[Glorthoron]

Am I right in understanding that mages or phys ads who already have a magic attribute at 6 and initiate for the first time have to spend 45 karma to get a +1 to their magic?  Initiation cost of 10 for first grade, and 5x7=35 for magic of 7.

this seems pretty stupid to me.

[Chrona]

Yup that's right and you get 1 free metamagic (Or some GMs allow a free Power Point instead of a .metamagic).

Why do you say it's stupid?

[All4BigGuns]

Am I right in understanding that mages or phys ads who already have a magic attribute at 6 and initiate for the first time have to spend 45 karma to get a +1 to their magic?  Initiation cost of 10 for first grade, and 5x7=35 for magic of 7.

this seems pretty stupid to me.

I believe the first initiation is 13 at a base (I tend not to bother with group or ordeal).

[Glorthoron]

I think this is stupid, because, if I am a physad, I have to spend almost 100 (if not more) to get 2 power points.

Where as in SR1-3, you gained a magic point automatically when you initiated, thus you could get about 5-7 power points for 100 karma, and costs for physads really haven't changed.  Neither have karma awards.


I've got two magic users (mage and adept) who think its a waste to be magic, when things are taht expensive.

[ArkangelWinter]

10 + (new Initiation grade x 3). -20% each for an Ordeal (you can bank these as you accomplish them), or an Initiatory group.  It's all somewhere in the early pages of Street Magic, I'm AFB.

So yea. 13 karma, or 10 with a discount group/ordeal, or if you're lucky 8 karma with both.

Giving a free magic point ends up making mages (already OP) really OP.

[All4BigGuns]

I think this is stupid, because, if I am a physad, I have to spend almost 100 (if not more) to get 2 power points.

Where as in SR1-3, you gained a magic point automatically when you initiated, thus you could get about 5-7 power points for 100 karma, and costs for physads really haven't changed.  Neither have karma awards.


I've got two magic users (mage and adept) who think its a waste to be magic, when things are taht expensive.

That's pretty much my only problem with fourth. Not only do adepts have to pay a premium for their powers, but the costs for any Awakened to improve their talent are ridiculous. In my opinion, it wasn't "balancing" to make them buy their Magic rating, it was a straight up hamstring.

[Glorthoron]

10 + (new Initiation grade x 3). -20% each for an Ordeal (you can bank these as you accomplish them), or an Initiatory group.  It's all somewhere in the early pages of Street Magic, I'm AFB.

So yea. 13 karma, or 10 with a discount group/ordeal, or if you're lucky 8 karma with both.

Giving a free magic point ends up making mages (already OP) really OP.

it says 10 plus grade for cost.  Not 10 plus current grade or 10 plus new grade.  Thanks for clearing that up.

[ArkangelWinter]

It being "new grade" is an assumption I guess, but everyone I've played with uses it. Everything else in SR4 is based on new score.

[Glorthoron]

Yup that's right and you get 1 free metamagic (Or some GMs allow a free Power Point instead of a .metamagic).

Why do you say it's stupid?

Has anyone tried the +1 power point instead metamagic power?  Is it Over Powered or not?

[All4BigGuns]

Yup that's right and you get 1 free metamagic (Or some GMs allow a free Power Point instead of a .metamagic).

Why do you say it's stupid?

Has anyone tried the +1 power point instead metamagic power?  Is it Over Powered or not?

Haven't really had it come up, but it seems to me to be like a small Band-Aid on the gaping wound that is Adept nerfing.

[Falconer]

I don't see a problem with this.  In prior editions... mages were badly overpowered (don't forget the starting with 6 magic bit)... 4th did a really good job of applying a reasonable nerf hammer to them and adepts.

Also you're forgetting about the magical loss rules....   roll 2d6.. is your magic == or higher?  lose a point!

And all the other crap that initiations added dice to.  IIRC: it was something like +1 dice to the astral pool per initiation... but my memory on that is very fuzzy.


On the same side, one of the things I dislike about fourth is the rank 6 skill cap and attributes being far more important than skills (easier to buff to silly stupid levels and contributing more dice to most tests than the skills themselves).   Which went a long way towards giving mundanes more room to advance their own favoured schticks.  At least when attributes contributed to the pool... they were limited in how many times they'd add to a test in a combat turn. even with multiple passes.

While people can complain now that mages/adepts/technoes have unlimited advancement.  In practice... the karma costs get so steep that it easily keeps them in line.

