than the 1 in a hundred thousand people that use sacrifice magic.  Of course, they might be the misunderstood good guys and their pollution strategy is a tactic to make manaspace so polluted that the Horrors can't survive in it.
1) Read Harlequin's Back, House of the Sun, Worlds Without End, and the Dragonheart Trilogy. Then we'll talk.
2) The Blood Elves tried something like that, too. The medicine was worse than the disease.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-06-12/1422:28>
Hearsay.  That isn't proof.  That is one dragon's opinion. 

But here's the thing.  It is coming.  Some people are just delaying it.  But what are they doing to prepare for it?  How are they preparing the World?  They say we're not ready, and we probably aren't.  But unless we get concrete proof of this 'Enemy' we're not going to anything but write it off as tabloid bunk.  You want to prepare the world for a threat?  Create the threat to show them.  You want to hold back the Scourge until the big Horrors show up, or do you want to inoculate people with the lesser horrors first?

AZT pollution can be seen as a way to make the world unpalatable in the Astral plane.  BTL addiction can make people less palatable to the emotion eating horrors.  Drugs that let you see the astral will allow people to see the threats.  Evil trees that eat people teaches the world that things are not always as safe as they seem and you must always keep your guard up.  Double crosses train the elite soldiers that will face the horrors how to account for the corruption of the horrors.  Research into sacrifice magic is the same empowerment needed to defend against the Horrors.  All of that prepares the World for the inevitable coming of the Enemy.

Everything you guys are saying, and everything in print, on the face of it, makes Aztechnology seem like the bad guy.  That is exactly the sort of hype that makes the big Heel/Face Turn so awesome when it does happen. 

1) Read Harlequin's Back, House of the Sun, Worlds Without End, and the Dragonheart Trilogy. Then we'll talk.
2) The Blood Elves tried something like that, too. The medicine was worse than the disease.
But the Blood Elves survived didn't they?  And why did they have to go through the Ritual?  Because they refused the perfectly suitable Rites of Passage the Therans offered.  Those books were written from the perspective or bias of renegades.  Thera was founded on the notion of surviving the Scourge.  Yes, they charged a lot for their Rites, but the people that paid did survive. 
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-06-12/1427:26>
Joe, this is getting pretty tangential to the topic of this thread; if you really want to White Knight for Aztechnology, this might not be the ideal place.

Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-06-12/1501:19>
Despite how twisted he is, I listen when Harley talks.

Especially when he's been in his cups!

EDIT:  Trying to White Knight any of the Megas isn't going to go along well here.  We play 'Runners after all!  ;D
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-06-12/1516:56>
Well then, what if Dunkelzahn was actually behind Aztechnology this whole time so that he could play the adversary and also the savior.  Lead everyone up to the edge so that they can see the danger, then pull them away so they think you're helping.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-06-12/1526:39>
Well then, what if Dunkelzahn was actually behind Aztechnology this whole time so that he could play the adversary and also the savior.  Lead everyone up to the edge so that they can see the danger, then pull them away so they think you're helping.
Got any evidence?
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-06-12/1550:02>
How about the ritual D used at the Watergate was blood magic and the only people studying that intensively are the Azzies?  Dunkelzahn first came into the 6th World out of Cherry Creek Lake in Denver... in what became the Aztlan Sector... and yet he didn't kick them out?  Dunkelzahn would have known full well that a nuke wouldn't take out bugs, and yet he let Knight set it off in Chicago when he had a significant pull in the board room.  The Draco foundation bounty on Blood Mages is for LIVING blood mages only, i.e. they might not be killing them.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-06-12/1611:59>
How about the ritual D used at the Watergate was blood magic and the only people studying that intensively are the Azzies?
This is not true. They're the most obvious about it, but they're hardly alone.

Quote
Dunkelzahn first came into the 6th World out of Cherry Creek Lake in Denver... in what became the Aztlan Sector... and yet he didn't kick them out?
He was never much for overt shows of force.

Quote
Dunkelzahn would have known full well that a nuke wouldn't take out bugs, and yet he let Knight set it off in Chicago when he had a significant pull in the board room.
How would he have known that? It's not like he had done extensive tests of Ares nuclear weapons.

Quote
The Draco foundation bounty on Blood Mages is for LIVING blood mages only, i.e. they might not be killing them.
You can't put a bounty on dead blood mages, because people would just start killing random dudes and saying "hey, I caught this guy doing blood magic".
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Nath on <04-06-12/1627:01>
Well then, what if Dunkelzahn was actually behind Aztechnology this whole time so that he could play the adversary and also the savior.  Lead everyone up to the edge so that they can see the danger, then pull them away so they think you're helping.
Got any evidence?

Dunkelzahn openly admitted owning shares and having a seat on Aztechnology board : "To Oliver McClure of Québec City, I leave my voting stock in Aztechnology and the board seat to which that entitles you."
Since Dunkelzahn expects McClure to be able to exercice those rights, it suggests he was able to do so as well. Aztechnology is not likely to release board meeting archives anytime soon (moreover undoctored archives...) so how Dunkelzahn voted on board decisions shall remain a mystery. But his seat would have nonetheless allowed him to know about Aztechnology operations.

Once a corporation wrongdoings get public, it's a pretty timely line of defense for board member to claim they didn't know anything and were kept in darkness on purpose by the rest of the board.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-06-12/1640:16>
You got those two quotes attributed backwards.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-06-12/1646:10>
Anyway, this section of the board is for crazy conspiracy theories and such.  So as they go, you can't get much more tin foil hat than that.

Bad guys that do good sometimes and good guys that turn out to be the villain the whole time are part and parcel to the genre.  It makes for an interesting story and can be quite a roller coaster.  If you cast Aztechnology as the Devil and Dunkelzahn as the Second Coming (and there is a game religion based on that) I think you're doing yourself a disservice by making the game too simplistic.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-06-12/1716:18>
Giving someone bread in return for making them your slave doesn't count as doing good. AZT is evil. Maybe not absolute evil (that honor is reserved for Shedim, Bugs, and Horrors), but evil nonetheless. They certainly aren't the only evil in the world (MCT is right up there with them), but don't for a minute think that they are good. The villain who does good and the good guy who turns out to be the villain sound like nice storytelling aspects, because they are cliches pulled straight from the pages of manga and other stories. Sometimes, however, people are just plain evil. That's not simplistic. That's simply how it is.

An evil person can save the kid from the kidnappers just like the good person can. The difference is why. Does it still count as a good act if you only acted to gain an advantage over the kid's father, or to wreck the plans of a rival who was behind the kidnapping out of petty spite?
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-06-12/1719:39>
More like pulled straight from the pages of real life.  Very few people think of themselves as doing evil or wrong, they think the ends justify the means.  It's the ends that matter.

A good example of someone that does think he's a monster, and is done RIGHT is The Operative from Serenity.  He knows he's a monster, and has no place in a world he would like to create, but is willing to do whatever is required to make that world for everyone else.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-06-12/1749:18>
If we're speaking of "realistic" evil, then neither cliche is accurate. Most people who do evil things to not do them for the sake of wallowing in evilness, nor do they think that they are good people.

For most people, they really don't think about it at all. It's just their job, they're just following orders, or they're just doing what is expected of them, or what is "normal". They pass any responsibility for their actions to the next person down the line, because being responsible for your actions is hard.


Let's take an environmental disaster. The worker who was driving the truck full of chemicals that spilled will say he's a scapegoat, he was over-worked and it isn't his fault. His manager will claim that he's doing the best he can with the budget he has, so of course he has to overwork his drivers. That guy's manager will say that the orders came from above. The CEO will say that he's just cutting costs to please the stockholders, and of course the stockholders have no direct input on the decision that cut the safety funding; they just want their stock to increase in value, and who can blame them for that?

Realistic evil is banal, and generally pretty worthless for heroic storytelling. Sometimes it's okay to just have a matinee villain, when it's well done. Aztechnology is a matinee villain, and Dunk...well, the fact that the closest thing the Sixth World had to a benevolent, Gandalf-esque wise man was a manipulative dragon whose master plan continues to unfold long after his death is how you know we're playing in a dystopia.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-06-12/1828:30>
Very often, evil is determined by which end of the sword you're looking at. 

Anyway, I vote we stop discussing 'Evil' because alignment debates will rage on for countless pages with absolutely no payoff.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-06-12/1932:12>
Very often, evil is determined by which end of the sword you're looking at. 

Anyway, I vote we stop discussing 'Evil' because alignment debates will rage on for countless pages with absolutely no payoff.
I've always disliked extreme moral relativism. If we can't agree on some kind of definition of evil, then the word has no meaning. This is ridiculous enough when applied to reality, but in the context of a fictional gaming world, it is completely unnecessary.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-06-12/2143:26>
OK, how about this?

Cutting people's chests open to feed bloodthirsty "gods" in order to increase share value is evil, m'kay?  ;D
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-06-12/2324:50>
I will also add that they are the ones who unleashed Skip on the world.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Nath on <04-07-12/0404:48>
Cutting people's chests open to feed bloodthirsty "gods" in order to increase share value is evil, m'kay?  ;D
I must disagree with this extremely relativist point of view.

Aztechnology being a private corporation, its share are not publicly traded and thus have zero Market Value. Even if you were to account for an increase of share Fair Value, it would include subjective factors.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-07-12/1251:50>
Cutting people's chests open to feed bloodthirsty "gods" in order to increase share value is evil, m'kay?  ;D
I must disagree with this extremely relativist point of view.

Aztechnology being a private corporation, its share are not publicly traded and thus have zero Market Value. Even if you were to account for an increase of share Fair Value, it would include subjective factors.
Then they're cutting people open for dreks and giggles?
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-07-12/1323:46>
Surgeons cut people open all the time.

Street Samurai cut people open all the time.

Soldiers cut people open (with bullets) all the time.

All of that is ok, but magicians aren't allowed to do that.  Now the thing is, all those other things are called evil depending on the society in question.  So if you consider the Aztlan blood magic evil, it is because your society says so, not because it is inherently evil.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-07-12/1334:41>
The people you mentioned, don't cut people open for power or to enslave their spirits. There's a huge difference. I'm not going to touch how you think surgeons are evil.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: shrike on <04-07-12/1342:26>
Surgeons cut people open all the time.

