Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Glorthoron on <06-09-12/2113:16>
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Am I right in understanding that mages or phys ads who already have a magic attribute at 6 and initiate for the first time have to spend 45 karma to get a +1 to their magic? Initiation cost of 10 for first grade, and 5x7=35 for magic of 7.
this seems pretty stupid to me.
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Yup that's right and you get 1 free metamagic (Or some GMs allow a free Power Point instead of a .metamagic).
Why do you say it's stupid?
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Am I right in understanding that mages or phys ads who already have a magic attribute at 6 and initiate for the first time have to spend 45 karma to get a +1 to their magic? Initiation cost of 10 for first grade, and 5x7=35 for magic of 7.
this seems pretty stupid to me.
I believe the first initiation is 13 at a base (I tend not to bother with group or ordeal).
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I think this is stupid, because, if I am a physad, I have to spend almost 100 (if not more) to get 2 power points.
Where as in SR1-3, you gained a magic point automatically when you initiated, thus you could get about 5-7 power points for 100 karma, and costs for physads really haven't changed. Neither have karma awards.
I've got two magic users (mage and adept) who think its a waste to be magic, when things are taht expensive.
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10 + (new Initiation grade x 3). -20% each for an Ordeal (you can bank these as you accomplish them), or an Initiatory group. It's all somewhere in the early pages of Street Magic, I'm AFB.
So yea. 13 karma, or 10 with a discount group/ordeal, or if you're lucky 8 karma with both.
Giving a free magic point ends up making mages (already OP) really OP.
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I think this is stupid, because, if I am a physad, I have to spend almost 100 (if not more) to get 2 power points.
Where as in SR1-3, you gained a magic point automatically when you initiated, thus you could get about 5-7 power points for 100 karma, and costs for physads really haven't changed. Neither have karma awards.
I've got two magic users (mage and adept) who think its a waste to be magic, when things are taht expensive.
That's pretty much my only problem with fourth. Not only do adepts have to pay a premium for their powers, but the costs for any Awakened to improve their talent are ridiculous. In my opinion, it wasn't "balancing" to make them buy their Magic rating, it was a straight up hamstring.
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10 + (new Initiation grade x 3). -20% each for an Ordeal (you can bank these as you accomplish them), or an Initiatory group. It's all somewhere in the early pages of Street Magic, I'm AFB.
So yea. 13 karma, or 10 with a discount group/ordeal, or if you're lucky 8 karma with both.
Giving a free magic point ends up making mages (already OP) really OP.
it says 10 plus grade for cost. Not 10 plus current grade or 10 plus new grade. Thanks for clearing that up.
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It being "new grade" is an assumption I guess, but everyone I've played with uses it. Everything else in SR4 is based on new score.
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Yup that's right and you get 1 free metamagic (Or some GMs allow a free Power Point instead of a .metamagic).
Why do you say it's stupid?
Has anyone tried the +1 power point instead metamagic power? Is it Over Powered or not?
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Yup that's right and you get 1 free metamagic (Or some GMs allow a free Power Point instead of a .metamagic).
Why do you say it's stupid?
Has anyone tried the +1 power point instead metamagic power? Is it Over Powered or not?
Haven't really had it come up, but it seems to me to be like a small Band-Aid on the gaping wound that is Adept nerfing.
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I don't see a problem with this. In prior editions... mages were badly overpowered (don't forget the starting with 6 magic bit)... 4th did a really good job of applying a reasonable nerf hammer to them and adepts.
Also you're forgetting about the magical loss rules.... roll 2d6.. is your magic == or higher? lose a point!
And all the other crap that initiations added dice to. IIRC: it was something like +1 dice to the astral pool per initiation... but my memory on that is very fuzzy.
On the same side, one of the things I dislike about fourth is the rank 6 skill cap and attributes being far more important than skills (easier to buff to silly stupid levels and contributing more dice to most tests than the skills themselves). Which went a long way towards giving mundanes more room to advance their own favoured schticks. At least when attributes contributed to the pool... they were limited in how many times they'd add to a test in a combat turn. even with multiple passes.
While people can complain now that mages/adepts/technoes have unlimited advancement. In practice... the karma costs get so steep that it easily keeps them in line.
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While people can complain now that mages/adepts/technoes have unlimited advancement. In practice... the karma costs get so steep that it easily keeps them in line.