[Glorthoron]

While people can complain now that mages/adepts/technoes have unlimited advancement.  In practice... the karma costs get so steep that it easily keeps them in line.

I can agree with that for mages and technos, but I would never, ever play a physad in SR4 knowing I had to spend close to 100 karma to get two power points.  It's far easier to go cyber with alpha, beta, and delta ware.  Sure, Heal might be a little less effective, but woop deee dooo: natural healing is so quick in this game, I wouldn't worry about it at all.

[Falconer]

Glor:  Look in the Street magic errata.  There's an optional rule there that WHEN INITIATING instead of a metamagic an adept can gain a power point instead.   Adepts don't have many relevant metamagics and they run out really fast, so you can quickly get to 2 PP per initiation on a much slimmer karma budget.

If you toss on the learn metamagics without initating for 15 karma... you can very quickly increase the powers on a adept without skimping on the few metamagics.   (13karma for an initiation and PP,  15karma for say adept centering,    16 karma 2nd PP, 15 karma for masking...).  (use your initiations for PP, then learn metamagics on the side as needed)

Note: I don't think you can combine the two... to learn PP for 15... as the one clearly says when initiating you may substitute.   And the other one explicitly only allows you to learn a metamagic.  I've played in one game where the GM allowed that and it was broken beyond measure.  (it's bad enough that initation costs weren't increased after the change to attributes being 5x rank cost... when they used to be 3x rank cost... and initiation was 10+3x cost... now initiations are grossly cheaper than attributes which is the reverse of what it used to be).


So at that rate... first initiation is 13 karma... for 1 PP, 16 for 2nd, 19 for 3rd... etc.

You can get PP really fast and cheap for adepts at that rate!

That's using the published optional rules.

[Mara]

You know...before comparing that in previous editions you got free magic for Initiating, and, personally, I agree with
the Free Powerpoint instead of Metamagic for Adept Initiates, compare what you got for that  point of magic in previous
editions:

Previous Editions: Maximum force you could learn to cast(you still had to spend karma to learn new spell),
    maximum spirit you could summon, new maximum to your spell casting skills(that you still had to spend
    Karma to increase)

Current edition: Maximum force spell you can cast(and you can do that with ALL your spells, free), an additional
    die for spellcasting,summoning, Assensing, Astral Combat, banishing, and binding tests(previous editions, remember,
    you had to buy new levels of the skills to get an extra dice). When you have all those skills at 6(or 7 with Aptitude), and
    specialized, that increase in Magic is the ONLY way to get more dice. You also get your maximum Force spirit upped.
    However, for a Wizard, for the 75 Karma+Initiation Costs to get 8 Magic? You are getting stuff that in previous editions you
    would have had to spend a comparable(with the Karma premium change that occured in the edition change) amount of
    Karma, raising Sorcery to 8(15), Summoning to 8(15), plus all your spells to 8(say you knew 5 spells..IIRC, it was Spell Force/2
    in Karma, plus the nuyen for the formula, so...20 Karma for 8, and 20 Karma for 7, after rounding up)..

[TheNarrator]

Has anyone tried the +1 power point instead metamagic power?  Is it Over Powered or not?

I have. As both a player and a GM.

It makes adepts quite potent, because they can get additional Power Points for 8, 10, 12, 14, etc. Karma. (Why wouldn't you use a group and ordeal to reduce the cost?)

So adepts can rack up Power Points like crazy once the Karma starts rolling in.

It definitely helps rebalance Adepts. Street Sams may be able to cram a lot more into themselves, but they peak pretty early (until they get rich enough to replace with alphaware/bioware). Adepts advance way more quickly once they're in play.

I think that the optional rule works. Not only does it help with the high cost of many adept powers (relative to the essence cost of equivalent cyberware), but also the majority of metamagics are useless to adepts, making it a much needed alternative.

That's pretty much my only problem with fourth. Not only do adepts have to pay a premium for their powers, but the costs for any Awakened to improve their talent are ridiculous. In my opinion, it wasn't "balancing" to make them buy their Magic rating, it was a straight up hamstring.

I don't agree. Initiation is cheap. Insanely cheap. I can initiate (with group and ordeal) cheaper than I can buy a new skill group at 1.

It would not be balanced in the slightest to let magicians increase their magic score that cheaply. While mundane PCs were still saving up to try to get Firearms or Agility from 4 to 5, mages would already have their Magic up to 8 and be well on their way to Magic 9.