Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Tsuarok on <05-16-12/1000:20>
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So, if a spirit tries to possesses a drone that is being rigged, does the rigger get to resist? Or just the drone? Would the rigger get dumped? Or just sit there helpless? Or something entirely different?
What if it's a spider and the spirit tries to possess the whole damned security system? :o
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Thematically speaking, if the spirit succeeds in possessing the drone, it gains control. If a rigger is inside, he has control. Since a spirit cannot interact with tech devices, it cannot boot the rigger or negate his commands. So the drone would then attempt to follow the orders it is given by the rigger and the spirit would have to counteract those orders and try to execute it's own actions.
This would result in one being dominant but it's tests being penalized in some manner. I would have them each roll their tests, the higher roll wins but with only their net hits over the other controller being the effectiveness of the action, and thus the hits for anyone else opposing said action. I would also describe the drone as jerky, glowing, and altogether confused.
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ImO thats not quite right. The Spirit gains control over everything Mechanical (Wheels,Robot Arms,etc) because possesion supercedes normal control
but the Rigger retains his control over everything electronic (Firing with a smartlink, Radio,Sensors,etc ) because the Spirit has no ...Grasp or Control of Computer an Electronics
But in the End I would handle it similar to Mason
HokaHow
Medicineman
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As described in vessel preparation, GM may want you to say exactly what part of the drone spirit is posessing, since whole drone is quite complex and hitech item.
I, for myself, would disallow this completely at my table, since every gear, whell, wing or engine part is is controled electronicaly and as such spirit has no chance to influence the movement of the drone, even if it is on its own, meaning Autopilot X Spirit situation. as most spirits has only 2IP in physical world, and every jumped in rigger or autopilot has 3IP, it is apparent for me, that spirit wont be able to manage override commands given by control systems.
Since there is only 1 driving action possible for each character, who will be allowed to effectively command the drone?
1. IP: Spirit tries to move left
2. IP: Autopilot overrides it
3. IP: Only autopilot is able to act
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Thats too simple thinking, your movement wont be at a point in time, but until your next action. So the conflict of control will be all the time, having more IPs wont give you any advantage.
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Thats too simple thinking, your movement wont be at a point in time, but until your next action. So the conflict of control will be all the time, having more IPs wont give you any advantage.
Im talking in game mechanics. How would you solve this?
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btw...what keeps the rotor spinning, when jumped in rigger decides to turn off the engine? Spirit? Yes, iti is the mechanical part but...srsly we want this? The only thing the spirit would be able to do then will be to spin the rotor. And what about driving? Or would that spirit be able to controll all mechanical parts at once?
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Or would that spirit be able to controll all mechanical parts at once?
Exactly that is what Posession is all about.
If a Spirit uses Posession on a living Body it posesses it completely. If the Spirit posesses a Vehicle/drone is posesses it completely.
If You say that a Spirit can Posess only Part of a vehicle/Drone than it can Posess only Part of a Body too
Which is....Hard to believe for me
He who dances as a whole
Medicienman
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If You say that a Spirit can Posess only Part of a vehicle/Drone than it can Posess only Part of a Body too
Which is....Hard to believe for me
I think sichr is mixing it up with vessel preparation, where you have to enchant different parts of the vessel, if its too complex. But if possessed or inhabitated, then yes, its all possessed as one.
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As described in vessel preparation, GM may want you to say exactly what part of the drone spirit is posessing, since whole drone is quite complex and hitech item.
I, for myself, would disallow this completely at my table, since every gear, whell, wing or engine part is is controled electronicaly and as such spirit has no chance to influence the movement of the drone, even if it is on its own, meaning Autopilot X Spirit situation. as most spirits has only 2IP in physical world, and every jumped in rigger or autopilot has 3IP, it is apparent for me, that spirit wont be able to manage override commands given by control systems.
Since there is only 1 driving action possible for each character, who will be allowed to effectively command the drone?