Cutting to heal is one thing, killing them on purpose is quite another.

Street Samurai cut people open all the time. Soldiers cut people open (with bullets) all the time.

So ... frequency makes killing ok?

All of that is ok, but magicians aren't allowed to do that.  Now the thing is, all those other things are called evil depending on the society in question.  So if you consider the Aztlan blood magic evil, it is because your society says so, not because it is inherently evil.

So no member of any society can consider any other alternative than what their society says is acceptable? I have to disagree here. History shows us whether that statement was true or not.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-07-12/1352:09>
There are extreme orthodox religions that do not allow surgery.  It lets your soul out or something.  My point is that there is a culture that considers that evil.  There is a culture that considers soldiers evil.  There is a culture that thinks cutting people down on the streets evil.  So when you put your threshold of evil at blood magic, I'm just saying that it is your personal belief and not something absolute.  Just keep in mind that the historical society that Aztechnology is based off did do sacrifices and it was expected and desired.  People fought for the honor of being sacrificed.

Just because your society deems something evil, that doesn't mean it actually is.  However, you are a part of that society and you should feel perfectly justified operating off of those beliefs.  What I do not agree with is flatly stating that they are evil as if that was a concrete fact.  And then applying that blanketly across the entire population.  And then blaming them for any of your problems.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: shrike on <04-07-12/1400:55>
Epistemology really isn't my thing. I get what you're saying though.

Edit: apparently I can't spell.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-07-12/1409:54>
The big thing is they are not just sacrificing willing people. PoWs, slaves,  and random people that have been kidnapped are the majority of the sacrifices.

Also you aren't answering the whole "enslavment of another persons spirit" thing.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-07-12/1427:01>
Also you aren't answering the whole "enslavment of another persons spirit" thing.
Never heard of wage slavery?

Let me make this easy for you.  I will refute any magic basis for applying evil to Aztechnology.  Magicians account for less than 1 person in 100,000 people.  I can easily write off any magic as experimental or rogue events.  If you're going to get any traction, you need an argument based off of the mundane aspects of the corporation.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-07-12/1441:43>
Sacrifice and magic are big aspects of the corporation. If that doesn't do anything for you how about planting man eating trees in a major civilian population center, committing large scale genocide, and hindering humanitarian aid to a country so they can get leverage to rape said countries natural resources? Oh and slavery, slavery.

Evil is based on perception, I think we all agree on that. However, there are actions that are pretty universally considered evil.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: shrike on <04-07-12/1445:13>
History is replete with situations where that one person out of 100,000 is the catalyst if not the root cause of some of humanities darkest moments. Why not in this instance also? Aztechnology in the business arena is no different in most regards than any other major corporation.

Edit : Apologies to the OP for continuing the derailment. I'll stop now.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-07-12/1456:27>
Evil is based on perception, I think we all agree on that. However, there are actions that are pretty universally considered evil.
No, we can't.  If you want my agreement, you have to stop using the term 'Evil' as it applies to a corporation.  You can use callous disregard for the sanctity of human life.  You can use unethical business practices.  You can use environmentally irresponsible.  But you're not allowed to use 'evil'.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <04-07-12/1945:24>
... okay, so you are trolling.

Since you're being snotty about this, and being morally relativistic, let's turn it around: Define evil.  Once YOU define what evil is, then we can point it out to you.

Note that we're NOT saying that certain practices of other corporations in the Shadowrun world aren't evil, or that certain activities aren't evil; we're saying that Aztechnology and Aztlan, having made such practices both corporate and national policy (as well as eliminating many of what are considered in the world today as basic human rights, such as the right to free speech, the right to peaceful assembly, the right of religious freedom, etc. etc.), is defined by the majority of individuals in the 6th World as being evil.  (Not to mention the majority of players of the game.)

Oh, they don't present themselves as being evil, especially not to their own people.  Those who are seen by society to be evil see themselves as doing what is necessary, doing what is good for their country (or religion), doing what God has told them to do, etc. etc. etc.  And to be honest, even evil people can achieve good ends.  Aztechnology makes serious profits, Hitler made the trains run like clockwork, etc.  This does not diminish the evil done.


So, Joe, O Troll -- define evil for us.  Or stop trolling.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: FastJack on <04-07-12/2017:20>
Okay, time to stop this before it starts. I'm watching now.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-07-12/2102:14>
Evil is acting against a moral code.  There are lines of thought that say that people can't be evil, just actions.  There are also philosophies that state that some evil is good and in fact necessary.  But going back to the definition there, notice how vague and potentially all encompassing it is... acting against A moral code.  Since there are countless moral codes, many mutually exclusive, calling something evil is much akin to the pot calling the kettle black.  And that is pretty much my point.  If you don't like what Aztechnology is doing, that is fine, and it may very well be against your moral code, and thus YOU consider their acts to be evil, but that doesn't make every one of them evil, and it doesn't make the corporation evil, it just means that you disagree with what they've done and you (presumably) have other people of a like mind that agree with you.  If you choose to act against Aztechnology, then do so for your own reasons and not some high horse moral authority, because when it comes right down to numbers, there are more Aztlaners believing in their actions than there are of whatever your group is that thinks they are evil.

Perfectly valid reasons to haite/strike against Aztlan/Aztechnology that have nothing to do with them being evil.
1.  You're a Texan.
2.  You're a Southern Californian
3.  You're from the Yucatan
4.  You're a Carribean drug runner
5.  You're Amazonian
6.  You belong to a competing megacorp
7.  You can't pronounce most of their cities and it pisses you off
8.  It is Tuesday
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-07-12/2142:00>
Perfectly valid reasons to haite/strike against Aztlan/Aztechnology that have nothing to do with them being evil.
1.  You're a Texan.
2.  You're a Southern Californian
3.  You're from the Yucatan
4.  You're a Carribean drug runner
5.  You're Amazonian
6.  You belong to a competing megacorp
7.  You can't pronounce most of their cities and it pisses you off
8.  It is Tuesday
9.  You're a Shadowrunner with more morals than Kane or Clockwork.  ;D  (And, honestly, even I think Kane feeds them "Poison Pills" for his money.).
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Parker on <04-07-12/2154:18>
Now, now. And I thought the "Don't Feed the Troll" sign was prettyyyyyy obvious.... ::)
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Black on <04-07-12/2157:48>
Perfectly valid reasons to haite/strike against Aztlan/Aztechnology that have nothing to do with them being evil.
8.  It is Tuesday
9.  You're a Shadowrunner with more morals than Kane or Clockwork.  ;D  (And, honestly, even I think Kane feeds them "Poison Pills" for his money.).

Actually, I would suspect that Clockwork would be uncomfortable with their more bloody aspects.  Just becomes his bias against technomancers doesn't mean that his blind to blood sacrifice.  Its a matter of perception I guess...

On a side note, 'evil' really is a subjective statement and not quantifiable.  There are certainly things in real life which are 99% universially consider, today, to be evil... but not many as perhaps people would like.  However, on a plus side, fiction is different .  Fiction has bad guys, fiction has evil, and for the most part, Aztechnology has always been portrayed in the fiction as evil.

If, however, in your own game you want to play the twist of 'there just misunderstood', then have fun with that.

Best idea for this thread, imho, is the seperate 'real' from fiction, or else this conversation may go nowhere... nice.

Also.... really not what the original thread was about... but nothing unusually there I guess :)
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-07-12/2208:41>
I'm not trolling, I'm playing Devil's Advocate.  Because something is 'evil' is insufficient justification for action in a Dystopian setting like Shadowrun, to which I put the fact that it is Tuesday on par with that rationalization. 

Note that Tuesday comes from Old English Tiwaz day or Tyr day, who was a god of justice and war.  Meanwhile in Spanish speaking Aztlan, Martes (Tuesday) comes from the Roman Mars, also a god of war.  Thus, Tuesday is an eminently appropriate day to act against Aztechnology or any of your enemies.

Have a better reason to dislike Aztechnology, or have a completely irrational reason.  Shadowrun is a world of grey and greyer morality, black and white have no business here.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-07-12/2229:46>
Clockwork might not like the bloody parts of AZT, but he really, really likes big credsticks.

As for "Gray and Gray Morality", more like "Black and Bloody Morality".  There isn't even a hint of white in my games.  Humor, yes.  Good, honor, duty?

...

Those are all tools used by forces more powerful than the people that have them.

Closest we got to those three virtuous things was Dunkie and Harley.  One of them's gone, and the other one is either drunk, griefing newbs on MMOs, or both...
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <04-08-12/0100:07>
Let me make this easy for you.  I will refute any magic basis for applying evil to Aztechnology.  Magicians account for less than 1 person in 100,000 people.  I can easily write off any magic as experimental or rogue events.  If you're going to get any traction, you need an argument based off of the mundane aspects of the corporation.

Sorry; this is trolling.  You are claiming to be playing 'devil's advocate', but you are categorically claiming the right to refuse valid points; this is trolling.

The percent of magically active is, I believe, greater than your above estimate; by your count, and presuming world population is about 7 billion, there are less than 70,000 magically active people in the 6th World -- less than 60 in pop: 6 million Seattle alone.  I think your SITD estimate is radically off.  Early fan discussions put the number of magically active at being 1 per 100 people, while 1:1000 (or 1 in 10 of those who are active) are capable of controlling/expressing it, while the other nine either go nuts, think they're just moderately better at what they do ('closet adepts'), or can't handle it psychologically and go insane.

This isn't really the issue on this particular point, though; the issue is that ritual sacrifice and use of all aspects of blood magic is a public part (acknowledgement AND practice) of Aztechnology and Aztlan.  Any attempts to claim otherwise ('research' or 'rogue') are utter hogwash.

However, I'd prefer to get back to your non-definition of evil:
Evil is acting against a moral code.  There are lines of thought that say that people can't be evil, just actions.  There are also philosophies that state that some evil is good and in fact necessary.  But going back to the definition there, notice how vague and potentially all encompassing it is... acting against A moral code.  Since there are countless moral codes, many mutually exclusive, calling something evil is much akin to the pot calling the kettle black.  And that is pretty much my point.
(Emphasis mine.)

