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What if....?

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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #60 on: <04-07-12/1456:27> »
Evil is based on perception, I think we all agree on that. However, there are actions that are pretty universally considered evil.
No, we can't.  If you want my agreement, you have to stop using the term 'Evil' as it applies to a corporation.  You can use callous disregard for the sanctity of human life.  You can use unethical business practices.  You can use environmentally irresponsible.  But you're not allowed to use 'evil'.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #61 on: <04-07-12/1945:24> »
... okay, so you are trolling.

Since you're being snotty about this, and being morally relativistic, let's turn it around: Define evil.  Once YOU define what evil is, then we can point it out to you.

Note that we're NOT saying that certain practices of other corporations in the Shadowrun world aren't evil, or that certain activities aren't evil; we're saying that Aztechnology and Aztlan, having made such practices both corporate and national policy (as well as eliminating many of what are considered in the world today as basic human rights, such as the right to free speech, the right to peaceful assembly, the right of religious freedom, etc. etc.), is defined by the majority of individuals in the 6th World as being evil.  (Not to mention the majority of players of the game.)

Oh, they don't present themselves as being evil, especially not to their own people.  Those who are seen by society to be evil see themselves as doing what is necessary, doing what is good for their country (or religion), doing what God has told them to do, etc. etc. etc.  And to be honest, even evil people can achieve good ends.  Aztechnology makes serious profits, Hitler made the trains run like clockwork, etc.  This does not diminish the evil done.


So, Joe, O Troll -- define evil for us.  Or stop trolling.
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FastJack

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« Reply #62 on: <04-07-12/2017:20> »
Okay, time to stop this before it starts. I'm watching now.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #63 on: <04-07-12/2102:14> »
Evil is acting against a moral code.  There are lines of thought that say that people can't be evil, just actions.  There are also philosophies that state that some evil is good and in fact necessary.  But going back to the definition there, notice how vague and potentially all encompassing it is... acting against A moral code.  Since there are countless moral codes, many mutually exclusive, calling something evil is much akin to the pot calling the kettle black.  And that is pretty much my point.  If you don't like what Aztechnology is doing, that is fine, and it may very well be against your moral code, and thus YOU consider their acts to be evil, but that doesn't make every one of them evil, and it doesn't make the corporation evil, it just means that you disagree with what they've done and you (presumably) have other people of a like mind that agree with you.  If you choose to act against Aztechnology, then do so for your own reasons and not some high horse moral authority, because when it comes right down to numbers, there are more Aztlaners believing in their actions than there are of whatever your group is that thinks they are evil.

Perfectly valid reasons to haite/strike against Aztlan/Aztechnology that have nothing to do with them being evil.
1.  You're a Texan.
2.  You're a Southern Californian
3.  You're from the Yucatan
4.  You're a Carribean drug runner
5.  You're Amazonian
6.  You belong to a competing megacorp
7.  You can't pronounce most of their cities and it pisses you off
8.  It is Tuesday

CanRay

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« Reply #64 on: <04-07-12/2142:00> »
Perfectly valid reasons to haite/strike against Aztlan/Aztechnology that have nothing to do with them being evil.
1.  You're a Texan.
2.  You're a Southern Californian
3.  You're from the Yucatan
4.  You're a Carribean drug runner
5.  You're Amazonian
6.  You belong to a competing megacorp
7.  You can't pronounce most of their cities and it pisses you off
8.  It is Tuesday
9.  You're a Shadowrunner with more morals than Kane or Clockwork.  ;D  (And, honestly, even I think Kane feeds them "Poison Pills" for his money.).
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Parker

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« Reply #65 on: <04-07-12/2154:18> »
Now, now. And I thought the "Don't Feed the Troll" sign was prettyyyyyy obvious.... ::)
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Black

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« Reply #66 on: <04-07-12/2157:48> »
Perfectly valid reasons to haite/strike against Aztlan/Aztechnology that have nothing to do with them being evil.
8.  It is Tuesday
9.  You're a Shadowrunner with more morals than Kane or Clockwork.  ;D  (And, honestly, even I think Kane feeds them "Poison Pills" for his money.).

Actually, I would suspect that Clockwork would be uncomfortable with their more bloody aspects.  Just becomes his bias against technomancers doesn't mean that his blind to blood sacrifice.  Its a matter of perception I guess...