1. IP: Spirit tries to move left
2. IP: Autopilot overrides it
3. IP: Only autopilot is able to act
In Vessel Preparation on page 86 (SM) it says that each component may require separate preparation via enchanting, not that the resulting whole is not possessable. Considering that one of the examples given is a car, and many drones are just cars with a pilot program, I'd say that spirits may possess entire drones.
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OK. And now, how you will deal with it during single Combat turn.
@Medicineman: OK. When you find the body with five different auras on every part of the body, that would be what you will have to do. But drone parts are something different from Body parts, on that we maybe would even egree. For example, every part of the drone may be even manufactured by different company in the different part of the world ;)
And OK, we may agree that logic described in vessel preparation works for posession or inhabitting, but in this case it doesnt work for posession or inhabitting.
WUT? ???
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OK. And now, how you will deal with it during single Combat turn.
@Medicineman: OK. When you find the body with five different auras on every part of the body, that would be what you will have to do. But drone parts are something different from Body parts, on that we maybe would even egree. For example, every part of the drone may be even manufactured by different company in the different part of the world ;)
And OK, we may agree that logic described in vessel preparation works for posession or inhabitting, but in this case it doesnt work for posession or inhabitting.
WUT? ???
Reread vessel preparation.
"At the gamemaster’s discretion, large or complex vessels—particularly those with intricate mechanical parts or many components—may require the magician to enchant multiple components separately, rather than as a single Enchanting Test"
I see no reference to complex objects requiring multiple possessions, or only being partly possessable. To the contrary, I see rules specifying how to make a complex object possessable by a single spirit.
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Ah, my fault.
I guessed that if you have to prepare every part of the object, for the spirit to be able to posess whole object, it means, that otherwise spirit can posess only single or prepared part/s.
On the other side
The most important sentence is the firs of that quote:
"At the gamemaster’s discretion..."
So, as I said befere, I will discourage this at my table (well it still depends on situation and mood of our SR party :) )
And my reason is more philosophical than rulewise maybe...since spirits are unable to interact with AR and every piece of tech is beyon their understanding and experience, I would at least treat them as if theyy have (Force)Goblins negative quality. I like when some things mix, well some things I prefere to stay separated.
Beacuse i.e. all cars around here are theoreticaly dead vessels and I dont want to crash ballance of the setting by allowing shedims or any other Vanguards to be able to to poses those cars, drones, CHNs etc. I gladly welcome to think that they are able to interact only with enchanted items or with beings that have living aura.
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I gladly welcome to think that they are able to interact only with enchanted items or with beings that have living aura.
I'd been thinking of just running with the house rule of only allowing prepped vessels for any possession. Seems too disruptive otherwise.
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Voice of reason :D
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I gladly welcome to think that they are able to interact only with enchanted items or with beings that have living aura.
I'd been thinking of just running with the house rule of only allowing prepped vessels for any possession. Seems too disruptive otherwise.
Wow... congratulations, you just made Possession Spirits almost totally useless in one fell swoop.
Remember, Possession Spirits can't materialize independently. That means, if they're limited to prepared vessels, then they have no way to pop in by surprise and start wrecking drek up... something Materialization Spirits can do any time, any place without needing any type of vessel.
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What people often forget is that spirits need to make an opposed test in order to possess their vessels. Now, a living vessel that is willingly allowing the spirit to possess them can choose to automatically fail that test, but otherwise the spirit has to win the check or they can't possess that vessel. All preparing a vessel does is gives the spirit a +6 to try and possess the vessel. If the dice gods hate you, it is quite possible to fail to possess a prepared vessel. Likewise, if the dice gods are kind, you can even have a spirit possess an unprepared dracoform.
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I gladly welcome to think that they are able to interact only with enchanted items or with beings that have living aura.
I'd been thinking of just running with the house rule of only allowing prepped vessels for any possession. Seems too disruptive otherwise.
Wow... congratulations, you just made Possession Spirits almost totally useless in one fell swoop.
