[JustADude]

So, I was thinking on some of the recent discussion on Adepts and I came up with what might be a quick & simple fix for the perceived over-pricing of their Power Points:

Quite simply put, the idea is to remove the Magic Rating as "thing" on the sheets of Physical Adepts entirely. Instead, one would just have a Power Point Rating, bought directly. Use the standard Attribute BP pricing at CGen, but afterward the cost is reduced to a flat 15 Karma per Power Point. In all other ways, such as for Background Count, PP Rating would still count as Magic.

Ratings for individual powers are capped at Essence + Initiation of Physical Adepts.

Mystic Adepts still split Magic between Casting & PP same as always at CGen, but can buy PP for 15 Karma afterward just like Physical Adepts, with the ranks capped at Adept Magic + Initiation.

---   ---   ---

Any thoughts or comments? Glaring holes I've forgotten to account for?

I'm writing this on the spur of the moment after too much caffeine and not enough sleep, so please be kind.

[raggedhalo]

ISTR that's how it worked in SR3, no?

[Rikoshi]

My gut reaction (mind you, just my gut) is that this needlessly overcomplicates things where they don't need to be overcomplicated.

Granted, this is Shadowrun, which had never been about being simple.  Also, again, just my gut, plus YMMV, plus etc.

[JustADude]

My gut reaction (mind you, just my gut) is that this needlessly overcomplicates things where they don't need to be overcomplicated.

Granted, this is Shadowrun, which had never been about being simple.  Also, again, just my gut, plus YMMV, plus etc.

Honest question here... how is it over-complicated? I'm actually trying to trim out complications, to make things more streamlined.

Currently Adepts have to jump through all sorts of hoops to raise their Magic and get more PP, at an escalating cost that quickly reaches a point of diminishing return where you're quickly paying 50+ Karma for a single PP unless you use the PP-For-A-Metamagic optional rule. Under my suggested alterations, Adepts would just buy PP directly at a flat rate and get on with their life, the way Sammies just buy new Cyberware and get one with theirs.

The only other change, switching how power caps are calculated, is because the old formula (Magic + Initiate) doesn't work if you remove the Magic rating... and Essence + Initiate is the formula you use to calculate your Magic Cap to begin with.

[cr4kp0t]

What do you do about powers that use magic in their pools like attribute boost etc... 

Also what is wrong with just using the optional rules and allowing power points

[All4BigGuns]

What do you do about powers that use magic in their pools like attribute boost etc... 

Also what is wrong with just using the optional rules and allowing power points

I think it would be wise to use the optional rule of "Power Point-for-Metamagic" as well as this rule at the same time.

As to the first part, I'd imagine one would just use their Power Point total in the place of Magic.

[Falconer]

JAD: I see your intent but it needlessly changes a system which isn't all that broken.  There are far too many things in the system which key off Magic in awakened and magical entities.   It's the one quality which they all have and you remove that.   (Enchanting, wards, assensing, magic linked adept powers, background counts, magic loss etc. big list).

My recommendation to others is to allow Adepts (not mystic adepts though) to use the optional rule to gain PP instead of metamagics while initiating.   They can also use 15karma here and there to pickup the oddball metamagic they wish to know now and then (adept centering, masking, and the like...).   I've found this works extremely well given the extremely low cost of initiating compared to magic... while still forcing them to raise magic occasionally.


Reasons:
I've played in a game where adepts were permitted to buy metamagics for raw 15pp... then combine it with the other optional rule to buy power points instead of initiating WHEN INITiATING.  My reason for emphasis is that the optional rule clearly states WHEN INITITiATING an adept (but not necessarily mystic adept) may obtain a PP instead of a metamagic.  The other rule deals only with learning metamagics and has nothing to do with PP's.  And this was all written long before the SR4a karma cost changes to attributes and karma awards (remember karma costs went up, but book karma awards were also increased).