First, 'lines of thought' ... 'philosophies' ... 'vague and potentially all-encompassing' ... 'countless codes, mutually exclusive'.  So what you're actually saying is that you refuse to define evil, as it is relative.  Very well, let's boil down old European codes, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism -- essentially the vast majority of moral codes -- to their very core:

Inflict no harm unto others for personal gain.

All your lines of thought, philosophies, and exclusivity boil down to this one line; the Wiccan Rede says it elegantly as 'An It Harm None, Do As Thou Wilt'.  Western Christianity generally names it the Golden Rule: 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'  Many people try to legalize their own moral codes into their governments and societies, but this takes morality and makes of it ethics -- law, and honor, &c.  These are not morality, though for a society to survive, all of them should be facing that way.  The primary corollary is that to witness someone harming another in order to get gain and allow it to happen is itself an evil act -- passive evil, not active, but evil nonetheless; to approve of evil is evil.

Using this central tenet of virtually every known religion and society (murder being just about the one thing that is illegal throughout the world), we must now review the actions of Aztechnology and Aztlan for egregious violations of this tenet.

They intentionally produce and sell products they know do harm to the consumer of the product (BTLs, drugs) in order to get gain (money, sometimes influence).
They intentionally perform actions intending to establish a zone which will cause harm to those seeking to simply live their lives (seeding Sangre del Diablo trees in Columbia) in order to get gain (more territory).
Their registered and licensed magical practitioners, using techniques established as allowable by corporate law, intentionally harm, even kill, others in order to empower their magic (blood magic, transferring drain, summoning blood spirits) in order to get gain (powerful spirits, take no drain, destroy enemies).
Members of their corporate board, with the approval and support of the rest of the board, have used corporate resources and employed aforementioned blood magic at massive levels in both quality and quantity in an attempt to get gain (summon the Horrors early, with the expectation of being rewarded).

With the possible exception of the very first, all of these are things that other corporations ... avoid, to put it delicately.  And as Aztechnology is the only corporation established in a country it totally controls (Saeder-Krupp's control of Germany is nowhere near the level of AZT over Aztlan), claiming and controlling a religion that corrupts and perverts the original well beyond its intent, it may claim that it is acting with both legal and moral authority.

But that don't make it so.

The guy who works for Aztechnology sweeping the street is not actively evil; he gets no gain from the practices of his corporation that harms others.  He accepts its actions in order to a) stay off the 'next on the altar' list, b) feed his family, c) watch Aztlan blood sports; he commits passive evil, as per the above.

The guy who works for Aztechnology as a middle-manager, making sure that Nutri-Soy continues to flow, is not actively evil; he is not wielding the knife, he is not getting gain from his corporation's intentionally harmful practices -- unless he knows that one of the Nutri-Soy flavor additives is a low-level cumulative poison, and then he is in collusion.  This is the sort of thing that probably happens the corporate world over in Shadowrun.  Even if he doesn't, however, he is passively evil, as much as the AZT street-sweeper is.

The Aztechnology security mage who sacrifices people in order to throw killer firebolts at pesky shadowrunners is harming another to get gain (i.e. to not have to take the drain/damage himself).  He may be defending the place at the orders of someone else, but like any soldier, he's in a risky business; he shouldn't be throwing killer firebolts, should he?  Or if he does, he should be striving to withstand the drain himself, not open up someone's cartoid artery in order to use THEM to soak the drain.  This, no matter what spin one attempts to put on it, is evil -- and corporation approved.

Approving of evil acts is evil.  Enshrining evil acts as being 'good for the company' does not make them good; it makes the act of enshrining itself evil.  'Necessary evil' is still evil.  It may be accepted, but it remains evil.

Milord: I await your reply.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-08-12/0105:02>
Gotta disagree, Can. Duty is well known in the Sixth World. Sure, a redneck CSA corporal may not like some of his higher ups if the are a minority he has a bias against, but it is his duty to yell "How high, sir!" when his commanding officer says to jump. He will just whine and bitch about it when he's off-duty. Honor, well, you find honor in the oddest places, and it's always subjective. A paladin from Charlemagne's court would not see anything honorable about a Yakuza oyubun, but the people under the oyubun would gladly disagree heartily. It's perspective in that sense. As far as good... We can't even define "evil" in the Sixth World, how can we figure out what good is? Is it a full belly and a warm place to sleep? Is it 'hooding for the local community? Is it even driving your enemies before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women? Again, perspective. Lots of great role-playing to be had just finding those perspectives in the Sixth World.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: JustADude on <04-08-12/0216:10>
*snip*
Using this central tenet of virtually every known religion and society (murder being just about the one thing that is illegal throughout the world), we must now review the actions of Aztechnology and Aztlan for egregious violations of this tenet.
*snip*
(emphasis mine, of course)


Very excellent summation, and I agree whole-heartedly.

I do have one small thing to note on this point, though: Most religions and societies also have a set of conditions where the phrase "He needed killing," comes into play. Generally, though, they're variations of self-defense and the defense of others with varying levels of premeditation and preemption.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-08-12/0800:14>
I refute magic claims because even by your estimates, it is one person in a thousand.  And of those, far fewer are performing the blood magic.  Statistically speaking, it is an anomaly.

Aztlan combat mages do not have a sack of babies that they sacrifice for casual spells, they have volunteers... probably well paid, but still... who are there to support the magician while he is defending his country. 

Man eating trees are just one more example of governments using plants and animals in a military role.  This goes back to the day after man discovered horticulture.  There are hedges and briars, the British once made an 'impenetrable' thicket of thorns that spanned all of India to control the salt trade.   They still use thorny acacia walls to protect settlements in Africa.  Poisonous plants are used in various roles too.  Ignoring that, Nature has created its own man killing trees.  There is a species of Eucalyptus indigenous to Australia that grows to over 300 feet tall and during droughts  will shed limbs half the diameter of the trunk.  There are trees which exude a toxin into the surroundings so that it doesn't have to compete with other plants for sunlight, there's a company that planted acres of this stuff for pulp wood and wiped out entire ecosystems.   

I think that you are missing a more important fact with the man eating trees.  Aztlan created a magic tree... take a moment to really let that sink in.  They created a magic organism.  This is not just a one off quirk, they made enough of it that they can deploy it as a defense mechanism.  If they can make a magic tree, what else can they make?

"Inflict no harm" ... alright you completely missed my point.  Everyone inflicts harm.  So by that logic, everyone is evil.  If everyone is evil, what's your justification for action against any specific group?

I didn't make up that definition of evil, I pulled it right off of Wikipedia, and before you poo poo wikipedia, it has been shown to be 98% accurate compared to college texts. 

When I see things like 99% of people consider such and such evil, I think that they are severely overestimating their case.  First of all, the Aztlaners don't think its evil, that's a big chunk of the population right there.  Then if you go overseas, Asia doesn't care, particularly the Bhudists. The NAN can't acknowledge blood magic is evil because they were founded on it (the Great Ghost Dance).  Africa is in no position to be the moral high ground... That leaves CAS, UCAS, Europe and Amazonia... and CAS and Amazonia are biased for political reasons.  Which leaves the UCAS and Europe... which means that Blood Magic is evil in the opinion of the Puritanical Western philosophy... big shock.

This is what I want you to take away from this discussion:
Cardboard evil is fine for a Saturday morning cartoon where you need to clearly show who to root for within the half hour time slot, but you can do better than that when telling a bigger grander story where other people can interact with it.  Yes, Aztechnology is a bad guy, but just one of many.  Yes, Aztechnology has in the past and will in the future be involved with horribly unpalatable things, but these things are not the ends, they are the means to accomplish some greater goal.  As a Runner, have actionable evidence before you act against any megacorp, of course that evidence could be a 10K nuyen deposit.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-08-12/1043:50>
Gotta disagree, Can. Duty is well known in the Sixth World. Sure, a redneck CSA corporal may not like some of his higher ups if the are a minority he has a bias against, but it is his duty to yell "How high, sir!" when his commanding officer says to jump. He will just whine and bitch about it when he's off-duty. Honor, well, you find honor in the oddest places, and it's always subjective. A paladin from Charlemagne's court would not see anything honorable about a Yakuza oyubun, but the people under the oyubun would gladly disagree heartily. It's perspective in that sense. As far as good... We can't even define "evil" in the Sixth World, how can we figure out what good is? Is it a full belly and a warm place to sleep? Is it 'hooding for the local community? Is it even driving your enemies before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women? Again, perspective. Lots of great role-playing to be had just finding those perspectives in the Sixth World.
Sorry Lacynth40, you're right.

I was in a pretty cynical frame of mind when I wrote that, got to watch out for those.  I mean, hell, most of my characters have honor in spades.  It's a strange, twisted form of honor, but it's there.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-08-12/1309:57>
I refute magic claims because even by your estimates, it is one person in a thousand.  And of those, far fewer are performing the blood magic.  Statistically speaking, it is an anomaly.

Aztlan combat mages do not have a sack of babies that they sacrifice for casual spells, they have volunteers... probably well paid, but still... who are there to support the magician while he is defending his country. 

You can't refute claims of magic because the Azzies are basically a Magocracy. Magic has everything to do with it.  ::)

Where are you getting the sacrifices are voluntary? Unless you consider mind controlled slaves volunteers, they aren't. Dawn of the Artifacts Midnight, is the latest, afaik, instance where they will just grab anybody around as a sacrifice. Show me where the sacrifices are volunteers.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: SwampFox on <04-08-12/2159:01>
What Joe wrote:
I refute magic claims because even by your estimates, it is one person in a thousand.  And of those, far fewer are performing the blood magic.  Statistically speaking, it is an anomaly.

Aztlan combat mages do not have a sack of babies that they sacrifice for casual spells, they have volunteers... probably well paid, but still... who are there to support the magician while he is defending his country. 

Man eating trees are just one more example of governments using plants and animals in a military role.  This goes back to the day after man discovered horticulture.  There are hedges and briars, the British once made an 'impenetrable' thicket of thorns that spanned all of India to control the salt trade.   They still use thorny acacia walls to protect settlements in Africa.  Poisonous plants are used in various roles too.  Ignoring that, Nature has created its own man killing trees.  There is a species of Eucalyptus indigenous to Australia that grows to over 300 feet tall and during droughts  will shed limbs half the diameter of the trunk.  There are trees which exude a toxin into the surroundings so that it doesn't have to compete with other plants for sunlight, there's a company that planted acres of this stuff for pulp wood and wiped out entire ecosystems.   