Remember, Possession Spirits can't materialize independently. That means, if they're limited to prepared vessels, then they have no way to pop in by surprise and start wrecking drek up... something Materialization Spirits can do any time, any place without needing any type of vessel.
You made me wonder something. If someone gets enough hits summoning their possession spirit, can they add materialization as well as one of the 'extra powers'? I'm just not real clear on just how exclusive those things are.
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You made me wonder something. If someone gets enough hits summoning their possession spirit, can they add materialization as well as one of the 'extra powers'? I'm just not real clear on just how exclusive those things are.
Not by Missions rules. There's a short-list of optional powers in the books available to each spirit.
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A bit excessive i think. If you use this you can't possess a guard during a run...
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I gladly welcome to think that they are able to interact only with enchanted items or with beings that have living aura.
I'd been thinking of just running with the house rule of only allowing prepped vessels for any possession. Seems too disruptive otherwise.
Wow... congratulations, you just made Possession Spirits almost totally useless in one fell swoop.
Remember, Possession Spirits can't materialize independently. That means, if they're limited to prepared vessels, then they have no way to pop in by surprise and start wrecking drek up... something Materialization Spirits can do any time, any place without needing any type of vessel.
I know, but while they are less likely to be a surprise, their attributes will be better. As is, possession spirits can take out a guard just by possession, and use the poor sap to take out his friends without the magician ever setting foot in the area. idk, I'll see how it goes. If I notice materialized spirits causing much more damage I'll reexamine possession.
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You made me wonder something. If someone gets enough hits summoning their possession spirit, can they add materialization as well as one of the 'extra powers'? I'm just not real clear on just how exclusive those things are.
Not by Missions rules. There's a short-list of optional powers in the books available to each spirit.
Don't the Missions rules disallow possession traditions anyway--at least for 'official' games?
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A bit excessive i think. If you use this you can't possess a guard during a run...
In my games, Guard would be easy to posess, since it is living entity and has its own aura. But not the sentry gun, which is remote controlled hitech drone...
Note the first three words...this aint meant to be flame war against peaople who are always right. This is what I offer as a solution which works most times at my table... ;)
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As described in vessel preparation, GM may want you to say exactly what part of the drone spirit is posessing, since whole drone is quite complex and hitech item.
I, for myself, would disallow this completely at my table, since every gear, whell, wing or engine part is is controled electronicaly and as such spirit has no chance to influence the movement of the drone, even if it is on its own, meaning Autopilot X Spirit situation. as most spirits has only 2IP in physical world, and every jumped in rigger or autopilot has 3IP, it is apparent for me, that spirit wont be able to manage override commands given by control systems.
Since there is only 1 driving action possible for each character, who will be allowed to effectively command the drone?
1. IP: Spirit tries to move left
2. IP: Autopilot overrides it
3. IP: Only autopilot is able to act
The Autopilot whould not over ride the spirt, it whould be like a metahuman mind in a possesed host able to record but the spirt has full magical control of the drone. No commands not from the spirt can move the drone unless you give the drone a metta magic feat.
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ee. Drone is controled via electric control peripherals. Spirit has no controll over those. So its like an armwrestling most time.
Hehe
Electric engine moves rotor in the turbine of LS Dalmatian (vectored thrust drone)
Spirit posess the drone and begin to wrestle over the controlls
Jumped in rigger turns off the engine
Spirit doesnt have Fly power, or spell
What happens:
a) Spirit continues to spin the rotor so drone continues to fly.
b) Drone falls down.
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A bit excessive i think. If you use this you can't possess a guard during a run...
In my games, Guard would be easy to posess, since it is living entity and has its own aura. But not the sentry gun, which is remote controlled hitech drone...
Note the first three words...this aint meant to be flame war against peaople who are always right. This is what I offer as a solution which works most times at my table... ;)
Well said like this I have no problems with it. But I understood from what follow that you need vessel preparation even for living creatures and that's why I react :)
I gladly welcome to think that they are able to interact only with enchanted items or with beings that have living aura.
