Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: JustADude on <12-09-12/0458:05>
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So, I was thinking on some of the recent discussion on Adepts and I came up with what might be a quick & simple fix for the perceived over-pricing of their Power Points:
Quite simply put, the idea is to remove the Magic Rating as "thing" on the sheets of Physical Adepts entirely. Instead, one would just have a Power Point Rating, bought directly. Use the standard Attribute BP pricing at CGen, but afterward the cost is reduced to a flat 15 Karma per Power Point. In all other ways, such as for Background Count, PP Rating would still count as Magic.
Ratings for individual powers are capped at Essence + Initiation of Physical Adepts.
Mystic Adepts still split Magic between Casting & PP same as always at CGen, but can buy PP for 15 Karma afterward just like Physical Adepts, with the ranks capped at Adept Magic + Initiation.
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Any thoughts or comments? Glaring holes I've forgotten to account for?
I'm writing this on the spur of the moment after too much caffeine and not enough sleep, so please be kind.
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ISTR that's how it worked in SR3, no?
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My gut reaction (mind you, just my gut) is that this needlessly overcomplicates things where they don't need to be overcomplicated.
Granted, this is Shadowrun, which had never been about being simple. Also, again, just my gut, plus YMMV, plus etc.
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My gut reaction (mind you, just my gut) is that this needlessly overcomplicates things where they don't need to be overcomplicated.
Granted, this is Shadowrun, which had never been about being simple. Also, again, just my gut, plus YMMV, plus etc.
Honest question here... how is it over-complicated? I'm actually trying to trim out complications, to make things more streamlined.
Currently Adepts have to jump through all sorts of hoops to raise their Magic and get more PP, at an escalating cost that quickly reaches a point of diminishing return where you're quickly paying 50+ Karma for a single PP unless you use the PP-For-A-Metamagic optional rule. Under my suggested alterations, Adepts would just buy PP directly at a flat rate and get on with their life, the way Sammies just buy new Cyberware and get one with theirs.
The only other change, switching how power caps are calculated, is because the old formula (Magic + Initiate) doesn't work if you remove the Magic rating... and Essence + Initiate is the formula you use to calculate your Magic Cap to begin with.
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What do you do about powers that use magic in their pools like attribute boost etc...
Also what is wrong with just using the optional rules and allowing power points
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What do you do about powers that use magic in their pools like attribute boost etc...
Also what is wrong with just using the optional rules and allowing power points
I think it would be wise to use the optional rule of "Power Point-for-Metamagic" as well as this rule at the same time.
As to the first part, I'd imagine one would just use their Power Point total in the place of Magic.
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JAD: I see your intent but it needlessly changes a system which isn't all that broken. There are far too many things in the system which key off Magic in awakened and magical entities. It's the one quality which they all have and you remove that. (Enchanting, wards, assensing, magic linked adept powers, background counts, magic loss etc. big list).
My recommendation to others is to allow Adepts (not mystic adepts though) to use the optional rule to gain PP instead of metamagics while initiating. They can also use 15karma here and there to pickup the oddball metamagic they wish to know now and then (adept centering, masking, and the like...). I've found this works extremely well given the extremely low cost of initiating compared to magic... while still forcing them to raise magic occasionally.
Reasons:
I've played in a game where adepts were permitted to buy metamagics for raw 15pp... then combine it with the other optional rule to buy power points instead of initiating WHEN INITiATING. My reason for emphasis is that the optional rule clearly states WHEN INITITiATING an adept (but not necessarily mystic adept) may obtain a PP instead of a metamagic. The other rule deals only with learning metamagics and has nothing to do with PP's. And this was all written long before the SR4a karma cost changes to attributes and karma awards (remember karma costs went up, but book karma awards were also increased).
It was a disaster. There were FAR FAR too many power points floating around. Especially since Attribute at 5x cost couldn't hold a candle to free PP with initiation at the much lower initiation costs (remember initiating used to always be much more expensive than raising magic... attribute costs changed that). The 15 karma was written for the old costs and didn't reflect changes in buying PP. All the adepts ended up running round with maximum initiations, and maximum known 'metamagics' and low magic scores. It did not work well AT ALL.
Remember the rules allowed for Maximum Initiations == Magic, Maximum magic == initiations + essence, Maximum known metamagics (PP's) of magic + initiations! So Mag5, initiate 5, was packing 15PP easily.
