Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Lemmy Rigwell on <01-09-13/0945:56>
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Hello chummers,
about 1.5 years ago I started to be a GM at shadowrun (having played and Gm'ed several RPGs about 10 years ago).
However I am having difiiculties with my group of players. They are all rather smart and intelligent people in real life (around the age of 30), but as soon as the character sheets are on the table they all starting to behave like 8-year old sociopaths with the common sense of a fish (imho). :o
A while back I already had a satdown with them and they indicated having some problems with adapting to the game world, comparing it too much to our real life. So we decided to insert more fluff into the game, more descriptions, create even more RP oppertunities to deal with this problem. This helped some for the sociopath bit. However, even though I am trying my best to insert more shadowbuisiness, descriptions and NPC character motivations into the game, they still act with the common sense of a fish.* If I would enforce the grim reality of the shadowrun setting correctly, their actions would lead to a party wipe, or at least major setbacks almost every session.
However, this punishing aproach would probably ruin the game rather quickly. Even now they sometimes think I am doing stuff on purpose to hurt them, while it is just a logical response on the actions they do (like sending KE, when they are walking with armors and assault rifles in high end neighbourhoods (after being warned of course)). I am not a vengefull GM and I have no objections to a pink mohawk approach. However at this pace, I don't know how long I am willing to spend all the time prepping for detailed shadowrun stories and descriptions.
Has anyone have an idea how I can educate my players on the setting and improve on common sense, whithout giving the impression of being a vengefull GM?
*Example on common sense: My players were at the loading dock of a warehouse. They opened the maglock on the door without setting of the alarms. As they opened the door the decided they wanted some light inside (even though they all have at least low-light vision). Fair enough. They decided that the best way to get light inside was to hoist one of the players motorcycles onto the loading bay and use its headlight to enlighten the room. :o Only one example of many
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Sometimes a TPK can be a valuable learning experience. Especially if they're doing crazy things like that. I'd also encourage them to read some of the fiction, both the old novels, and the new stuff. Even just reading the short fiction pieces in the books is a good deal for getting a feel for the setting.
Also make sure you both have the same idea of the setting. From what it sounds like, you want a Black Trenchcoat style game, and they want a Pink Mohawk style game.
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Sounds like the lessons of a TPK might be lost on them, just yet.
I would say the best thing you can do is proceed just as you have. Give them pink Mohawk missions so they can, if nothing else, get a little bit of that out of their system. Go a little easy on them for consequences. Incrementally introduce "reality" to them AND how to deal with it. Have a trusted contact tell them they're getting too hot. Have a P.I. start following them, and make them aware/suspicious of it. Have In-character NPCs point out the prevalence of cameras and SIN, and their commlinks interactions with everything. Throw them in jail for a few days before they get off due to inconclusive evidence, fine them for unlicensed gear, confiscate something (but not everything). Educate them with grace, then - if they continue to act the fools - smite them, and smite them all. Then tell them why and what they need to do to get along in the world.
Then you all need to evaluate whether you are playing the right type of campaign. And maybe this should be the first step really. You could just GM a para-military style campaign where the trappings of society isn't involved.
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I think the only lesson a TPK teaches is "don't bother with doing a back story, the character will just die soon anyway".
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I think the only lesson a TPK teaches is "don't bother with doing a back story, the character will just die soon anyway".
That's where you're wrong, Guns. As someone who's both played and GMed through TPKs, I can say with some confidence that what we learned was, simply put, "Don't be stupid." From TPKs, you learn the benefits of planning, and knowing when to run away. You also learn why you should not pick fights with multiple giants when you're a level 6 wizard. Now, let us be clear, going out to deliberately TPK them is wrong. But taking off the kiddie gloves, and letting them experience a TPK as the natural result of their actions? That teaches them not to be idiots.
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Think of it that way if you want, but until I see with my own experience such, I'll continue carrying on this way.
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Or just have an almost TPK.
The party is all down, on the verge of being dominated/stompytimed by the enemy group when (fortuitously) some great NPC group swoops down and saves them, leaving them in a hospital (expensive, and they'll ask a lot of... interesting questions) with a "We won't be there to save you next time, HINT HINT" note.
Having all their characters be on the verge of vanishing due to their poor planning hopefully would communicate the message without actually having to scrap their characters and write up new ones.
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Or just have an almost TPK.
The party is all down, on the verge of being dominated/stompytimed by the enemy group when (fortuitously) some great NPC group swoops down and saves them, leaving them in a hospital (expensive, and they'll ask a lot of... interesting questions) with a "We won't be there to save you next time, HINT HINT" note.
Having all their characters be on the verge of vanishing due to their poor planning hopefully would communicate the message without actually having to scrap their characters and write up new ones.