I'd been thinking of just running with the house rule of only allowing prepped vessels for any possession. Seems too disruptive otherwise.
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Well said like this I have no problems with it. But I understood from what follow that you need vessel preparation even for living creatures and that's why I react :)
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ee. Vessel preparation only gives possessing Spirit +6 dices for attempt
The spirit makes an Opposed Test pitting its
Force x 2 against the vessel’s Intuition + Willpower Test (for
living vessels). For inanimate vessels, the spirit makes a Force
x 2 (vessel’s Object Resistance) Test. Apply a +6 dice pool
bonus to the spirit if the vessel has been previously prepared
(see Vessel Preparation, p. 86).
:)
IMO for the security drone/vehicle I could easily see thresshold 7, Military 9, due to interval of thresshold increase in Object resistance table :)
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In fact I like the precision upon a spirit domain in previous edition. I don't see it clealry nowadays.
To possess a weapon it seems obvious to me that your spirit must use a skill appropriate for the weapon or it's useless... Saying that, it left guardian spirit for most of them or its useless.
For a car it limits the choice to task spirit, even though I'm not sure physical or technical skills to be relevant for vehicule skills. Otherwise having a car spirit moving at the speed of the spirit can be not so bad if it has the movement power, otherwise... :'(
A solution could be to have an "enginered or cybernetical" spirit with specific rules but I think that we would be narrowing sprites this way... :-X
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In fact I like the precision upon a spirit domain in previous edition. I don't see it clealry nowadays.
To possess a weapon it seems obvious to me that your spirit must use a skill appropriate for the weapon or it's useless... Saying that, it left guardian spirit for most of them or its useless.
For a car it limits the choice to task spirit, even though I'm not sure physical or technical skills to be relevant for vehicule skills. Otherwise having a car spirit moving at the speed of the spirit can be not so bad if it has the movement power, otherwise... :'(
A solution could be to have an "enginered or cybernetical" spirit with specific rules but I think that we would be narrowing sprites this way... :-X
Actualy the spirts skill has nothing to do with it using its new boady. It does not pilot the car it is the car and moves normaly, not operating it the way a normal person does.
Think about it what is the skill to use your body there is not one, you are over thinking it and nerfing the crap out of it. The spirt has no clue how its body works unless it has the right skill but do you need to know how your body works to walk around?
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Good thing is, that while this discussion may continue for another month and we still wont know correct answer, such topics do not emerge during the actual game too often...in that case it would be reason to play a different game than Shadowrun IMO.
And when at the table, it is solved in a few soconds by GMs decision and the world goes on. Good that I have players who respect and accept my decisions in such matter and we never had to dispute about rules for more than a few minutes.
When I say No, they find another way. And when they are creative and the idea itself is fun, I still may allow a few things beyond the description of rules. Actally...I hated rele lawyers before I begin to post on Forums and find out that there is lot of details that I missed :D not that I become rules bitch now... at least I hope :)
In fact I like the precision upon a spirit domain in previous edition. I don't see it clealry nowadays.
To possess a weapon it seems obvious to me that your spirit must use a skill appropriate for the weapon or it's useless... Saying that, it left guardian spirit for most of them or its useless.
For a car it limits the choice to task spirit, even though I'm not sure physical or technical skills to be relevant for vehicule skills. Otherwise having a car spirit moving at the speed of the spirit can be not so bad if it has the movement power, otherwise... :'(
A solution could be to have an "enginered or cybernetical" spirit with specific rules but I think that we would be narrowing sprites this way... :-X
Actualy the spirts skill has nothing to do with it using its new boady. It does not pilot the car it is the car and moves normaly, not operating it the way a normal person does.
Think about it what is the skill to use your body there is not one, you are over thinking it and nerfing the crap out of it. The spirt has no clue how its body works unless it has the right skill but do you need to know how your body works to walk around?
This is easy when spirit posess living vessel: mind is set to helplessly witness the spirits action, without any chance to afect its own body. Like watching the SIM.