On a side note, 'evil' really is a subjective statement and not quantifiable.  There are certainly things in real life which are 99% universially consider, today, to be evil... but not many as perhaps people would like.  However, on a plus side, fiction is different .  Fiction has bad guys, fiction has evil, and for the most part, Aztechnology has always been portrayed in the fiction as evil.

If, however, in your own game you want to play the twist of 'there just misunderstood', then have fun with that.

Best idea for this thread, imho, is the seperate 'real' from fiction, or else this conversation may go nowhere... nice.

Also.... really not what the original thread was about... but nothing unusually there I guess :)
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #67 on: <04-07-12/2208:41> »
I'm not trolling, I'm playing Devil's Advocate.  Because something is 'evil' is insufficient justification for action in a Dystopian setting like Shadowrun, to which I put the fact that it is Tuesday on par with that rationalization. 

Note that Tuesday comes from Old English Tiwaz day or Tyr day, who was a god of justice and war.  Meanwhile in Spanish speaking Aztlan, Martes (Tuesday) comes from the Roman Mars, also a god of war.  Thus, Tuesday is an eminently appropriate day to act against Aztechnology or any of your enemies.

Have a better reason to dislike Aztechnology, or have a completely irrational reason.  Shadowrun is a world of grey and greyer morality, black and white have no business here.

CanRay

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« Reply #68 on: <04-07-12/2229:46> »
Clockwork might not like the bloody parts of AZT, but he really, really likes big credsticks.

As for "Gray and Gray Morality", more like "Black and Bloody Morality".  There isn't even a hint of white in my games.  Humor, yes.  Good, honor, duty?

...

Those are all tools used by forces more powerful than the people that have them.

Closest we got to those three virtuous things was Dunkie and Harley.  One of them's gone, and the other one is either drunk, griefing newbs on MMOs, or both...
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #69 on: <04-08-12/0100:07> »
Let me make this easy for you.  I will refute any magic basis for applying evil to Aztechnology.  Magicians account for less than 1 person in 100,000 people.  I can easily write off any magic as experimental or rogue events.  If you're going to get any traction, you need an argument based off of the mundane aspects of the corporation.

Sorry; this is trolling.  You are claiming to be playing 'devil's advocate', but you are categorically claiming the right to refuse valid points; this is trolling.

The percent of magically active is, I believe, greater than your above estimate; by your count, and presuming world population is about 7 billion, there are less than 70,000 magically active people in the 6th World -- less than 60 in pop: 6 million Seattle alone.  I think your SITD estimate is radically off.  Early fan discussions put the number of magically active at being 1 per 100 people, while 1:1000 (or 1 in 10 of those who are active) are capable of controlling/expressing it, while the other nine either go nuts, think they're just moderately better at what they do ('closet adepts'), or can't handle it psychologically and go insane.

This isn't really the issue on this particular point, though; the issue is that ritual sacrifice and use of all aspects of blood magic is a public part (acknowledgement AND practice) of Aztechnology and Aztlan.  Any attempts to claim otherwise ('research' or 'rogue') are utter hogwash.

However, I'd prefer to get back to your non-definition of evil:
Evil is acting against a moral code.  There are lines of thought that say that people can't be evil, just actions.  There are also philosophies that state that some evil is good and in fact necessary.  But going back to the definition there, notice how vague and potentially all encompassing it is... acting against A moral code.  Since there are countless moral codes, many mutually exclusive, calling something evil is much akin to the pot calling the kettle black.  And that is pretty much my point.
(Emphasis mine.)

First, 'lines of thought' ... 'philosophies' ... 'vague and potentially all-encompassing' ... 'countless codes, mutually exclusive'.  So what you're actually saying is that you refuse to define evil, as it is relative.  Very well, let's boil down old European codes, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism -- essentially the vast majority of moral codes -- to their very core:

Inflict no harm unto others for personal gain.

All your lines of thought, philosophies, and exclusivity boil down to this one line; the Wiccan Rede says it elegantly as 'An It Harm None, Do As Thou Wilt'.  Western Christianity generally names it the Golden Rule: 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'  Many people try to legalize their own moral codes into their governments and societies, but this takes morality and makes of it ethics -- law, and honor, &c.  These are not morality, though for a society to survive, all of them should be facing that way.  The primary corollary is that to witness someone harming another in order to get gain and allow it to happen is itself an evil act -- passive evil, not active, but evil nonetheless; to approve of evil is evil.

Using this central tenet of virtually every known religion and society (murder being just about the one thing that is illegal throughout the world), we must now review the actions of Aztechnology and Aztlan for egregious violations of this tenet.