This could be a good one with one change. Once they're down, don't kill them and don't have some bigger fish NPCs "save the day", but rather just have one of the opponents say "We could kill you, but you're not worth the extra bullets it would take." before walking away just as the final one finally actually loses consciousness.
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Or just have an almost TPK.
The party is all down, on the verge of being dominated/stompytimed by the enemy group when (fortuitously) some great NPC group swoops down and saves them, leaving them in a hospital (expensive, and they'll ask a lot of... interesting questions) with a "We won't be there to save you next time, HINT HINT" note.
Having all their characters be on the verge of vanishing due to their poor planning hopefully would communicate the message without actually having to scrap their characters and write up new ones.
No, that doesn't teach them anything. The most effective teaching tool is, and always has been, pain. Safety nets like some deus ex machina coming down to save them only reinforces the idea that they can do crazy drek and get away with it. If you don't want to finish them off, then when the last one goes down, have them all wake up in jail, with shiny new criminal SINs and a desperate need of bail money. Oh, and confiscate R & F gear they don't have licenses for, of course. What this group is lacking is consequences to their actions.
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That would be great (imo) if the problem was that players understood but disregarded the 'common sense' of the setting. If they set out to do stupid things fully knowing that those things are stupid, they're setting out to get smacked (hard) by the GM.
If the issue really is that they just aren't understanding what the common sense guidelines are, though they've evidently noted this lack, punishing them for a lack of understanding (that isn't their fault) is only going to reinforce an adversarial GM - Player relationship. Getting thrown in the slammer and having your character's reset with little to no resources (I'm betting they haven't set up reliable safehouses or stocks of extra equipment) doesn't enlighten you into any of the things people can do to stay away from those consequences.
Really, I do think that having a 'near death' (or near jail, or whatever) experience to provide a motivation while at the same time providing a source of knowledge will serve this problem best. Perhaps they do get thrown in the proverbial slammer, but are saved by a knowledgeable Prime Runner by the seat of their pants. During the episode he/she reveals a few tips and perhaps a contact in the underground net of the area who can provide further tips ("WAIT! What are you doing, idiot, you're going to get yourself killed like that!"). Of course... he might demand or otherwise make off with their vehicle, weapons and any credsticks he finds (not to mention with pictures of the party's faces and their broadcasting SIN numbers. Blackmail arc incoming?).
This way there are still consequences to the lack of common sense, the party isn't scrapped or set back discouragingly far, you have a convenient hook to introduce a 'shadowmentor' of sorts who can interject some street smarts but who will not be there to save them in the future, and hopefully haven't alienated your party.
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Thank you guys, for all your thoughts on this problem.
I was already thinking about the near death situations, however like Mirikon already pointed out don't want to do the obvious deux ex machina thing. Reading through your reactions I have the feeling that part of the problem might be that my players feel invulnerable. Maybe my fault for being a bit too soft on them.
But the "jail -blackmail/mentor " idea might work. They often choose solutions that would attract a lot of heat so its not that strange something like that will happen eventually. Fortunately, most of them have licenses for most of their restricted gear (I got them that far). So incarcination would not completely impair their characters.
So I probably try the following (depending on their actions of course): Last session they caused a small ecological (and financial) disaster and it looks like they are going to cause an addional political problem next session.
If they decide not to lay low for a while, I will make sure justices hammer comes down on them hard. Put them into prison and play a few sessions in it. So they have the chance of getting out of there on their own. If not I will arrange them to be bailed out by a lawyer, who of course works for someone who needs this debt repaid.
Probably some contacts get burned in the process, but thats part of the game.
I will let you know how it plays out.
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Here's my advice:
1. Always try to maintain a serious nature while GMing. Set the mood.
2. Allow them to achieve some measure of success, get some money, karma, gear, respect
3. Put them in a brutal position to lose what they've earned. Take some of it away if they do a poor job in the situation. Show them they need to role play properly and not just screw around.
4. Try to win just 1 of them over and then get him to help you keep things in order
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Invoke every Notoriety-penalty you can think up. Then play the very old Universal Brotherhood story with them (Was it called 'Blood', or...?). Introduce them to the horror of bug shaman masquerading as friendly store clerks and busboys. Show them the consequences of being careless when you are being hunted by bug spirits - have bugs show up in the middle of a run and kill off one of them, if you have to, the others will learn from that!
It's your world: make sure you have fun in it, don't let them ruin it by playing Marvel Superheroes in a cyberpunk setting.
Edit: The story is called Missing Blood.