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JAD: I see your intent but it needlessly changes a system which isn't all that broken.
Agreed, the notion that this is something that needs fixing seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to RP-elitism and the "I know how to play this game, you don't." stance made by RP-elitists.
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No... this is some way... unbalance to the rules... while a human has to pay 25 karma to raise his strength from 4 to 5...
A Mystic Adept Troll can raise his strength from 9 to 10 for 15*0.75 Karma or from 14 to 15 for 15*1.5 karma.
Also you are really messing with the magic background count rules...
A Mystic Adept with Magic 1 and an additional point of power from initiation looses all his magic from a background count of 1 and can't acces any of his powers...
A Mystic Adept by your rules change would just have 2 power points no associated magic rating and would loose only 1 power point from a background count of 1 still having acces to 1 point.
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SR3 did something similar in the Core book before it was covered by initiation in the magic book.
I'm fairly certain the cost was considerably more though, and it would need to be to keep things balanced honestly. 20-25 karma would be more in line.
No... this is some way... unbalance to the rules... while a human has to pay 25 karma to raise his strength from 4 to 5...
A Mystic Adept Troll can raise his strength from 9 to 10 for 15*0.75 Karma or from 14 to 15 for 15*1.5 karma.
No, the human has to pay 25 karma to raise a natural strength from a 4 to a 5. He'd be paying 15*.75 karma to go from 4 to 5 if doing it by magic. Alternatively, he could pay 7k and .2 essence to do it through bioware or less money and more essence to do it with cyberware.
Unnaturally raising your attribute is cheaper than naturally raising the attribute in most cases already.
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There's actually a slightly simpler solution that's mostly already in the rules (and is fully allowed by Chumer) relying on 2 explicit points:
1: you can choose to gain an additional PP when initiating instead of gaining a metamagic
2: you can purchase extra metamagics (up to your magic + initiation grade total, I believe) for 15 Karma
So, you just let adepts use those 15 Karma metamagics AS PP. That gives you a maximum PP cap = (2 x Magic) + Initiate Grade - Metamagics
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Valavaern:
The two rules are *NOT* compatible. One explicitly states WHEN INITIATING. The other only allows learning metamagics and metamagics only.
I don't know what chummer does, but it's part of it's house rule suite if so.
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Valavaern:
The two rules are *NOT* compatible. One explicitly states WHEN INITIATING. The other only allows learning metamagics and metamagics only.
I don't know what chummer does, but it's part of it's house rule suite if so.
It's a glitch. It adds "Additional PP" as a meta-magic, and fails to differentiate it from the others when buying Metamagics with Karma.
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Valavaern:
The two rules are *NOT* compatible. One explicitly states WHEN INITIATING. The other only allows learning metamagics and metamagics only.
I don't know what chummer does, but it's part of it's house rule suite if so.
I said it's mostly already in the rules. What I'm suggesting is that, instead of trying to tinker with new mechanics, just slightly tinker with what's already there; if you house-rule the two points to BE compatible, it solves the 'problem'. And as JAD pointed out, the way Chumer coded the Initiating for PP, it's already possible to do in that program.
On a slight tangent, If you were doing this, I'd allow Free Spirits to buy additional 'PP' in the same manner.
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Why not simply cap aditional PP via Metamagic at the Initiation grade?
That would mostly combine those two, without further complication
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Valavaern:
The two rules are *NOT* compatible. One explicitly states WHEN INITIATING. The other only allows learning metamagics and metamagics only.
This is your opinion, and even if some others on this forum share it, that doesn't make it "true fact". You can interpret it however you want, but you don't have the right to tell other people they're interpreting it "wrong".
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Yes I do... when the wording of each is clearly written. Then again you keep going into a rules forum whose purpose is to discuss and argue rules and stating that all the rules should be ignored so you can play my little pony.
While at the same time performing thread necromancy on something that's been idle for ages just to call me out for having the temerity to argue rules in a rules forum!
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Simmer down, both of you.
Back to the thread topic, I think that using the "trade metamagic for additional PP/magic point" works well enough for Adepts, Mystic Adepts, and Magicians. My only concern with flipping how Adepts have magic is - while this works for them - you have Mystic Adepts that have an innate split that would be harder to balance, and I sense that this would break down as characters leveled up. Adepts do have trouble keeping up due to the prices and how they progress, but unless you're in a high karma game isn't that the same case with Magicians? And what about cybered characters who can't find a black clinic to upgrade to deltaware while Awakened can just use all that universally-applicable karma?