I can agree with that for mages and technos, but I would never, ever play a physad in SR4 knowing I had to spend close to 100 karma to get two power points. It's far easier to go cyber with alpha, beta, and delta ware. Sure, Heal might be a little less effective, but woop deee dooo: natural healing is so quick in this game, I wouldn't worry about it at all.
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Glor: Look in the Street magic errata. There's an optional rule there that WHEN INITIATING instead of a metamagic an adept can gain a power point instead. Adepts don't have many relevant metamagics and they run out really fast, so you can quickly get to 2 PP per initiation on a much slimmer karma budget.
If you toss on the learn metamagics without initating for 15 karma... you can very quickly increase the powers on a adept without skimping on the few metamagics. (13karma for an initiation and PP, 15karma for say adept centering, 16 karma 2nd PP, 15 karma for masking...). (use your initiations for PP, then learn metamagics on the side as needed)
Note: I don't think you can combine the two... to learn PP for 15... as the one clearly says when initiating you may substitute. And the other one explicitly only allows you to learn a metamagic. I've played in one game where the GM allowed that and it was broken beyond measure. (it's bad enough that initation costs weren't increased after the change to attributes being 5x rank cost... when they used to be 3x rank cost... and initiation was 10+3x cost... now initiations are grossly cheaper than attributes which is the reverse of what it used to be).
So at that rate... first initiation is 13 karma... for 1 PP, 16 for 2nd, 19 for 3rd... etc.
You can get PP really fast and cheap for adepts at that rate!
That's using the published optional rules.
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You know...before comparing that in previous editions you got free magic for Initiating, and, personally, I agree with
the Free Powerpoint instead of Metamagic for Adept Initiates, compare what you got for that point of magic in previous
editions:
Previous Editions: Maximum force you could learn to cast(you still had to spend karma to learn new spell),
maximum spirit you could summon, new maximum to your spell casting skills(that you still had to spend
Karma to increase)
Current edition: Maximum force spell you can cast(and you can do that with ALL your spells, free), an additional
die for spellcasting,summoning, Assensing, Astral Combat, banishing, and binding tests(previous editions, remember,
you had to buy new levels of the skills to get an extra dice). When you have all those skills at 6(or 7 with Aptitude), and
specialized, that increase in Magic is the ONLY way to get more dice. You also get your maximum Force spirit upped.
However, for a Wizard, for the 75 Karma+Initiation Costs to get 8 Magic? You are getting stuff that in previous editions you
would have had to spend a comparable(with the Karma premium change that occured in the edition change) amount of
Karma, raising Sorcery to 8(15), Summoning to 8(15), plus all your spells to 8(say you knew 5 spells..IIRC, it was Spell Force/2
in Karma, plus the nuyen for the formula, so...20 Karma for 8, and 20 Karma for 7, after rounding up)..
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Has anyone tried the +1 power point instead metamagic power? Is it Over Powered or not?
I have. As both a player and a GM.
It makes adepts quite potent, because they can get additional Power Points for 8, 10, 12, 14, etc. Karma. (Why wouldn't you use a group and ordeal to reduce the cost?)
So adepts can rack up Power Points like crazy once the Karma starts rolling in.
It definitely helps rebalance Adepts. Street Sams may be able to cram a lot more into themselves, but they peak pretty early (until they get rich enough to replace with alphaware/bioware). Adepts advance way more quickly once they're in play.
I think that the optional rule works. Not only does it help with the high cost of many adept powers (relative to the essence cost of equivalent cyberware), but also the majority of metamagics are useless to adepts, making it a much needed alternative.
That's pretty much my only problem with fourth. Not only do adepts have to pay a premium for their powers, but the costs for any Awakened to improve their talent are ridiculous. In my opinion, it wasn't "balancing" to make them buy their Magic rating, it was a straight up hamstring.
I don't agree. Initiation is cheap. Insanely cheap. I can initiate (with group and ordeal) cheaper than I can buy a new skill group at 1.
It would not be balanced in the slightest to let magicians increase their magic score that cheaply. While mundane PCs were still saving up to try to get Firearms or Agility from 4 to 5, mages would already have their Magic up to 8 and be well on their way to Magic 9.