They intentionally produce and sell products they know do harm to the consumer of the product (BTLs, drugs) in order to get gain (money, sometimes influence).
They intentionally perform actions intending to establish a zone which will cause harm to those seeking to simply live their lives (seeding Sangre del Diablo trees in Columbia) in order to get gain (more territory).
Their registered and licensed magical practitioners, using techniques established as allowable by corporate law, intentionally harm, even kill, others in order to empower their magic (blood magic, transferring drain, summoning blood spirits) in order to get gain (powerful spirits, take no drain, destroy enemies).
Members of their corporate board, with the approval and support of the rest of the board, have used corporate resources and employed aforementioned blood magic at massive levels in both quality and quantity in an attempt to get gain (summon the Horrors early, with the expectation of being rewarded).

With the possible exception of the very first, all of these are things that other corporations ... avoid, to put it delicately.  And as Aztechnology is the only corporation established in a country it totally controls (Saeder-Krupp's control of Germany is nowhere near the level of AZT over Aztlan), claiming and controlling a religion that corrupts and perverts the original well beyond its intent, it may claim that it is acting with both legal and moral authority.

But that don't make it so.

The guy who works for Aztechnology sweeping the street is not actively evil; he gets no gain from the practices of his corporation that harms others.  He accepts its actions in order to a) stay off the 'next on the altar' list, b) feed his family, c) watch Aztlan blood sports; he commits passive evil, as per the above.

The guy who works for Aztechnology as a middle-manager, making sure that Nutri-Soy continues to flow, is not actively evil; he is not wielding the knife, he is not getting gain from his corporation's intentionally harmful practices -- unless he knows that one of the Nutri-Soy flavor additives is a low-level cumulative poison, and then he is in collusion.  This is the sort of thing that probably happens the corporate world over in Shadowrun.  Even if he doesn't, however, he is passively evil, as much as the AZT street-sweeper is.

The Aztechnology security mage who sacrifices people in order to throw killer firebolts at pesky shadowrunners is harming another to get gain (i.e. to not have to take the drain/damage himself).  He may be defending the place at the orders of someone else, but like any soldier, he's in a risky business; he shouldn't be throwing killer firebolts, should he?  Or if he does, he should be striving to withstand the drain himself, not open up someone's cartoid artery in order to use THEM to soak the drain.  This, no matter what spin one attempts to put on it, is evil -- and corporation approved.

Approving of evil acts is evil.  Enshrining evil acts as being 'good for the company' does not make them good; it makes the act of enshrining itself evil.  'Necessary evil' is still evil.  It may be accepted, but it remains evil.

Milord: I await your reply.
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Lacynth40

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« Reply #70 on: <04-08-12/0105:02> »
Gotta disagree, Can. Duty is well known in the Sixth World. Sure, a redneck CSA corporal may not like some of his higher ups if the are a minority he has a bias against, but it is his duty to yell "How high, sir!" when his commanding officer says to jump. He will just whine and bitch about it when he's off-duty. Honor, well, you find honor in the oddest places, and it's always subjective. A paladin from Charlemagne's court would not see anything honorable about a Yakuza oyubun, but the people under the oyubun would gladly disagree heartily. It's perspective in that sense. As far as good... We can't even define "evil" in the Sixth World, how can we figure out what good is? Is it a full belly and a warm place to sleep? Is it 'hooding for the local community? Is it even driving your enemies before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women? Again, perspective. Lots of great role-playing to be had just finding those perspectives in the Sixth World.
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JustADude

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« Reply #71 on: <04-08-12/0216:10> »
*snip*
Using this central tenet of virtually every known religion and society (murder being just about the one thing that is illegal throughout the world), we must now review the actions of Aztechnology and Aztlan for egregious violations of this tenet.
*snip*
(emphasis mine, of course)


Very excellent summation, and I agree whole-heartedly.

I do have one small thing to note on this point, though: Most religions and societies also have a set of conditions where the phrase "He needed killing," comes into play. Generally, though, they're variations of self-defense and the defense of others with varying levels of premeditation and preemption.
« Last Edit: <04-08-12/0218:34> by JustADude »
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #72 on: <04-08-12/0800:14> »
I refute magic claims because even by your estimates, it is one person in a thousand.  And of those, far fewer are performing the blood magic.  Statistically speaking, it is an anomaly.