I think that you are missing a more important fact with the man eating trees.  Aztlan created a magic tree... take a moment to really let that sink in.  They created a magic organism.  This is not just a one off quirk, they made enough of it that they can deploy it as a defense mechanism.  If they can make a magic tree, what else can they make?

"Inflict no harm" ... alright you completely missed my point.  Everyone inflicts harm.  So by that logic, everyone is evil.  If everyone is evil, what's your justification for action against any specific group?

I didn't make up that definition of evil, I pulled it right off of Wikipedia, and before you poo poo wikipedia, it has been shown to be 98% accurate compared to college texts. 

When I see things like 99% of people consider such and such evil, I think that they are severely overestimating their case.  First of all, the Aztlaners don't think its evil, that's a big chunk of the population right there.  Then if you go overseas, Asia doesn't care, particularly the Bhudists. The NAN can't acknowledge blood magic is evil because they were founded on it (the Great Ghost Dance).  Africa is in no position to be the moral high ground... That leaves CAS, UCAS, Europe and Amazonia... and CAS and Amazonia are biased for political reasons.  Which leaves the UCAS and Europe... which means that Blood Magic is evil in the opinion of the Puritanical Western philosophy... big shock.

This is what I want you to take away from this discussion:
Cardboard evil is fine for a Saturday morning cartoon where you need to clearly show who to root for within the half hour time slot, but you can do better than that when telling a bigger grander story where other people can interact with it.  Yes, Aztechnology is a bad guy, but just one of many.  Yes, Aztechnology has in the past and will in the future be involved with horribly unpalatable things, but these things are not the ends, they are the means to accomplish some greater goal.  As a Runner, have actionable evidence before you act against any megacorp, of course that evidence could be a 10K nuyen deposit.

What I read:

Quote
Trollolololololol U Mad?
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-08-12/2211:45>
The magicians in AZT may be one in a thousand, but when they're the ones in charge, that argument becomes moot.

And then there's the matter of the Dragon. An eastern dragon that has been Corrupted by Horrors, if not actually changed in one of Verjigorm's cocoons.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-08-12/2358:46>
Also they didn't create the trees they just use them.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-09-12/0815:21>
Now 4th edition might be giving out metamagic like candy, but back in the day, blood magic was extremely rare. It was a metamagic ability but it was a secret one.  Take the population of Aztlan, divide by 10,000 (or 1000) to get the magicians, factor out the ones that are not initiated, then factor out the ones in other traditions, etc.  You end up with a handful of people even capable of using blood magic. These are the warrior caste.  If you don't agree that they are a very very small group, we simply have no basis for discussion here... we're simply talking about two entirely different settings (and that may well be true, I'm an older edition grognard).

From a practical standpoint, you need a surrogate to take the drain for you.  That surrogate needs to be restrained.  In a combat scenario, you can't practically drag around an unwilling restrained person.  That is why they have volunteers to soak the drain for the combat blood mage.  Note that spells that can use blood magic are different from regular spells and you can't use the same formula without the sacrifice. And if you want to be nasty and efficient about it, you could use a shapeshifter or some other regenerating creature to soak the drain.  There is also a story in the sports section I believe about how one of the top athletes, after winning that Aztlan game, tore out his own heart and sacrificed it.  That is why I say they use volunteers.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they take criminals and shadowrunners attacking their facilities as a sign of volunteering, but taking time out of combat to grab someone is going to get you killed.

Blood mages do not run Aztechnology.  They are a tool that exists to serve Aztlan and Aztechnology.  The ability to throw a nasty fireball is something every two bit lieutenant in the armed forces has with a simple radio call.  That isn't what lets you run a company.

Let me make this clear, I'm not saying that they are good guys, on the contrary they are bad, but evil is not the term I put on corporations.  Also, other corporations do far worse on a grander scale than the little pockets of magical assault that the rest of you are harping on.  Aztechnology does far worse stuff on a mundane scale than it does magically.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Nath on <04-09-12/1545:29>
As far as I saw, most sources say the only publicly acknowledged sacrifice are criminal executions. There are rumors and intelligence reports on secret sacrifices, but the public certainly doesn't get to know about those. Dunkelzahn's Will outed Aztlan and Aztechnology use of blood magic, but not what it exactly is and how frequent it could be (I'd compare that to international campaigns calling on to US and other countries to stop the manufacture and use of cluster munitions: does everyone now believe US military and police fire dozens of those every week?).

See Seattle Sourcebook page 57, Shadowbeat page 62 (my favorite part), Aztlan pages 90-92, New Seattle page 90, Corporate Download page 48 and 128 (where it says blood mages should be grade 8 initiate minimum, which givie an idea of how rare they should be at least back then), Street Magic page 36 and 139 (the only one I found who seem to suggest sacrifice are much more widespread), Runner Havens page 74, Corporate Guide page 75, Seattle 2072 page 161, War! page 29.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-09-12/1608:32>
The blood mages I know off the top of my head are a 6th and 7th grade initiate. The Vicar General from Colombian Subterfuge and the guy from DotA Midnight. IIRC Darke was only a 4th grade initiate.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Nath on <04-09-12/1710:25>
Darke was 6th grade initiate in Threats. However, there was a zeroth grade in 2nd edition IIRC, which would make his actual grade 7 in 3rd or 4th edition. The Blood Gestalt mage from the same book only had an average grade of 3 (but the way the Gestalt operated gave them together a virtual grade of 30). So yes, that's not consistent with Corporate Download.

Shadowrun lack in places of an unified scale for NPC Initiation Grade. I usually compare the suggested blood mages grade to the Ares and Novatech special forces in the same book (at least grade 3, except for Novatech Black Omega elite combat mages, which are grade 5 minimum with some of them skilled in cybermancy) but there's room for an argument here. The point stays the same, not every Aztlan or Aztechnology mage ought to be a blood mage.

Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-09-12/1737:17>
Argh! I want all my books!

I agree not all Azzie mages should be blood mages, but there are enough in places of power where they can't be discounted. The Vicar General for instance is in charge of the state religion or at least the path of the sun, which is a very high ranking position.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-09-12/1754:13>
Not all Azzie mages are blood mages. Only the important ones are.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-09-12/1810:22>
I agree not all Azzie mages should be blood mages, but there are enough in places of power where they can't be discounted. The Vicar General for instance is in charge of the state religion or at least the path of the sun, which is a very high ranking position.
The Church exists because it is a tool of the State.  That doesn't mean that the influence moves up the power chain.

It can, and you're very welcome to make it so if that's what you want, but it isn't a foregone conclusion.

Anyway, trying to come back to the OP:  Dunkelzahn (The Big D) comments with some other power payers in Aztlan.  There are numerous rumors about a dragon being in the upper ranks of Aztechnology but D keeps denying any knowledge of it... and then we find out that he WAS in the upper ranks and he was a dragon.  Talk about trolling.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <04-11-12/0510:44>
Two things, here.

Blood mages do not run Aztechnology.  They are a tool that exists to serve Aztlan and Aztechnology.  The ability to throw a nasty fireball is something every two bit lieutenant in the armed forces has with a simple radio call.  That isn't what lets you run a company.

Your argument is that Aztechnology, as defined by its corporate policies and practices, is not evil.  You have failed/refused at every turn to address our statements in regards to those corporate policies and practices, instead essentially indicating that 'single individuals/small groups do not a corporation make.'  While you are correct in the general sense, you fail (again) in the specific fact that corporate policies are created by single individuals and/or small groups.

You seem to concede that blood magic is evil.  Aztechnology corporate policy not only permits blood magic among its rank-and-file, it actively encourages it, in order to not waste corporate resources (effort on the part of its mages).  Since you are willingly and repeatedly blind / trolling, let us do a run-down of the top corporations.  Since it's you, let's include all the megacorporations we've known and loved/hated since First Edition.


Did I miss any?  Besides the zillion AA-rated and other lesser fish -- none of whom either permit or encourage blood magic.  Aztechnology corporate practice legalizes and encourages a reprehensible, corrupt, and foul practice.

Let's say that was, oh, I don't know -- theft.  Or carjacking.  Or drug dealing.  Or assault.  (Please note we're staying away from the more serious and sensitive crimes, here.)  Let's say that was happening in your town, and that the cops not only were permitting it, they were encouraging it.  "Hey, Joe, I noticed you didn't buy any cocaine this week.  Why is that?  Are you unpatriotic?"  When your car gets stolen, are you going to shrug and start walking to work because the desk sergeant got his payoff from it, or are you going to start calling the cops corrupt?

Let me make this clear, I'm not saying that they are good guys, on the contrary they are bad, but evil is not the term I put on corporations.  Also, other corporations do far worse on a grander scale than the little pockets of magical assault that the rest of you are harping on.  Aztechnology does far worse stuff on a mundane scale than it does magically.

I'm sorry, does this make any of it any better?  Ares execs, all the way up to Damien Knight, are on the verge of getting indicted and thrown in prison -- if, y'know, its own people don't riot and string the f***ers up by their necks for being <<redacted for foul language>>  -- for experimenting on insect spirits.  Lofwyr and Buttercup have close, personal discussions with people within their companies who are using other sentients as experimental subjects.  Similar things happen in similar places -- because no other corporation holds its own puppet country that has significant amounts of territory.

Do sections of other corporations do bad things too?  Yes.  Do they get punished?  Sometimes, eventually, yes.  Does 'punishment' for doing 'bad things' happen in Aztechnology?  No.  Completely ignoring the toxic magical practices, the chemical fouling of a big chunk of their own territory in order to disrupt an internal revolution because people wanted to be heard, Aztechnology does not try to punish wrongdoers within its corporate structure; it spins the information, then asks whether or not the wrongdoing can be made profitable.

If you honestly think that any of these practices are somehow acceptable -- that murder and paingiving, whether ritual or casual, is 'okay' --  then I think you need to unplug and walk away from the board and the game, and go do some volunteer work at your nearest homeless shelter.  Get back in touch with the rest of Real Humanity, because there may be something seriously wrong.