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I think this is stupid, because, if I am a physad, I have to spend almost 100 (if not more) to get 2 power points.
Talk to your GM, and ask him if you can use the optional rule to gain 1PP instead of a MetaMagic. Therefor, for that "almost 100" karma, you can get FOUR new power points (two in place of metamagics, two from Magic Rating increases).
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I use the "Powerpoints instead of metamagic" rule at my table and it works fine. Because they're not increasing their Magic rating, each individual power is still capped at 5 (soft-maxed) for the adept or 6 for the mystic adept. That's fine by me.
And for 100 Karma, surely you'd be better joining a magical group and doing a series of ordeals to be a Grade 7 initiate?
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And for 100 Karma, surely you'd be better joining a magical group and doing a series of ordeals to be a Grade 7 initiate?
Assuming you either like the stock groups for a particular character or can think of a good set-up for a magical group both mechanically and story-wise to fit your character. Otherwise, you're pretty much stuck without that one. As to the ordeals, I've never really liked those because of GMs who think that 'challenge' has to equal the entire party being near death after an encounter (which would probably end up slaughtering a single character--and since ordeals are generally done alone...), not to mention that I'd also prefer going without the ordeal to keep from taking up that much time that could be used to spotlight the other players (I hate the spotlight).
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(I realise that actually you'd be capped at Grade 6, assuming a Magic Rating of 6, but the point remains)
The only ordeal that requires risk for other PCs is the Deed one, though. You could do any of the others to avoid the risk of immediate death. And if your GM is running things as you describe, you might gently suggest they read Street Magic again...
Most of the other ordeals can be done off-screen/in downtime rather than taking the spotlight.
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Assuming the GM doesn't grandfather in the old 'metaplanar quest' ordeal. Those could seriously frag you up depending on how they were set up.
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For a good Die Hard (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4790.msg73506;topicseen#msg73506) GM, the amount of players involved won't change the outcome. Half of GMing is about cheating, in the players favor, while letting the players think they fought tooth and nail to get where they did. Some GMs will call it something more subtle like fudging or upholding story integrity or some such, but it's really just cheating when you get down to it. The only issue that occurs is when the GM is cheating against the character constantly rather than cheating for them.
I like ordeals to be done (usually) off screen just to avoid the rest of the group getting bored, but I try to make sure they remain an integral part of the characters development and that the actions taken during the ordeal do come around in game.
The 1 PP instead of a metamagic is a huge boost to adepts. It really helps them get where they need to be balancewise. I usually use it, but if I'm playing with a new group, I modify it to be 1PP instead of a metamagic on every other initiation. Otherwise, newer players tend to not even bother reading the metamagics and some can be quite useful for their builds.
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I always assumed the optional rule was to balance cost...For example assume I have a magic rating of 6, and initiate twice normally (picking up masking and adept centering and paying for the magic inrease separately making my magic 8). From there I could use the optional rule, NEVER pay to increase magic again, and gain a power point with every initiation. Sounds cost evvective to me (giving out double power points seems a bit shady to me). However, I thought (dont have access to my books...on long term loan) your were unable to have more power points than magic points. If this is true, it borks my whole view. (Have only ever PLAYED 2nd edition...ONCE when it was new(ish)).
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I hate it when the GM cheats in any way... it's one thing to restrict certain things to the 'threats' cateogry of GM only (like say infected, blood mages, other exotic things which don't really fit well as player material).
Quite another when the GM just hands you anything. There's no point in playing if the chance of failure isn't real is my opinion and how I grew up playing. Especially in a fun game among friends. Growing up we tended to have a 'stable' of characters we could pull out and have fun with... pick one and go with it... if it dies you got others (or quickly make up a new one).
This is similarly why I hate a lot of the metagaming I see sometimes... like watching players planning in advance for ghostwalker showing up in denver and how best to exploit the situation... or bug city... before it happens.
Things are obviously quite different when you're dealing with things like conventions with mostly fixed stories and keeping everything on track and within time budget. Then a little bit of GM fudging may very well be necessary. Makes me wonder... how often do convention/missions runs go off the rails and fail?! Or is the outcome pretty much predetermined barring gross incompetence?
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There's no point in playing if the chance of failure isn't real is my opinion...