It was a disaster.   There were FAR FAR too many power points floating around.   Especially since Attribute at 5x cost couldn't hold a candle to free PP with initiation at the much lower initiation costs (remember initiating used to always be much more expensive than raising magic... attribute costs changed that).  The 15 karma was written for the old costs and didn't reflect changes in buying PP.  All the adepts ended up running round with maximum initiations, and maximum known 'metamagics' and low magic scores.  It did not work well AT ALL.

Remember the rules allowed for Maximum Initiations == Magic, Maximum magic == initiations + essence, Maximum known metamagics (PP's) of magic + initiations!   So Mag5, initiate 5, was packing 15PP easily.

[emsquared]

JAD: I see your intent but it needlessly changes a system which isn't all that broken.

Agreed, the notion that this is something that needs fixing seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to RP-elitism and the "I know how to play this game, you don't." stance made by RP-elitists.

[Thrass]

No... this is some way... unbalance to the rules... while a human has to pay 25 karma to raise his strength from 4 to 5...

A Mystic Adept Troll can raise his strength from 9 to 10 for 15*0.75 Karma or from 14 to 15 for 15*1.5 karma.

Also you are really messing with the magic background count rules...
A Mystic Adept with Magic 1 and an additional point of power from initiation looses all his magic from a background count of 1 and can't acces any of his powers...
A Mystic Adept by your rules change would just have 2 power points no associated magic rating and would loose only 1 power point from a background count of 1 still having acces to 1 point.

[WellsIDidIt]

SR3 did something similar in the Core book before it was covered by initiation in the magic book.

I'm fairly certain the cost was considerably more though, and it would need to be to keep things balanced honestly. 20-25 karma would be more in line.

No... this is some way... unbalance to the rules... while a human has to pay 25 karma to raise his strength from 4 to 5...

A Mystic Adept Troll can raise his strength from 9 to 10 for 15*0.75 Karma or from 14 to 15 for 15*1.5 karma.

No, the human has to pay 25 karma to raise a natural strength from a 4 to a 5. He'd be paying 15*.75 karma to go from 4 to 5 if doing it by magic. Alternatively, he could pay 7k and .2 essence to do it through bioware or less money and more essence to do it with cyberware.

Unnaturally raising your attribute is cheaper than naturally raising the attribute in most cases already.

[valavaern]

There's actually a slightly simpler solution that's mostly already in the rules (and is fully allowed by Chumer) relying on 2 explicit points:
1: you can choose to gain an additional PP when initiating instead of gaining a metamagic
2: you can purchase extra metamagics (up to your magic + initiation grade total, I believe) for 15 Karma

So, you just let adepts use those 15 Karma metamagics AS PP.  That gives you a maximum PP cap = (2 x Magic) + Initiate Grade - Metamagics

[Falconer]

Valavaern:
The two rules are *NOT* compatible.   One explicitly states WHEN INITIATING.   The other only allows learning metamagics and metamagics only.

I don't know what chummer does, but it's part of it's house rule suite if so.

[JustADude]

Valavaern:
The two rules are *NOT* compatible.   One explicitly states WHEN INITIATING.   The other only allows learning metamagics and metamagics only.

I don't know what chummer does, but it's part of it's house rule suite if so.

It's a glitch. It adds "Additional PP" as a meta-magic, and fails to differentiate it from the others when buying Metamagics with Karma.

[valavaern]

Valavaern:
The two rules are *NOT* compatible.   One explicitly states WHEN INITIATING.   The other only allows learning metamagics and metamagics only.

I don't know what chummer does, but it's part of it's house rule suite if so.

I said it's mostly already in the rules.  What I'm suggesting is that, instead of trying to tinker with new mechanics, just slightly tinker with what's already there; if you house-rule the two points to BE compatible, it solves the 'problem'.  And as JAD pointed out, the way Chumer coded the Initiating for PP, it's already possible to do in that program.

On a slight tangent, If you were doing this, I'd allow Free Spirits to buy additional 'PP' in the same manner.

[Ghostblade]

Why not simply cap aditional PP via Metamagic at the Initiation grade?
That would mostly combine those two, without further complication