It might not be as bad as my concerns, with this being a tool that they'd have that might not remove parity with augmented characters or magicians, but balance with those trying to keep up are my concerns for balance in progression.
Do any of you think the "pp/magic point instead of metamagic when initiating" would be a good change from the current RAW? Not enough? Why?
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Mithlas... I'll largely repeat my earlier point....
It's not a problem at all for pure adepts. Pure adepts only have a bare handful of useful metamagics to start with... and quickly run out. So the first few initiations are hard picks... do I get adept centering or an extra PP... that kind of thing. But after 3 or 4... there's normally few to none left of interest to the character. The max rating of their abilities is still capped by magic, a 1 or 2 point BGC doesn't completely screw things up... (though once initiate grade gets close to the cap of magic, you can run into cases of adepts losing 2 PP per point of BGC as they lose the initiation and magic point (magic caps initiate grade)).
The problem comes with mystic adepts... because they have access to ALL the metamagics both mage only and adept only. And there's always relevant and useful metamagics for them to take. You effectively allow them to raise their adept powers on the cheap while also raising their full spellcasting magic, and they can then buy the metamagics they like for a bargain basement flat 15karma cost each.
Here's why I say this is problematic... it deals with the karma costs. Initiation costs and the flat 15karma to buy a metamagic are all from SR4 with the old karma costs. They weren't changed or even given any thought when the SR4a attribute costs were made... (remember SR4a increased attribute costs... but also increased karma awards so everything which had it's cost kept the same got cheaper... while attributes despite the cost increase stayed roughly the same. Call it karma inflation.
Initiation costs are far lower than raising magic scores generally... (10+3x new initiate grade... with -20% group, and -20% more for an ordeal). This flipped things 180 from what they used to be... it used to be more expensive to initiate than raise magic in most cases. This provides a nice cheap way for pure adepts to buy PP's while still subjecting those powers to the max rating == magic limitation. Generally this results in adepts buying more varied powers than simply dumping all their points into one or two.
Metamagics same deal... you can know a maximum number of metamagics of initiation + magic... which is normally not an issue... For most magicians... they want the initiate grades badly so buying metamagics without the free initiate grade at the same time is a bad deal... they almost never make use of the buy for 15karma metamagic. But for mystic adepts as soon as you provide the alternate method to obtain cheap PP... suddenly this becomes a big deal. Because for the cost of raising their basic magic score, they can buy the reduced cost PP along with the increase in initiate grade, still get the metamagic... and pay less than if they had paid to raise their raw magic score from 5->6 in the deal.. And still have room to pay to raise their magic score to boot. Effectively they're only paying 15karma more than a full mage per point of magic... and getting the full adept powers to boot.
My opinion is based on playing an actual extended campaign where mystic adepts were allowed this as well... it was a travesty... the pure adepts were grumbling because they felt chronically underpowered and supporting actors... while the mystic adepts were functioning more or less as full magicians while having few to no problems with their adept powers and even using spells in place of adept powers with regularity. And the magicians were grumbling about all the freebie PP's flying around on the cheap while they were stuck paying full price for magic. The whole thing left a bad taste in everyones mouth except the mystic adepts who were having a field day since they'd essentially broken their normal systemic limits.
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The problem comes with mystic adepts... because they have access to ALL the metamagics both mage only and adept only. And there's always relevant and useful metamagics for them to take. You effectively allow them to raise their adept powers on the cheap while also raising their full spellcasting magic, and they can then buy the metamagics they like for a bargain basement flat 15karma cost each.
Here's why I say this is problematic. karma costs. They weren't changed or even given any thought when the SR4a attribute costs were made.
Initiation costs are far lower than raising magic scores generally.
Your points are valid, but on this detail I feel the need to point out that, as the system currently stands, initiation doesn't get you extra magic points or PP. It only raises your maximum magic stat, and then you have to spend additional karma. That becomes very steep very quickly, and I think the issue here is that Adepts (and maybe magicians) can't keep up with a cybered street sam who's found a black clinic.