The chance of failure should still be rather low--around 5% to 10%--in my opinion. Games should be played for real fun for all, not just so the GM can have fun inflicting injury or forcing characters to live worse than a fast food employee who gets hour-screwed by their managers.
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However, I thought (dont have access to my books...on long term loan) your were unable to have more power points than magic points.
Nope. You can't have more grades of Initiation than your Magic rating. You always have at least as many power points as Magic rating, after all.
So your Magic 8 adept could get as high as Grade 8 initiate but no further unless they increased their Magic.
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Aha. Ok.
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You always have at least as many power points as Magic rating, after all.
Not if you're a Magician Adept. Your Magic Rating may be 6, but you could have as few as 1 Power Point out of that ...
:)
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You always have at least as many power points as Magic rating, after all.
Not if you're a Magician Adept. Your Magic Rating may be 6, but you could have as few as 1 Power Point out of that ...
:)
GMs are encouraged not to let Mystic Adepts use less then 2 Magic Points on their Adept side iirc.
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You always have at least as many power points as Magic rating, after all.
Not if you're a Magician Adept. Your Magic Rating may be 6, but you could have as few as 1 Power Point out of that ...
:)
GMs are encouraged not to let Mystic Adepts use less then 2 Magic Points on their Adept side iirc.
Encouraged but not required. Character may have started out with a 2-1 split, and has only added Magic Rating to the Spellcasting side of the fence. Or started with a 3-3 split, has lost (and replaced) to points of magic since - with both losses taken from the Adept side.
There's plenty of reasonable and rules-legal ways to end up with a 5-1 split.
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Encouraged but not required. Character may have started out with a 2-1 split, and has only added Magic Rating to the Spellcasting side of the fence. Or started with a 3-3 split, has lost (and replaced) to points of magic since - with both losses taken from the Adept side.
There's plenty of reasonable and rules-legal ways to end up with a 5-1 split.
Yup, it ends up being the GMs call as usual.
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There's nothing in the rules even against a 0:5 or 5:0 split on a mystic adept. It's only suggested that the GM not allow players to abuse the option...
Effectively the mystic adept pays PP for sorcery... It's no different than any other adept power like mystic armor or combat sense in that aspect.
I've been known to waste 5 points on an adept just to leave open the possibility of grabbing some limited type aspected ability in the future. (be it some weak summoning ability, or the ability to cast a weak utility spell now and then).
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Effectively the mystic adept pays PP for sorcery... It's no different than any other adept power like mystic armor or combat sense in that aspect.
In SR3, it wasn't just "effectively", it was explicitly that way. And a Geasa to reduce the cost, could get you 4 Magic for sorcery, from only 3 PP. :)
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Effectively the mystic adept pays PP for sorcery... It's no different than any other adept power like mystic armor or combat sense in that aspect.
I'm pretty sure it is. A mystic adept's magic points (not power points) have to be divided between spell casting ability and physad powers. Unless you can point to the rules where they describe a mystic adept's spellcasting ability as a physad power.
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The rules say... "Characters who wish to become mystic adepts have the OPTION of splitting their Magic attributes between spellcasting and conjuring or physical abilities." p195 SR4a.
It's not forced.
Again it's only a GM suggestion to limit abuse... outside of rules chicanery some posters like Neraph like to pull. (go full mystic adept... abuse the PP when initiating for grossly reduced adept power costs... just buy metamagics cheaply for a flat 15karma each; then abuse drugs whenever you actually want to astrally project), That's abuse... a character simply making a very limited mage who can't assense/project using mystic adept instead... not really a problem. (or you could go down the route of an aspected negative quality).
I have zero problems with the PP for initiation for straight adepts... but for mystic adepts I generally wouldn't allow it. (they have no shortage of usable metamagics... unlike an adept who only has maybe 2 to 4 before he runs out). It also makes the split much less painless when they're only paying initiation costs for new power points (especially after a -40% karma cost reduction).
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The rules say... "Characters who wish to become mystic adepts have the OPTION of splitting their Magic attributes between spellcasting and conjuring or physical abilities." p195 SR4a.
It's not forced.
You are right. It is not forced. The character can dedicate his magic attribute towards powers and/or sorcery/conjuring in whatever way he sees fit. Later on you will read in the rules that power points are equal to a physad's (or mystad's) magic attribute (magic attribute dedicated to powers). Which, in turn, will mean that those mystad power points that are gained in place of metamagic ability, cannot be used to increase the sorcery/conjuring magic portion of a mystad.