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However you do it, you have to introduce them to the fact that there's risk, that if they do something stupid it will cost them. If you do toss them into jail, for example, don't immediately provided to solution to that problem. Leave them for a bit before having someone come along and... Arrange their release on the promise that they'll do some work for them. Then introduce them to the sorts of jobs (distraction runs, for example) that such unsubtle runners are given.
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I think that they are testing you, to see how far you can go along. This happens to me as well and even talk to them before the actual play is not really of use. But is highly recommended. You need to ask what kind of game they want to playa and adapt it to your adventure as best you can. Lastly, if they have to get hurt or die for their actions, so be it.
So long!
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A TPK is counter-productive, but I am a big advocate of letting the dice kill someone who does something stupid early on in a campaign.
People pretty much all act the same in an environment without consequences.
If, in the first adventure, you either allow a PC to die as a direct result of their stupidity - or make them really like an NPC, then kill them - it makes a point. A PC makes it much louder, though.
Mind you, it has to be perceived as a direct result of poor planning/judgement/play, or it comes across as YOU, the GM, killing a PC for doing something you don't like. That is poor GMing. Letting the dice fall where they may, though...that is what they need to see.
Do it early. Makes it easier than if you are inconsistent, and they haven't invested as much into the dead guy.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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My players have a bit of the same problem. (Not quite at that level.) What works for me is to inform them of something glaringly obvious that would affect their decisions if they realized it every once in a while. (in your example this would be their low light vision) Of course this is only if one of their characters would realize it. If they all have the logic of a toothpick I won't be informing them of anything logically nonsensical or noteworthy. If they complain later I just remind them of their character's capacities, but it's usually not a problem.
I might drop the "are you sure about that?" question when they're acting like dumb-asses as well. Usually they think about it more rationally for a second, and come to a more sensible conclusion on their own, otherwise whatever happens to them happens. It's bad with them every time we start a new game setting. (or even just a new game.) They're all exited about their abilities and feel a little too deific. (I think their first experience was with Exalted.) Using the above methods they will always start acting more rationally session by session, and get more in character too.
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I had this issue with one team I had years ago, but they learned quickly.
I'm not generally out to get them, and at least in the very early days I may even muff a roll but after they have a couple of games under their belt, I let them live with their decisions, and they generally adapt fairly quickly. But overall it seems to have a lot to do with the maturity of the players. Generally, the less mature they are, the more they like to do dumb things (and age =/= maturity).
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I think before there is any idea about planning a TPK for your group there first needs to be a consensus on what kind of game everyone wants to play. Not just setting style (pink-mohawk vs mirror-shades vs black trench coat), but playstyle and what each person wants to take out of it. Maybe this was discussed at the start of the game, but it's always possible there's a misunderstanding or opinions have changed. Anyhow, a TPK won't do a thing to change the person who wants to just hack and slash, it just lets them roll a new version that might do it better out the gates due to more character building experience.
If that's already taken care of and everyone is on board with a world with consequences and you as a GM want to have them, then by all means give it to them. Personally, I don't like GMing a game without serious and realistic consequences, it feels like it's cheapening the player's experiences by not challenging them and letting their decisions have lasting impact.
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Every time I run a game, I get at least one person who thinks they can just steamroll everything. And, since I always put a threat that's just a bit too much right around the corner, they inevitably complain at me. I usually respond by putting them in the enemy's shoes.
"You are a god-eating beast. You've been locked away for a long, long time. You're hungry, bored, and it's dark. Suddenly, it's dark, there is food nearby, and it is shouting. It wears bright furs, and is moving closer to you."
"But I was trying to research it..."
"You are a god-eating beast. You don't do research. You eat gods. And anything else that moves."
It's a bit of back and forth, to help them see that rationally, the other side HAD to make the decision that nearly, or actually did, kill their character. Sometimes you need to come up with a story for that character beforehand, sometimes on spot, but I've used this a few times.
Frankly, I'd love a party halfway creative enough to use the headlights of their car for more than seeing the road, and a lighter for more than cigarettes. I think I have one now, after about half a decade, but we'll see.
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Every time I run a game, I get at least one person who thinks they can just steamroll everything. And, since I always put a threat that's just a bit too much right around the corner, they inevitably complain at me. I usually respond by putting them in the enemy's shoes.
"You are a god-eating beast. You've been locked away for a long, long time. You're hungry, bored, and it's dark. Suddenly, it's dark, there is food nearby, and it is shouting. It wears bright furs, and is moving closer to you."
"But I was trying to research it..."
"You are a god-eating beast. You don't do research. You eat gods. And anything else that moves."
It's a bit of back and forth, to help them see that rationally, the other side HAD to make the decision that nearly, or actually did, kill their character. Sometimes you need to come up with a story for that character beforehand, sometimes on spot, but I've used this a few times.