This provides a nice cheap way for pure adepts to buy PP's while still subjecting those powers to the max rating == magic limitation. Generally this results in adepts buying more varied powers *and* simply dumping all their points into one or two.
You still have that limitation of max rating=magic, so unless you spend that steep cost of bumping up magic also then you don't have "instant superman, just add initiate". Some very respectably powerful characters possibly, but the same goes to Sam with his black clinic, and he doesn't have to wait to have enough karma. With what you're describing of initiating and buying PPs, it seems that (like with active skills), you'd run into a ceiling and have to diversify, which I do not see as a bad thing. I also figure it's inevitable that somebody's going to find a favourite adept power and dump PP into that before they start diversifying. That's where having a gentleman's agreement or using Mirikon's phone book comes in.
you can know a maximum number of metamagics of initiation + magic
I thought the limit was based on your initiations. I looked up on S4A 198, but it doesn't say specifically. I did find it in SM p52, which I think is a little overly generous. Maybe they'll reduce it to Initiate+half magic or something in 5E. As it is it does allow very low-initiates to gain an extremely wide power, though you've also got to find a teacher for those metamagics, which the GM should not be easy with.
Magicians want the initiate grades badly so buying metamagics without the free initiate grade at the same time is a bad deal. they almost never make use of the buy for 15karma metamagic. But for mystic adepts as soon as you provide the alternate method to obtain cheap PP. suddenly this becomes a big deal. Because for the cost of raising their basic magic score, they can buy the reduced cost PP along with the increase in initiate grade, still get the metamagic. and pay less than if they had paid to raise their raw magic score from 5->6 in the deal. And still have room to pay to raise their magic score to boot
I have agreed with your points up until here, and this is where I think we disagree.
First, I will acknowledge that it is cheaper to raise initiation, with cost=10+(grade*3). For the third initiation, that's 19 karma (keeping in mind that you've already spent 29 karma just on initiation, while buying magic from 5>6 is 30 karma). Three potential metamagics without having dipped into any funny rules. However, this setup is the baseline for magicians and works quite well for them. Adepts have very different function, and so there's no need to lock them onto the same railroad tracks. It seems that neither of us think that this or most other "anti-nerf" optional rules would hurt them or unduly unbalance them, so let's set them on a shelf. Mystic Adepts are indeed a stickier problem because they have the potential capability of magicians - with all of the required karma costs that involved, which would not be insignificant - and also are trying to keep up at least partially with adepts, who are spending their points on other things. The way I see it (and possibly others like JustADude before), they're trying to take the same handful of karma and throw it more directions.
Effectively they're only paying 15karma more than a full mage per point of magic and getting the full adept powers to boot
It's not like they're geting them for free. 10+(grade*3) just to initiate [same as the others] with 15 karma for metamagics [many of which are dependent on good initiate grade for effectiveness, as you already pointed out with magicians], and on top of that there's 15 karma for 1 additional power point. At grade 1, that's 43 karma. There wasn't a limit stated, which might be your concern, but just maximum PP=magic+initiate grade would be enough. That way they're either paying for initiation or for magic, both of which are expensive (buying up to grade 10 is 265 karma, without any other costs tacked on). As long as you keep the separation for Magic used for Adept powers are not available for spellcasting, I don't see mystic adepts being all that easily overpowered, especially because Adepts are only using their PPs for becoming urban ninjas and Magicians are only using their karma to initiate and boost magic. If you want to drop the "15 karma for a new metamagic (not including one potentially gained during initiation)" would that smooth things out for Mystic Adepts? Keep a limit that on initiating you can only go for either a metamagic or an extra PP and you won't have übermystics playing ultimate magicians and ultimate adepts. They'll have to pick being very good at one, or moderate at both.
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Okay... here's the problem with your math. You're forgetting the initiation discounts. With a group and an ordeal... reduce that karma cost by 40%! Even the first initiation is cheaper after that than raising Magic from 1->2.
As for the second... what does a magician do...
He pays for the initiation (with discount)... he gets +initiate and a metamagic. He buys magic. Once you start hitting magic 6,7,8 this is a very costly thing. He may buy a few initiations before bothering to raise magic since he very much wants the initiate grades and metamagics which come with them... (invoking, centering, masking, extended masking, shielding, cleansing... etc. all things which help a lot and all which get stronger benefits each time they initiate).