If you're trolling, whether that's intentionally trying to piss people off (a big no-no hereabouts, and may you receive all the good things coming to you for doing so) or just accidental, or if you've got this idea that you're playing Devil's Advocate, well -- time to stop.  Again, unplug, walk away, come to understand that your arguments are fallacious and that even the Devil is looking at you like you're off your rocker.  Just walk away; you've been wrong for over 20 years on this one.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-11-12/0740:34>
This whole thing started because someone said Aztechnology are dicks and that's why we can't have nice things.  My stance is that actions can be evil but people and corporations can't.  I've been seeing a lot of acts described as evil, but they don't have do be done for evil reasons.  In fact the "How do we make this profitable?" can be seen as "How can we make some good of this?"  I've seen people repeatedly say that there are a few bad eggs at the top.  That doesn't mean that everyone in Aztechnology is bad, just those bad eggs.    So, no, they aren't all dicks.  And, no, that isn't the reason we can't have nice things.

You're welcome to play Aztechnology as a Saturday Morning Villain with the waxed mustache and puppies to kick, but I choose to have them with a more complex agenda.  They don't do evil things for the sake of being evil, whatever they do, it is for a larger purpose... one that has not been disclosed.  If you really think that Aztechnology is trying to summon Cthulhu and end the world, then by all means, issue the Omega Order and simply remove them from the playing field.  I personally don't think that anyone capable of putting together an organization like Aztechnology is foolish enough to have that as a goal.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: JustADude on <04-11-12/0817:55>
My stance is that actions can be evil but people and corporations can't [be evil].

*SNIP*

I personally don't think that anyone capable of putting together an organization like Aztechnology is foolish enough to have that as a goal.

If you think that, Joe, then you have not even an inkling of a clue about how stupid, short-sighted, and self-deluding humans can be.

You're also, apparently, blissfully unaware of the kind of sick, psychotic monsters that are walking around out there... and long may you stay deluded. That particular lesson is something nobody should have to have brought home.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Cailieg on <04-11-12/1125:14>
I honestly do not think Joe is trolling.

His stance may not match ours (I think Aztechnology is a relatively horrible, abominable, morally reprehensible, some would say evil, corporation), but what he is saying is just a different view of morality. One who's basic tenants I can understand. Moral Relativism. What is moral to you may not so be to another man, and what is moral to him may not be so to you.

It is called  Meta-ethical Moral Relativism and is the basis for his stance, and indeed, were this the basis for a Lincoln-Douglas debate topic it is one I could easily defend or attack.

I am going to use something many of us geeks (even we female ones ^_~ in college I was more interested in code than men or women) would once long ago have been accused of knowing nothing about, sex. The information I will be using to defend this was all found easily on google with a couple keyword searches.

In the United States alone the statute for sexual conduct between two individuals varies from legal for a 13-14 year old if they are married, to 15 in some states, 16 in some states, 18 in some states, 4 year max difference in some states, 3 year max difference in some states and on and on and on.....read that people in California, and other "modern" states. You still have states on the books that allow 13 year old marriage and sexual congress with parental consent, some places have judicial oversight to make certain it is not predatory, others go on faith of parental consent alone. That is in the United States. If we go to Europe, then Asian, then India, then Africa, we will get numbers so vastly disparate as to make some western stomachs turn.

Before I am called wrong I present - http://www.usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/teen_marriage_laws/index.shtml

Below are the states that have a absolute minimum for marriage and thus consummation, their non married consensual sex laws can be found at a later link. Note many other states have laws such as "Marriage under 15 if the court deems it in the child's best interest" which would likely not happen nowadays, so avoiding nebulous states. However there are plenty that allow "under 15" with "notarized parental consent" or "Under 15 in situations such as pregnancy a court becomes involved, but not if pregnancy is not involved" that I will likewise avoid listing so as not to clog up the thread with information provided in the links.

New Hampshire (13 Brides, 14 grooms)
New York (14 min)
North Carolina (14 min)

Many people, myself included, would look horrendously dis-favorably on a union between someone 13-14 and someone 20-24, but in some places in the country, as wrong as that may sound and as rare as it may be (read that too cause it is part of what he is saying, Blood Magic, though common for Aztlan/Aztechnology is still proportionately rare compared to the populace by virtue of limiting how many people "would/could" do it) it is completely and utterly legal. Without even heading out of the United States. If we did that some of your heads might spin with the question of are countries such as Sudan and Yemen with no age for marriage and consummation age evil, where the basis is still has she begun her menses? How about countries who's sexual consent age hovers at 14 or even lower (some as low as 12....)? Now imagine that 12 year old with a 48 year old man....sick to the stomach, yes....evil.....I want to say yes, but I cannot, because it is their culture.

http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

What Joe is trying to say. Is that though we may want to label them evil, because they do not fit our moral view, it is difficult to do so with people of different faiths and locales and even more so with nebulous organizations such a corporations or governments.

Are countries that have marriage between pre-adult men and women evil? I cannot say, because our views are relative to our cultural, religious and personal situations. What about countries that allow sex with what I consider all but children? It may make me want to puke but it is neither my culture nor my government and or religion....who am I to say.  I may find them morally reprehensible for it, but evil, hard to dub. I have a hard time pinning evil on most national governing bodies at this point in time, though there are some who's actions I deplore. As a married lesbian there are places in the world the Government would seem very evil to me, they would after all kill me. But to them, I am the one in the wrong, the sinner, who chose a dirty path, and only by death can I be cleansed. Until Meta-ethical Moral Realtivism is resolved into a unified theory worldwide of what is and is not moral (read: that would generally mean one religion, one government) Moral Relativism is here to stay.

I may not agree completely with what he says, but I "get" the message. He is not trolling.


Alexis
/defensive soapbox off
*smiles*
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Cailieg on <04-11-12/1138:57>
Now to get back on the topic.

I have been pondering what if Dunkelzahn did not slow the time schedule back down. If he did not die. Say he did have the power in the Earth's current manasphere even with such a great title from the Namegivers' to perform the ritual to empower the Dragonheart.

What effects do some of you see in relation to the Horrors?

What about Ghostwalker? He arrived through the rift, what if Dunkelzahn did not die, would Ghosty appear? Would he not have come at all? I mean if MountainShadow was not killed would IceWing return? ^_~

So many things changed in the wake of that Wyrm's death, it may have, in many ways been his master stroke. He shook up the world and changed its course, but where would it have gone without that change?

I have been thinking it would make an amazing alternate reality for Shadowrun and have been pondering it a lot lately.


Alexis
*smiles*
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: jonathanc on <04-13-12/2314:52>
For the record, he was definitely trolling, and he did a good enough job to kill my thread.



Thanks, dick.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-14-12/0017:17>
For what it's worth, I apologize for my part in this. I had no idea my little joke would spiral out of control like that. Differences in opinions and misunderstandings are killers.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-14-12/0038:57>
For the record, he was definitely trolling, and he did a good enough job to kill my thread.



Thanks, dick.

Well, he's evil, and that's why we can't have nice things. *hides*
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Black on <04-14-12/0533:02>
Growing up with old Marvel comics, I have a special place in my heart for "What If?" scenarios, so I was wondering: What if Dunkelzahn never died?

Now, I know that his death was related somehow to trying to stop the Horrors through something called the Dragonheart, but let's examine a few alternate scenarios:


1. Dunkelzahn returns in the mid to late 2070's, restored by some weird Artifact or other that the Draco Foundation located. What would he do? How would the other GD's react?

2. Dunkelzahn's death was faked, and he has been behind the Draco Foundation all along. What has he been doing all this time?

3. Dunkelzahn's death never happened. He either survived the explosion, or the explosion never happened. What would an active, public Dunkelzahn with the might of the UCAS behind him have done? How might the 2070's look differeng if this occurred?

Threads can be resurrected.

Now... hmmm...

1. This is hard, things have changed and his place in the world is well and truly gone.  Retake control of the Foundation, maybe a public role in the United Nations (ambasador for peace or somesuch).  He might use his shares in Ares (via Nadia) to begin to bring balance and sanity back to the corp... or he may end up with a seat on the board of a different corp (maybe Evo?).  Of course this assumes that he can abandone his place in the metaplanes.  Would upset the current dragon maneuvers a lot.   Even 'allies' like hestiby or ghostwalker may not react favourably...

2.  Metaplanes stuff.  Maybe gathering artifacts to strengthen the barriers, building a safe haven somewhere for when the horrors arrive, laying eggs and raising baby dragons...  building an army of drakes... travelling the world disguised as a normal guy, helping people randomly as he drifts from town to town.

3.  Assumes that he didn't need to sacrifice himself...  A more stable UCAS, one in which Ares has been kept sane, in which there was no new revolution coup attempts.  Perhaps one which has built alliances with strange friends around the world. Possibly even reincorporated some of the successor nations like Quebec (A dragon actively playing politics can do anything...)  Maybe a UCAS which is far more active on the international stage, particularly with magical threats.  Maybe even actively intervening in the Amazonia/Aztlan conflict.....  however, people would become tired of him, and begin to fear the President who never gets old.  The constant media scrutiny (particular by the press working for his political enemies) would find examples of his 'alien' mindset.  Dunky may even struggle to achieve his goals with so much public spotlight and gracefully retire so that he can actually get things done...  Actually that fits Point 2 quiet well...
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Cailieg on <04-14-12/1120:58>
For the record, he was definitely trolling, and he did a good enough job to kill my thread.



Thanks, dick.


I am a female, so calling me a dick is a bit out of hand to say the least. If you are calling him one then replying to my assertions that I did not feel he was trolling before the insult points it at me and not at him.

I still do not see his posts as trolling. I stated my position clearly and concisely, in a completely non dickish way and then proceeded to post a separate post about the OP to attempt to help to steer things back on topic. I would have left it there, had you not called me a dick....

To be honest I found his posts the most intellectually driven, primarily because he has obviously removed his personal views from his argumentative ones . He is not defending a personal belief but coming at things like a debate major. A trait I can highly appreciate as I was a National L-D Champion in High School. As such I can easily see where he is coming from. Now, did the talk of moral relativism derail the thread a bit? Yes. But at the same time it sparked a rather deep moral debate about life in the shadows. One I personally felt was compelling enough to read and follow. Certainly such a topic could and should be a thread/topic of it's own. For my part in the derailing I too, apologize.

Now back on topic

Threads can be resurrected.

Now... hmmm...