Well, I cannot imagine this happening to remotely controled rigger, since rigger is not posessed and nothing defends him from controling the drone while jumped in.
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Good thing is, that while this discussion may continue for another month and we still wont know correct answer, such topics do not emerge during the actual game too often...in that case it would be reason to play a different game than Shadowrun IMO.
And when at the table, it is solved in a few soconds by GMs decision and the world goes on. Good that I have players who respect and accept my decisions in such matter and we never had to dispute about rules for more than a few minutes.
When I say No, they find another way. And when they are creative and the idea itself is fun, I still may allow a few things beyond the description of rules. Actally...I hated rele lawyers before I begin to post on Forums and find out that there is lot of details that I missed :D not that I become rules bitch now... at least I hope :)
In fact I like the precision upon a spirit domain in previous edition. I don't see it clealry nowadays.
To possess a weapon it seems obvious to me that your spirit must use a skill appropriate for the weapon or it's useless... Saying that, it left guardian spirit for most of them or its useless.
For a car it limits the choice to task spirit, even though I'm not sure physical or technical skills to be relevant for vehicule skills. Otherwise having a car spirit moving at the speed of the spirit can be not so bad if it has the movement power, otherwise... :'(
A solution could be to have an "enginered or cybernetical" spirit with specific rules but I think that we would be narrowing sprites this way... :-X
Actualy the spirts skill has nothing to do with it using its new boady. It does not pilot the car it is the car and moves normaly, not operating it the way a normal person does.
Think about it what is the skill to use your body there is not one, you are over thinking it and nerfing the crap out of it. The spirt has no clue how its body works unless it has the right skill but do you need to know how your body works to walk around?
This is easy when spirit posess living vessel: mind is set to helplessly witness the spirits action, without any chance to afect its own body. Like watching the SIM.
Well, I cannot imagine this happening to remotely controled rigger, since rigger is not posessed and nothing defends him from controling the drone while jumped in.
The spirits control over the possessed object is magical and over rides any other control of it. The rigger would still be able to see threw the drones sensors but the drones body would be magically controlled in a way that renders his control over it impossible. It becomes the spirits body and its movements have nothing do with the normal control methods for it as it is a force of magic that makes the drone move while posses.
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Again, I have nothing more to say to this IMO.
Well:ů maybe one more...when you used the Body comparation
Every drone part is controled by electronics.
While Spirit is not/ strictly banned/ of using anything like electronic controll, this would make, using the body parallel, spirit posessing the drone Quadriplegic :D
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Again, I have nothing more to say to this IMO.
Well:ů maybe one more...when you used the Body comparation
Every drone part is controled by electronics.
While Spirit is not/ strictly banned/ of using anything like electronic controll, this would make, using the body parallel, spirit posessing the drone Quadriplegic :D
Normaly it is controled by electronics but drones count as vehicle if you read the secion on possestion it list a vehicle as an example that the spirt can control anything mechanicle about it, such as movement but not things only afected by electronics. As the drone has a motor and mechanicle based controls such as flaps, turning wheels changing pitch of the rotor that is how the spirt controls the drone.
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Actualy a better way of saying is electrical based impulse control is over ridden automaticly by the spirt. Weather that is bio based or tech based. The spirt moves a magical force has no nerves to send signal so when it posses you move my a magical force and all input from electrical sorces is over ridden but not stoped. That whould be why you can still be aware durign a possesion but not act.
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Or (which is easier ImO) You just say (rightfully) its Magic and it works this way
(trying to bring physical explanations to magic is...ardous & futile)
Hough !
Medicineman
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Or (which is easier ImO) You just say (rightfully) its Magic and it works this way
(trying to bring physical explanations to magic is...ardous & futile)
Hough !
Medicineman
Acutaly that is exacty what ever tradtion is the way a mage explans his magic working, and much reserch goes into magic. Magic does have some rules to it so it is partly explained.