What does a mystic adept do... Almost exactly the same thing... even down to probably ignoring buying more magic the first few times. Though he'll favor initiations even more than the mage... since he has more useful things to spend karma on more efficiently and need to raise expensive magic even less.
He pays for the initiation (with discount)... he gets +initiate and a Power point (better than a metamagic!). He buys Magic. He then pays a mere 15karma extra and also gets his metamagic. So for a mere 15karma more.. .he's got *2* points worth of magic (magic and a pp) and his metamagic. He always has something 'cheap' to buy....
Pure adepts... well they run out of metamagics... so that bargain I just put above runs out... instead they tend to initiate a lot for PP's until their abilities tend to cap out and they need to raise magic more.
If you ignore the wording of the two optional rules and allow them to be combined it gets even worse... as now you have a cheap 15karma PP. At the time of writing... karma was a lot more expensive as well... (remember SR4a increased karma awards roughly 25-50%). I'm only pointing this out as it's an example of a law of unintended consequences... at time of it's writing... this was equivalent to buying magic 4->5... not of magic 2->3.
Granted all this is a thought experiment until you've actually played with it... but my experience of above (with the 15karma PP's). Was that street sams got royally hosed... the game went full blown magic run.... The only thing magicians could do better than mystic adepts was maybe 1 or 2 point higher magic score... but lacked all the freebie sustained powers of the mystic adepts. So their only real advantage was being able to astrally project... that was their only advantage. Even that was taken away when one of the two mystic adepts got invoking and started using the astral gateway power regularly.
So just take my tale as cautionary and not merely a nebulous... here there be dragons on a map.
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Even with all discounts involved, Initiate Grade 10 still costs a total of 132 Karma (If rounding up at.5 or more and rounding down at .4 or less), more than that if you ALWAYS round up.
Slight subject oddity, but Isn't the absolute maximum possible Initiation Grade 6? Considering that the max rating is Magic Attribute plus Initiate grade and the max Magic attribute for all characters is 6, is that the total? Does the number of initiate grades you may take rise when you pay for the higher maximum? For example, if I pay for a 7 magic attribute after purchasing Initiate Grade 1, would my maximum possible number of initiate grades rise by one (to 7 respectively)?
Also would the optional rule of raising an attribute to 1.5X maximum normal by paying extra karma apply to the Magic Attribute (old option, may or may not be valid here).
Where is the rule found that you can pay 15 karma for Power Points. I remember it from an older edition but haven't seen it in 4th edition.
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Even with all discounts involved, Initiate Grade 10 still costs a total of 132 Karma (If rounding up at.5 or more and rounding down at .4 or less), more than that if you ALWAYS round up.
Slight subject oddity, but Isn't the absolute maximum possible Initiation Grade 6? Considering that the max rating is Magic Attribute plus Initiate grade and the max Magic attribute for all characters is 6, is that the total? Does the number of initiate grades you may take rise when you pay for the higher maximum? For example, if I pay for a 7 magic attribute after purchasing Initiate Grade 1, would my maximum possible number of initiate grades rise by one (to 7 respectively)?
Also would the optional rule of raising an attribute to 1.5X maximum normal by paying extra karma apply to the Magic Attribute (old option, may or may not be valid here).
Where is the rule found that you can pay 15 karma for Power Points. I remember it from an older edition but haven't seen it in 4th edition.
First: Max Magic is Essence + Initiate Grade, always. Raising your Magic increases your Initiation cap, and this loop can be repeated infinitely with infinite Karma.
As for the 15 Karma for a Power Point thing, that's a combination of 2 optional rules - one that lets adepts take a power point in place of a metamagic when initiating, and one that lets you buy metamagic for 15 Karma. Some people have argued that these two optional rules are incompatible as written (technically, there is grounds for the GM to rule as such).
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Thank you for the clarification. With the 15 karma would it be overpowering to buy Power points that way instead of metamagic abilities? It seems that this would be the only Viable way for a Physical Adept to gains their abilities after awhile.
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I would be inclined to say it seems reasonable - most of those who say nay appear to be pointing to the fact that theoretically Awakened don't have a limit because they can theoretically keep initiating, increasing Magic, and going from there. However, almost no games would go on that long, and many games aren't that free with karma to allow that. If you're doing one or the other, then there's not the power-imbalance of doing both, which really isn't that easy to sustain anyway.