1. This is hard, things have changed and his place in the world is well and truly gone.  Retake control of the Foundation, maybe a public role in the United Nations (ambasador for peace or somesuch).  He might use his shares in Ares (via Nadia) to begin to bring balance and sanity back to the corp... or he may end up with a seat on the board of a different corp (maybe Evo?).  Of course this assumes that he can abandone his place in the metaplanes.  Would upset the current dragon maneuvers a lot.   Even 'allies' like hestiby or ghostwalker may not react favourably...

2.  Metaplanes stuff.  Maybe gathering artifacts to strengthen the barriers, building a safe haven somewhere for when the horrors arrive, laying eggs and raising baby dragons...  building an army of drakes... travelling the world disguised as a normal guy, helping people randomly as he drifts from town to town.

3.  Assumes that he didn't need to sacrifice himself...  A more stable UCAS, one in which Ares has been kept sane, in which there was no new revolution coup attempts.  Perhaps one which has built alliances with strange friends around the world. Possibly even reincorporated some of the successor nations like Quebec (A dragon actively playing politics can do anything...)  Maybe a UCAS which is far more active on the international stage, particularly with magical threats.  Maybe even actively intervening in the Amazonia/Aztlan conflict.....  however, people would become tired of him, and begin to fear the President who never gets old.  The constant media scrutiny (particular by the press working for his political enemies) would find examples of his 'alien' mindset.  Dunky may even struggle to achieve his goals with so much public spotlight and gracefully retire so that he can actually get things done...  Actually that fits Point 2 quiet well...

A lot of good ideas in here. And great thoughts as well. I have to agree wholeheartedly with #1. The other great dragons, even his allies, have been forced to deal with the Draco foundation ordeal and then move their own plans forward. Having Dunkelzahn back would certainly toss some spanners in some engine works, for which they may not be wholly thankful.

I like your take on #2, roughly what I saw as likely in the event of a fake-out as well. Gonna have to chew on #3 a bit. I agree the media would eventually latch onto his Draconic traits as the means to crucify his terms but really have not thought about what his terms may have been like..


Alexis
*smiles*

Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-14-12/1300:39>
Quote from: jonathanc
1. Dunkelzahn returns in the mid to late 2070's, restored by some weird Artifact or other that the Draco Foundation located. What would he do? How would the other GD's react?
Following much of the Shedim incidents, raising the dead was declared illegal.  So whoever did it would be in hot water legally.  Also, once dead, you lose all rights.   At best, he would be a secret tool of whoever brought him back.

Quote from: jonathanc
2. Dunkelzahn's death was faked, and he has been behind the Draco Foundation all along. What has he been doing all this time?
This is major insurance fraud.  Again very illegal. 

Quote from: jonathanc
3. Dunkelzahn's death never happened. He either survived the explosion, or the explosion never happened. What would an active, public Dunkelzahn with the might of the UCAS behind him have done? How might the 2070's look differeng if this occurred?

Personally, I find it dubious for a dragon to be allowed to run for President of the UCAS.  I find it even more dubious for him to win the election (screw the popular vote, there's an electoral congress for just this sort of reason.).  Once you get past those notions, whoever died in the blast could have been a stand in.  Why make yourself accessible if you don't need to?

Let me add 4.  What if 4th edition is just a simulation of Deus inside the SCIRE using all the trapped victims as test subjects to test scenarios.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Nath on <04-14-12/1437:07>
Personally, I find it dubious for a dragon to be allowed to run for President of the UCAS.
Dunkelzahn citizenship was a political move that sort of backfired. President Thomas Steele and his political allies had the popular dragon granted full citizenship by a special act of the Congress, overcoming the specie issue.

The "naturel-born-citizen" clause would likely not prevent Dunkelzahn from running. The seven first presidents of the United States were born in places that would be part of the US territory, but they couldn't be citizen of something that didn't exist at the time. The issue was even more complicated when the UCAS formed, since part of the UCAS population (and UCAS politicians) were born in places that would not be part of the UCAS as they were given to the NAN in 2018.
Dunkelzahn was not born in a place that is part of the UCAS (Europe probably). But he was already residing in Colorado when it became part of the United States. So it would depend a lot on the exact wording of the UCAS Constitution.

I find it even more dubious for him to win the election (screw the popular vote, there's an electoral congress for just this sort of reason.).
Quote
The Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America
The president and vice president are elected to four-year terms, but by a simple majority of the popular ballot. The UCAS has no electoral college. There is also no limit on the number of terms a president may serve.

Shadows of North America, page 168
The president and vice president are elected to four-year terms by a simple majority of vote of the popular ballot (the UCAS has no electoral college). There is no limit to the number of terms a president may serve.
No electoral college so. Also, Dunkelzahn won "by a narrow margin" over Kenneth Brackhaven, and there was as much as six candidates. So the dragon's actual result may have been anywhere from 50 to 20%.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-14-12/1443:52>
The "naturel-born-citizen" clause would likely not prevent Dunkelzahn from running. The seven first presidents of the United States were born in places that would be part of the US territory, but they couldn't be citizen of something that didn't exist at the time. The issue was even more complicated when the UCAS formed, since part of the UCAS population (and UCAS politicians) were born in places that would not be part of the UCAS as they were given to the NAN in 2018.
Dunkelzahn was not born in a place that is part of the UCAS (Europe probably). But he was already residing in Colorado when it became part of the United States. So it would depend a lot on the exact wording of the UCAS Constitution.
He used the loophole that was created to allow Canadians to run for President when the UCAS was founded, IIRC.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-14-12/1540:32>
A simple majority requires over 50%. A plurality or Relative Majority means the most votes of any one candidate.  If UCAS is using First Past the Post voting then there should be a runoff... may have been.  If instead they use Instant Runoff Voting or Alternative Voting, then one voting session is all that is needed.

In either case, for a dragon to get enough to win a popular vote in the climate of 2057, it smacks of voter fraud.  Maybe that's why he offed himself, so that he could select the person to run the UCAS and avoid the voter fraud investigation.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-14-12/1548:28>
It was a close race, with the racist bastard who wasn't even his father's son coming in damned close to Dunkie.

As for fraud, I could see most Dragons doing it, but Dunkie?  Nah, he had star power behind him thanks to his 'trid show.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-14-12/1707:58>
Really?  I mean you did see what he did to that one guy in his will right, stripped him of his SIN and basically put a hit out on him for making a deal with a dragon?  You do know about his secret organization of ShadowOps right?  You do know he was on the Board of Aztechnology right?
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-14-12/1807:52>
Also, Dunkelzahn won "by a narrow margin" over Kenneth Brackhaven, and there was as much as six candidates. So the dragon's actual result may have been anywhere from 50 to 20%.

Underworld, Shadowland v2.1 News (Page 7):
Quote
Here are the official election results, finalized by the UCAS gummint its own self. Dunkelzahn: 47,827,746 votes, or 37%. Brackhaven: 38,754,731 votes, or 30%. Vogel: 23,200,993 votes, or 18%. Yeats/Penchyk: 12,831,834 votes, or 10%. Hernandez: 5,054,964, or 4%. Booth: 1,166,530, or 1%. Other freaks and weirdoes got 777,687 votes. Click here for more useless breakdowns.

The UCAS has the worst system possible for electing the President, a simple winner-take-all system based solely on the highest number of votes combined with six major political parties.

Anyway, it doesn't matter where he was born because the natural born citizen requirement isn't in the UCAS Constitution. However it applied to Dunkelzahn, it was made absolutely clear when Nadja Daviar became Vice President (and then President, maybe  :-X ) because she was born in Estonia.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Cranstonvm on <04-14-12/1815:01>
Was it ever mentioned why The Big D wanted Lars J. Matthews dead so bad?
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-14-12/1817:55>
Was it ever mentioned why The Big D wanted Lars J. Matthews dead so bad?
No.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Cranstonvm on <04-14-12/1820:11>
Also, Dunkelzahn won "by a narrow margin" over Kenneth Brackhaven, and there was as much as six candidates. So the dragon's actual result may have been anywhere from 50 to 20%.

From Underworld, the Shadowland v2.1 News page (Page 7)
Quote
Here are the official election results, finalized by the UCAS gummint its own self. Dunkelzahn: 47,827,746 votes, or 37%. Brackhaven: 38,754,731 votes, or 30%. Vogel: 23,200,993 votes, or 18%. Yeats/Penchyk: 12,831,834 votes, or 10%. Hernandez: 5,054,964, or 4%. Booth: 1,166,530, or 1%. Other freaks and weirdoes got 777,687 votes. Click here for more useless breakdowns.

The UCAS has the worst system possible for electing the President, a simple winner-take-all system based solely on the highest number of votes combined with six major political parties.


It was inherited from the USA. Check out the presidential election of 1860 if you want to see an almost equal mess.:)
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-14-12/1822:58>
1824 was worse.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-14-12/1846:43>
Canada's system isn't much better.  At least we have a paper trail, however.  And a system set up that's so simple anyone can figure it out.  "If you can make an 'X', you're my kind of people!"
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-14-12/1850:29>
CanRay did you just toss your hat into the ring for President or Mayor or whatever y'all have up there?  ;)
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Cranstonvm on <04-14-12/1850:54>
Growing up with old Marvel comics, I have a special place in my heart for "What If?" scenarios, so I was wondering: What if Dunkelzahn never died?

Now, I know that his death was related somehow to trying to stop the Horrors through something called the Dragonheart, but let's examine a few alternate scenarios:


1. Dunkelzahn returns in the mid to late 2070's, restored by some weird Artifact or other that the Draco Foundation located. What would he do? How would the other GD's react?

2. Dunkelzahn's death was faked, and he has been behind the Draco Foundation all along. What has he been doing all this time?

3. Dunkelzahn's death never happened. He either survived the explosion, or the explosion never happened. What would an active, public Dunkelzahn with the might of the UCAS behind him have done? How might the 2070's look differeng if this occurred?

1. I think the other Great Dragons would either go after him with everything if his  Resurrection wasn't planned or say " 'bout time you came back, I am keeping everything you gave me."If resurrecting is something a great Dragon can do.

I am a firm believer in magic or enough magic can do just about anything. So it might be entirely possible he gets reborn or gets resurrected. A whole bunch of religious dogma would come back with him. Dunkie did not give everything of his away publicly in his will so he would have a considerable amount of stuff left especially if it was planned.