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Unless you can point to the rules where they describe a mystic adept's spellcasting ability as a physad power.
AR3, where MysAds first appeared.
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Unless you can point to the rules where they describe a mystic adept's spellcasting ability as a physad power.
AR3, where MysAds first appeared.
AR3?
or do you mean SR3?
because if you do mean SR3, I think it should be pointed out that we're discussing SR4. Just because it was in SR3, doesn't mean it's now in SR4. Unless you've wandered into an SR3 discussion I missed it.
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Here is what I am presenting to my players as an option:
Everytime a Physad initiates, he or she can choose to take a power point in place of a metamagic ability (as per the optional rule); however, the maximum number of times a physad can do this is equal to his Magic Attribute (this prevents the reoccurance of the original problem: overpowered physads.).
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That limit is actually already in effect, since you can't initiate more times than your Magic Attribute.
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That limit is actually already in effect, since you can't initiate more times than your Magic Attribute.
Good point.
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AR3, where MysAds first appeared.
(Assuming you mean SR3)
Nope, they actually first turned up - although not by that name - in Awakenings: New Magic In 2057, which was an SR2 book. And there, yes, you could put Magic points towards spellchucking. That is not the case in SR4A though.
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Unless you can point to the rules where they describe a mystic adept's spellcasting ability as a physad power.
AR3, where MysAds first appeared.
AR3?
or do you mean SR3?
Yes. Unfortunate typo on my part.
because if you do mean SR3, I think it should be pointed out that we're discussing SR4. Just because it was in SR3, doesn't mean it's now in SR4. Unless you've wandered into an SR3 discussion I missed it.
So what? The question was, when did Mystic Adepts ever have an Adept power that granted them spellcasting (etc). I answered that question: "in the prior edition."
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Unless you can point to the rules where they describe a mystic adept's spellcasting ability as a physad power.
AR3, where MysAds first appeared.
AR3?
or do you mean SR3?
Yes. Unfortunate typo on my part.
because if you do mean SR3, I think it should be pointed out that we're discussing SR4. Just because it was in SR3, doesn't mean it's now in SR4. Unless you've wandered into an SR3 discussion I missed it.
So what? The question was, when did Mystic Adepts ever have an Adept power that granted them spellcasting (etc). I answered that question: "in the prior edition."
And I thought I was pedantic.
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I just thought I would point out, that if both the Optional rule of purchasing PP instead of a metamagic AND the Optional Rule of buying Metamagic for 15 Karma is in effect at the same time, the absolute maximum PP you could potentially achieve is still only Magic + Magic+ Initiate Grade, as you cannot buy more metamagics with that Optional Rule than your Magic score.
So, a Magic 8 Grade 2 Adept who spent 35 (Magic 7) and 40 (Magic 8) and 13 (Initiate 1) and 16 (Initiate 2) and 120 (Metamagic times 8) Karma could have 18 PP, with Power caps of 8, for the low, low price of 224 Karma. That isn't difficult at all, folks.
It balances fairly well until you add in Way of the Adept and Geasa, which can create some issues with certain high PP cost powers at high Ratings for low cost. If you use all the Optional Adept rules available, they can become quite powerful, but since they are so nerfed to begin with, it does not matter much. I can honestly say the most effective combat member of my party is a toss up betwen an elf adept swordsman and the troll street sam, and I use the Geasa plus Ways plus Additional PP plus buying metamagics rules together. The adept dodges better and has more armor, but the troll has more offense and almost as much defense.
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I don't think you got correct information here.
First off, when you initiate, you get a free power point if your an adept or mystic adept and choose that.
Regardless of your magic rating.
Secondly you can initiate an amount of times up to your magic rating, initiate just increases ur maximum CAPACITY.
So you can initiate 6 times if you have 6 magic rating (chargen) before you need to start raising your magic rating.
So you can get 6 more power points before u gotta start spending that ultra heavy karma, and the power point IS FREE when u complete an initiation.
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Hi terror, welcome to the forums.
Note that this thread is from 8 years ago and was somewhat dormant until now. Also note that this was for Fourth Edition, since Fifth hadn't even been released yet.