Frankly, I'd love a party halfway creative enough to use the headlights of their car for more than seeing the road, and a lighter for more than cigarettes. I think I have one now, after about half a decade, but we'll see.
May I suggest taking away their weapons and making them fight with duct tape?
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It's a bit of back and forth, to help them see that rationally, the other side HAD to make the decision that nearly, or actually did, kill their character. Sometimes you need to come up with a story for that character beforehand, sometimes on spot, but I've used this a few times.
Frankly, I'd love a party halfway creative enough to use the headlights of their car for more than seeing the road, and a lighter for more than cigarettes. I think I have one now, after about half a decade, but we'll see.
My old DnD group was like that, really kept me on my toes with having to come up with the rules.
Examples:
Hole with a big nasty bad guy inside it that was about to come out, Rogue and mage go first, rogue tosses a bottle of booze from his backpack over the hole, and the mage calls down a fire ball into the bottle creating a moltov cocktail.
I had to up the target numbers to hit (rogue had it easy, and the mage critted) so the mob came out of the hole taking burning damage for every round for 3 rounds. It was a fairly fun fight though.
Elf priest cons/seduces her way to an assassination target, gets him alone in an alley and coup'de'graces him.
Recovery job (ShadowRun) to recover some stolen merchandise from a low level gang hangout, they go in completely unarmed other than bringing in drugs, face con's his way through the house and they end up gambling in the basement where they win the Johnson's pet hellhounds back. No shots fired.
I must admit, I do like it when my teams do that, it makes GMing a lot more fun. Although its not without a risk and relies heavily on the players being smart and having a backup plan for when it hits the fan (which does a bit)
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Is it possible that your intended game design and/or path is too transparent and/or narrow and that they are revolting against it as a criticism of your GMing?
I've definitely played in games where that happened.
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I don't have advice just some observations...and a short story. :)
So we a started a an SR sessions, only 2 players, me and another guy (lets call him PC2).
During 10 session, we (and when I say "we" I mean PC2) managed to piss-off the Yakuza, Saeder-Krupp, the local Law enforcement guys and Aztechnology. All this without leaving Seattle, and he was actively hunted and eventually someone called in 2 high caliber bounty hunters to take PC2 down, after he killed a few other lower bounty hunters. So he got brutally murdered. He even pissed of the orc underground a bit...and PC2 was an orc himself.
Now the interesting thing is, he never even read a word from any of the SR4 books to this day (or any other SR book). Till session 8 he didint even know we were in 2072.
So after his character died cause of him being sloppy he got killed, as mentioned before. The only thing he learned was: "Higher number on Body, agility and reaction gooood".
My take away from this is that some people learn from death, and some don't. Some people listen to his friends when they tell you, "read the god damn books already", some players characters die even after repeated warnings that "shooting at the Lone-Star squad car", "killing a Mr. Johnson", "sleeping in a secret lab where you just killed everyone that belongs to one of the mega corporations, 2 days in a row", is a bad and stupid idea.
I would say, slowly increase the difficulty.
- Occasional check if they have there licenses and SINs for certain things, as in when they would enter an area where there would be a check, remind them as a GM. "There is a check point up ahead, do you guys have all your licenses, or you want to risk it?"
- The occasional news feeds that talk of unknown perpetrator, and that the investigators might have a lead on them.
- Obvious shadowing NPCs. As a GM I did this once... The 2 guys were steaking out a mobster in front of a high end hotel in the middle of the downtown's rich district...they were sitting in a white van. So I thought I would send out a guy (another mobster), to take a look at these guys. He knocks on the window of the van they roll down the tinted windows, the NPC ask for a light, PC1 reacts and drives away fast. While looking in the rear view mirror the NPC lights the cigar. I couldent have given them more hints that they were being watched...but PC2 didnt noticed and PC1 had to explain it to him. :)
- A bit more detail from the GM side never hurt, if you feel that they just don't get it sometimes, maybe a drawing of the situation.
- Make them watch, Johnny Mnemonic, Bladerunner, Ghost in the Shell, Akira. So they have some image in there heads.
- If there still being stupid, then well if you cant educate them, well try to have fun your self by inventing insane situations.
* no really, car chases on the high way that only leads to the border.
* sewer level with tons of mutants.
* Chicago
* cranial bombs, watch them go for the books for a solution, on how to get it out... always good if you want you players to read a bit.
* cranial bombs, if you want you players to do what you tell them... bit extreme but hopefully they will notice there in less trouble when the guy who placed the bombs in there heads tells them to "not do this or that".
* and lastly its not always about plot and story, sometimes its all about the fun and improvisation on your and the players side.
Sorry for the long and babbling post...I hope it helps.