 2. If it was  faked he would be better off not appearing. Everything that was done in his name would be ridiculed or destroyed if it was proven his assassination was faked. Jealous great dragons, jealous of his popularity would definitely expose him or anti-Dragon policlubs would try and have a field day.

 3.UCAS Could become a new  Camelot, if and it is a big if, he is successful in getting positive achievements for the citizens. Many things could derail his presidency everything from a major terrorist attack to clever manipulation of events by rivals, whether they be Dragon, AI, Spirit  or metahuman. It is very rare that a president while he is in office is proclaimed a hero. While it is very often presidents are proclaimed idiots or incompetent during their presidency. It would basically have to be history that decide whether his presidency was good or not.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CitizenJoe on <04-14-12/1852:23>
That's over 75% voter turnout.  About a third higher than typical for presidential elections.  And that was after the population went through another voter fraud election.    Now if you factor out the votes for Dunklezahn, it comes right back in line with the typical voter turn out.  Seems legit...
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-14-12/1857:09>
1. He tries to stop the other greats from fighting and fails.

2. He stays out of the spotlight and continues on his life as Skip Goodheart.

3. The opposite of dystopia and he eats the New Revolution for lunch, literally.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-14-12/1911:04>
That's over 75% voter turnout.  About a third higher than typical for presidential elections.  And that was after the population went through another voter fraud election.    Now if you factor out the votes for Dunklezahn, it comes right back in line with the typical voter turn out.  Seems legit...
Especially with an election where you have a dragon actually running for office. When Obama ran in '08, there was an increased turnout as well, for similar reasons. First of its kind, historic run, and all that. I'd imagine there was fairly high voter turnout when Colloton ran, as well, being the hero of both the Arcology and stomping on the New Revolution.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-14-12/1913:28>
CanRay did you just toss your hat into the ring for President or Mayor or whatever y'all have up there?  ;)
Leader of a Party, and possible Prime Minister or Loyal Opposition Leader.

No, I didn't.  As soon as the skeletons come out of my closet, I'll either be a shoe-in for PM, or arrested.  ...  Or both.

I mean, hell, we had a Member of Parliament that had been exiled from the country for awhile!  Apparently he had the balls to show up one day and sign the register as present...
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Black on <04-15-12/0523:36>
That's over 75% voter turnout.  About a third higher than typical for presidential elections.  And that was after the population went through another voter fraud election.    Now if you factor out the votes for Dunklezahn, it comes right back in line with the typical voter turn out.  Seems legit...

None of the fiction etc has even implied it was anything but legit.  Big D was a combination of Obama and Oprah.  Representing hope and stablity and such.. plus like every successful politician, he was backed by some major powers (or rather he backed him self, what with him being a major power as it turned out..)  And even then it was close, a lot of UCAS citizens weren't ready for a metahuman, let along a Dragon president.  It was a messed up race, with insect spirits, toxics and at least one canditate who wasn't who he thought he was (and he still came second...)
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Black on <04-15-12/0534:52>


A lot of good ideas in here. And great thoughts as well. I have to agree wholeheartedly with #1. The other great dragons, even his allies, have been forced to deal with the Draco foundation ordeal and then move their own plans forward. Having Dunkelzahn back would certainly toss some spanners in some engine works, for which they may not be wholly thankful.

I like your take on #2, roughly what I saw as likely in the event of a fake-out as well. Gonna have to chew on #3 a bit. I agree the media would eventually latch onto his Draconic traits as the means to crucify his terms but really have not thought about what his terms may have been like..


Alexis
*smiles*

I wonder what Big D would actually do in power as well... you known, the more mundane things that a President does, like.. policy.  Does the UCAS become more efficent, does he reform health care? curb corporate power? rebuild the military (maybe, maybe not), improve education (most certainly I think).  What was his policy platform beyond, 'I'm a Dragon, I care, and oh, I'm not the other guys'.    Is he an international president, travelly the world and bring peace to... somewhere war-torn (shouldnt be hard to find). (Actually, I think not, because to do so would bring conflict with other Dragons, however indirectly). Or does he show up in small cities (do they have towns anymore?) and do the whole town hall thing that Americans seem to like? Open a factory and things like that?  Does he recruit that dwarf eco-activist (forgotten his name for the moment) to his cabinet?

Oh, do UCAS (or USA for lack of information) politicians need to declare their financial interests?  To avoid conflicts of interests and such?  And do they need to move ownership from themselves, like give to their partners or a trust they dont manage?  Because he had a lot of stock and a lot of potential conflicts of interests.  Specially when your involved in foreign policy and the country your in negotiations is Aztlan and your a board member of the national corporation Aztechnology...

Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-15-12/0730:06>
I wonder what Big D would actually do in power as well... you known, the more mundane things that a President does, like.. policy.  Does the UCAS become more efficent, does he reform health care? curb corporate power? rebuild the military (maybe, maybe not), improve education (most certainly I think).  What was his policy platform beyond, 'I'm a Dragon, I care, and oh, I'm not the other guys'.    Is he an international president, travelly the world and bring peace to... somewhere war-torn (shouldnt be hard to find). (Actually, I think not, because to do so would bring conflict with other Dragons, however indirectly). Or does he show up in small cities (do they have towns anymore?) and do the whole town hall thing that Americans seem to like? Open a factory and things like that?  Does he recruit that dwarf eco-activist (forgotten his name for the moment) to his cabinet?

Invest in small business, encourage innovation and inventiveness of the individual metahuman, roll back megacorporate power, and offer the SINless amnesty to earn a SIN among other things. Some of it came to pass in one way or another while Haeffner was President, but he also had to deal with the corp war, Bug City, Deus, and Ghostwalker's return.


Quote
Oh, do UCAS (or USA for lack of information) politicians need to declare their financial interests?  To avoid conflicts of interests and such?  And do they need to move ownership from themselves, like give to their partners or a trust they dont manage?  Because he had a lot of stock and a lot of potential conflicts of interests.  Specially when your involved in foreign policy and the country your in negotiations is Aztlan and your a board member of the national corporation Aztechnology...


Currently, it depends on the office. Presidents have to put their holdings in a blind trust. Meanwhile, Congress still hasn't passed the law forbidding its members from using inside information gained as a part of their job for their own personal gain. Federal judges and justices have to recuse themselves or face disciplinary action where a case involves their financial interests. Everyone has to report their assets annually in a rather detailed report. Of course, this is a quick and dirty rundown, and it only applies to the U.S. There are 125,000 elected officials in the U.S. at the three major levels (federal, state + county, municipal) and the rest, and every political subdivision has a different set of ethical rules.


In the UCAS, this was touched on in Dragons of the Sixth World about Nadja Daviar but it basically comes down to this: She was Vice President of the UCAS, chair of the largest tax-exempt organization in American history, and a board member of Ares Macrotechnology. So ... No, there basically are no real ethical rules anymore.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-15-12/0830:56>
Bah!  The SINless can get a SIN, all they have to do is a few stretches in the Military!  What's 20-years of your life for citizenship for your family?  :P  *Cough*Orc's Lifetime*Cough*
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: JustADude on <04-15-12/0926:18>
Bah!  The SINless can get a SIN, all they have to do is a few stretches in the Military!  What's 20-years of your life for citizenship for your family?  :P  *Cough*Orc's Lifetime*Cough*

Actually, I thought it was one full tour and you get your SIN at the end of it whether you re-up or not.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-15-12/1005:54>
Bah!  The SINless can get a SIN, all they have to do is a few stretches in the Military!  What's 20-years of your life for citizenship for your family?  :P  *Cough*Orc's Lifetime*Cough*
Actually, I thought it was one full tour and you get your SIN at the end of it whether you re-up or not.
And you believed the Recruiting Officer???   ::)
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Nycidian Grey on <04-15-12/2009:48>
Bah!  The SINless can get a SIN, all they have to do is a few stretches in the Military!  What's 20-years of your life for citizenship for your family?  :P  *Cough*Orc's Lifetime*Cough*

Actually, I thought it was one full tour and you get your SIN at the end of it whether you re-up or not.

I never thought about this but it would be an interesting game where the premise is you have some semi experienced shadowrunners that for different reasons decide or are recruited into the UCAS military as a specialist "government shadowrun" military unit. I actually think after I get my feet wet playing a bit I'm going to run that campaign it would be rather fun I think. Imagine something like Mission Impossible or Division(Nikita) in the world of shadowrun. It wouldn't be as freelance as normal runs but you would also get more resources.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-15-12/2018:22>
Deniable resources for deniable operations, however.  ;D
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Nycidian Grey on <04-15-12/2021:30>
Yup :)

Also a game like that would be much more rigger friendly as in normal shadowrun some of the coolest toys are way beyond a shadowrunner price wise.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: CanRay on <04-15-12/2115:18>
Foreign T-Birds HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!  ;D
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: JustADude on <04-16-12/0047:15>
Bah!  The SINless can get a SIN, all they have to do is a few stretches in the Military!  What's 20-years of your life for citizenship for your family?  :P  *Cough*Orc's Lifetime*Cough*

Actually, I thought it was one full tour and you get your SIN at the end of it whether you re-up or not.

I never thought about this but it would be an interesting game where the premise is you have some semi experienced shadowrunners that for different reasons decide or are recruited into the UCAS military as a specialist "government shadowrun" military unit. I actually think after I get my feet wet playing a bit I'm going to run that campaign it would be rather fun I think. Imagine something like Mission Impossible or Division(Nikita) in the world of shadowrun. It wouldn't be as freelance as normal runs but you would also get more resources.

My suggestion here would be to give them something like 450 BP or 900 Karma. Allow a rank or two of initiation/submersion, but don't let them spend any BP/Karma on Nuyen. Instead, give them something like 250,000¥* each for equipment and set the Availability cap at a flat 30 or 35, no Restricted Gear possible. Then, throw in "squad equipment" (vehicles and drones) and "consumables" (bullets, explosives, medkits, etc) for free as part of the unit's "operating budget".

That means that they, like the real Military, won't have to worry about the price-tag of the ordinance they're throwing down range, as long as they don't go overboard. Combine that with being able to skip the "baby steps" in gearing up, and that will put them squarely in the "Elite Commando" category, while still leaving them room to grow.