Aztlan combat mages do not have a sack of babies that they sacrifice for casual spells, they have volunteers... probably well paid, but still... who are there to support the magician while he is defending his country. 

Man eating trees are just one more example of governments using plants and animals in a military role.  This goes back to the day after man discovered horticulture.  There are hedges and briars, the British once made an 'impenetrable' thicket of thorns that spanned all of India to control the salt trade.   They still use thorny acacia walls to protect settlements in Africa.  Poisonous plants are used in various roles too.  Ignoring that, Nature has created its own man killing trees.  There is a species of Eucalyptus indigenous to Australia that grows to over 300 feet tall and during droughts  will shed limbs half the diameter of the trunk.  There are trees which exude a toxin into the surroundings so that it doesn't have to compete with other plants for sunlight, there's a company that planted acres of this stuff for pulp wood and wiped out entire ecosystems.   

I think that you are missing a more important fact with the man eating trees.  Aztlan created a magic tree... take a moment to really let that sink in.  They created a magic organism.  This is not just a one off quirk, they made enough of it that they can deploy it as a defense mechanism.  If they can make a magic tree, what else can they make?

"Inflict no harm" ... alright you completely missed my point.  Everyone inflicts harm.  So by that logic, everyone is evil.  If everyone is evil, what's your justification for action against any specific group?

I didn't make up that definition of evil, I pulled it right off of Wikipedia, and before you poo poo wikipedia, it has been shown to be 98% accurate compared to college texts. 

When I see things like 99% of people consider such and such evil, I think that they are severely overestimating their case.  First of all, the Aztlaners don't think its evil, that's a big chunk of the population right there.  Then if you go overseas, Asia doesn't care, particularly the Bhudists. The NAN can't acknowledge blood magic is evil because they were founded on it (the Great Ghost Dance).  Africa is in no position to be the moral high ground... That leaves CAS, UCAS, Europe and Amazonia... and CAS and Amazonia are biased for political reasons.  Which leaves the UCAS and Europe... which means that Blood Magic is evil in the opinion of the Puritanical Western philosophy... big shock.

This is what I want you to take away from this discussion:
Cardboard evil is fine for a Saturday morning cartoon where you need to clearly show who to root for within the half hour time slot, but you can do better than that when telling a bigger grander story where other people can interact with it.  Yes, Aztechnology is a bad guy, but just one of many.  Yes, Aztechnology has in the past and will in the future be involved with horribly unpalatable things, but these things are not the ends, they are the means to accomplish some greater goal.  As a Runner, have actionable evidence before you act against any megacorp, of course that evidence could be a 10K nuyen deposit.

CanRay

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« Reply #73 on: <04-08-12/1043:50> »
Gotta disagree, Can. Duty is well known in the Sixth World. Sure, a redneck CSA corporal may not like some of his higher ups if the are a minority he has a bias against, but it is his duty to yell "How high, sir!" when his commanding officer says to jump. He will just whine and bitch about it when he's off-duty. Honor, well, you find honor in the oddest places, and it's always subjective. A paladin from Charlemagne's court would not see anything honorable about a Yakuza oyubun, but the people under the oyubun would gladly disagree heartily. It's perspective in that sense. As far as good... We can't even define "evil" in the Sixth World, how can we figure out what good is? Is it a full belly and a warm place to sleep? Is it 'hooding for the local community? Is it even driving your enemies before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women? Again, perspective. Lots of great role-playing to be had just finding those perspectives in the Sixth World.
Sorry Lacynth40, you're right.

I was in a pretty cynical frame of mind when I wrote that, got to watch out for those.  I mean, hell, most of my characters have honor in spades.  It's a strange, twisted form of honor, but it's there.
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Angelone

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« Reply #74 on: <04-08-12/1309:57> »
I refute magic claims because even by your estimates, it is one person in a thousand.  And of those, far fewer are performing the blood magic.  Statistically speaking, it is an anomaly.

Aztlan combat mages do not have a sack of babies that they sacrifice for casual spells, they have volunteers... probably well paid, but still... who are there to support the magician while he is defending his country. 

You can't refute claims of magic because the Azzies are basically a Magocracy. Magic has everything to do with it.  ::)

Where are you getting the sacrifices are voluntary? Unless you consider mind controlled slaves volunteers, they aren't. Dawn of the Artifacts Midnight, is the latest, afaik, instance where they will just grab anybody around as a sacrifice. Show me where the sacrifices are volunteers.
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