*If anyone wants to play a Technomancer, the only type that gets kinda screwed by this starting arrangement, I'd probably let them "buy" extra BP/Karma (1 BP/Karma for  5,000¥/2,500¥) out of their gear budget since they're the only ones without much in the way of tech or Foci to buy.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Cranstonvm on <04-16-12/0048:16>
Bah!  The SINless can get a SIN, all they have to do is a few stretches in the Military!  What's 20-years of your life for citizenship for your family?  :P  *Cough*Orc's Lifetime*Cough*

Actually, I thought it was one full tour and you get your SIN at the end of it whether you re-up or not.

I never thought about this but it would be an interesting game where the premise is you have some semi experienced shadowrunners that for different reasons decide or are recruited into the UCAS military as a specialist "government shadowrun" military unit. I actually think after I get my feet wet playing a bit I'm going to run that campaign it would be rather fun I think. Imagine something like Mission Impossible or Division(Nikita) in the world of shadowrun. It wouldn't be as freelance as normal runs but you would also get more resources.

I did a corporation version of this and it worked great I removed the resource priority and that was fun to watch them create whatever they think of. I was thinking Division game would be cool. MI teams would rule,especially if you had different people each game.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-16-12/0119:49>
Bah!  The SINless can get a SIN, all they have to do is a few stretches in the Military!  What's 20-years of your life for citizenship for your family?  :P  *Cough*Orc's Lifetime*Cough*

Actually, I thought it was one full tour and you get your SIN at the end of it whether you re-up or not.

I never thought about this but it would be an interesting game where the premise is you have some semi experienced shadowrunners that for different reasons decide or are recruited into the UCAS military as a specialist "government shadowrun" military unit. I actually think after I get my feet wet playing a bit I'm going to run that campaign it would be rather fun I think. Imagine something like Mission Impossible or Division(Nikita) in the world of shadowrun. It wouldn't be as freelance as normal runs but you would also get more resources.

My suggestion here would be to give them something like 450 BP or 900 Karma. Allow a rank or two of initiation/submersion, but don't let them spend any BP/Karma on Nuyen. Instead, give them something like 250,000¥* each for equipment and set the Availability cap at a flat 30 or 35, no Restricted Gear possible. Then, throw in "squad equipment" (vehicles and drones) and "consumables" (bullets, explosives, medkits, etc) for free as part of the unit's "operating budget".

That means that they, like the real Military, won't have to worry about the price-tag of the ordinance they're throwing down range, as long as they don't go overboard. Combine that with being able to skip the "baby steps" in gearing up, and that will put them squarely in the "Elite Commando" category, while still leaving them room to grow.

*If anyone wants to play a Technomancer, the only type that gets kinda screwed by this starting arrangement, I'd probably let them "buy" extra BP/Karma (1 BP/Karma for  5,000¥/2,500¥) out of their gear budget since they're the only ones without much in the way of tech or Foci to buy.

That is a cool idea. I might just try this sometime. +1 to you.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-16-12/0822:39>
Bah!  The SINless can get a SIN, all they have to do is a few stretches in the Military!  What's 20-years of your life for citizenship for your family?  :P  *Cough*Orc's Lifetime*Cough*

Actually, I thought it was one full tour and you get your SIN at the end of it whether you re-up or not.

I never thought about this but it would be an interesting game where the premise is you have some semi experienced shadowrunners that for different reasons decide or are recruited into the UCAS military as a specialist "government shadowrun" military unit. I actually think after I get my feet wet playing a bit I'm going to run that campaign it would be rather fun I think. Imagine something like Mission Impossible or Division(Nikita) in the world of shadowrun. It wouldn't be as freelance as normal runs but you would also get more resources.

My suggestion here would be to give them something like 450 BP or 900 Karma. Allow a rank or two of initiation/submersion, but don't let them spend any BP/Karma on Nuyen. Instead, give them something like 250,000¥* each for equipment and set the Availability cap at a flat 30 or 35, no Restricted Gear possible. Then, throw in "squad equipment" (vehicles and drones) and "consumables" (bullets, explosives, medkits, etc) for free as part of the unit's "operating budget".

That means that they, like the real Military, won't have to worry about the price-tag of the ordinance they're throwing down range, as long as they don't go overboard. Combine that with being able to skip the "baby steps" in gearing up, and that will put them squarely in the "Elite Commando" category, while still leaving them room to grow.

*If anyone wants to play a Technomancer, the only type that gets kinda screwed by this starting arrangement, I'd probably let them "buy" extra BP/Karma (1 BP/Karma for  5,000¥/2,500¥) out of their gear budget since they're the only ones without much in the way of tech or Foci to buy.
Why wouldn't the technomancer just get a lot of drones? Machine sprite in military biodrones.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: JustADude on <04-16-12/1102:03>
Why wouldn't the technomancer just get a lot of drones? Machine sprite in military biodrones.

Oh, they would. Thing is, "Squad Equipment" isn't part of the 250,000¥ budget, and both drones and vehicles count as "Squad Equipment" since they're robotic support for the whole squad, even though one player controls them. That also means Rigger types (Machine Sprite + Drone = TechnoRigger) can use proper military-grade hardware.

Essentially, for a game like this your missions are going to end up divided between "Sensitive Situation" missions, where stealth and discretion are of the utmost importance, and "Assault" missions.

"Sensitive Situation" missions check the players because you can't use the really nasty toys without screwing the pooch.

"Assault" missions, on the other hand, are going to be the pinkest and most mohawk-y of Pink Mohawk scenarios. The kinds of scenarios where using a swarm of Chameleon-Coated Dragonfly C12 drones to blow up a building would be a reasonable course of action.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Stry on <04-16-12/1619:57>
Also, Dunkelzahn won "by a narrow margin" over Kenneth Brackhaven, and there was as much as six candidates. So the dragon's actual result may have been anywhere from 50 to 20%.

Underworld, Shadowland v2.1 News (Page 7):
Quote
Here are the official election results, finalized by the UCAS gummint its own self. Dunkelzahn: 47,827,746 votes, or 37%. Brackhaven: 38,754,731 votes, or 30%. Vogel: 23,200,993 votes, or 18%. Yeats/Penchyk: 12,831,834 votes, or 10%. Hernandez: 5,054,964, or 4%. Booth: 1,166,530, or 1%. Other freaks and weirdoes got 777,687 votes. Click here for more useless breakdowns.

Also remember that election was a "special election" too, it was an election to fix the massive amount of e-vote tampering in the normal election.

The UCAS has the worst system possible for electing the President, a simple winner-take-all system based solely on the highest number of votes combined with six major political parties.

Anyway, it doesn't matter where he was born because the natural born citizen requirement isn't in the UCAS Constitution. However it applied to Dunkelzahn, it was made absolutely clear when Nadja Daviar became Vice President (and then President, maybe  :-X ) because she was born in Estonia.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-16-12/2149:21>
Also remember that election was a "special election" too, it was an election to fix the massive amount of e-vote tampering in the normal election.
Indeed.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-16-12/2152:27>
Why wouldn't the technomancer just get a lot of drones? Machine sprite in military biodrones.

Oh, they would. Thing is, "Squad Equipment" isn't part of the 250,000¥ budget, and both drones and vehicles count as "Squad Equipment" since they're robotic support for the whole squad, even though one player controls them. That also means Rigger types (Machine Sprite + Drone = TechnoRigger) can use proper military-grade hardware.

Essentially, for a game like this your missions are going to end up divided between "Sensitive Situation" missions, where stealth and discretion are of the utmost importance, and "Assault" missions.

"Sensitive Situation" missions check the players because you can't use the really nasty toys without screwing the pooch.

"Assault" missions, on the other hand, are going to be the pinkest and most mohawk-y of Pink Mohawk scenarios. The kinds of scenarios where using a swarm of Chameleon-Coated Dragonfly C12 drones to blow up a building would be a reasonable course of action.

It'd be a real trip to have a couple of Sensitive missions go full-blown pink mohawk right in the middle, though. Possibilities include the teams cover gets blown, and they have to fight their way out. A previously sensitive hostage situation turns deadly as the hostages start getting killed at a rapid pace. (Which means the hostage takers don't need them anymore for SOME reason...) Or a simple recon mission to check on another countries labs becomes an emergency extraction. Some very fun possibilities, and those are just the most obvious. It would be fun. 
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-16-12/2155:11>
Also remember that election was a "special election" too, it was an election to fix the massive amount of e-vote tampering in the normal election.
Indeed.

You say that like it was planned. That someone wanted a special election to happen.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Black on <04-16-12/2206:09>
That I would believe.  I suspect Big D didn't vote tamper, he didn't need to and its not his style... but the revealling of the fraud, the continued instistence to this day of innocence from Booth... and a Dragon whose friends with Mr Nanosecond Buyout...
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-16-12/2253:52>
Here's a lesson I learned many years ago on Shadowland, which became an iron-hard Law a week into law school:

 Never trust anyone who says "Indeed."
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Angelone on <04-16-12/2307:43>
How about indubitably?
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Black on <04-16-12/2328:44>
How about indubitably?

Only if they can pronounce it out loud without stumbling.  Anyone who can do that is 'evil genius' material.
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <04-17-12/0104:03>
How about indubitably?
Only if they can pronounce it out loud without stumbling.  Anyone who can do that is 'evil genius' material.
Not necessarily true.  They might sing it -- and then you've got a fan of Schoolhouse Rock and you're in real trouble...
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: FastJack on <04-17-12/0946:15>
How about indubitably?
Only if they can pronounce it out loud without stumbling.  Anyone who can do that is 'evil genius' material.
Not necessarily true.  They might sing it -- and then you've got a fan of Schoolhouse Rock and you're in real trouble...
+1 for you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZzG1jg4Ifo#t=2m54s)
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Longshot23 on <02-05-13/0539:21>
Here's a lesson I learned many years ago on Shadowland, which became an iron-hard Law a week into law school:

 Never trust anyone who says "Indeed."

Teal'c would find that attitude/rule . . . irritating.  ;)
Title: Re: What if....?
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <02-05-13/0922:35>
Here's a lesson I learned many years ago on Shadowland, which became an iron-hard Law a week into law school:

 Never trust anyone who says "Indeed."

Teal'c would find that attitude/rule . . . irritating.  ;)
Indeed.