[Lemmy Rigwell]

Hello chummers,

about 1.5 years ago I started to be a GM at shadowrun (having played and Gm'ed several RPGs about 10 years ago).
However I am having difiiculties with my group of players. They are all rather smart  and intelligent people in real life (around the age of 30), but as soon as the character sheets are on the table they all starting to behave like 8-year old sociopaths with the common sense of a fish (imho).

A while back I already had a satdown with them and they indicated having some problems with adapting to the game world, comparing it too much to our real life. So we decided to insert more fluff into the game, more descriptions, create even more RP oppertunities to deal with this problem. This helped some for the sociopath bit. However, even though I am trying my best to insert more shadowbuisiness, descriptions and NPC character motivations into the game, they still act with the common sense of a fish.* If I would enforce the grim reality of the shadowrun setting correctly, their actions would lead to a party wipe, or at least major setbacks almost every session.
However, this punishing aproach would probably ruin the game rather quickly. Even now they sometimes think I am doing stuff on purpose to hurt them, while it is just a logical response on the actions they do (like sending KE, when they are walking with armors and assault rifles in high end neighbourhoods (after being warned of course)). I am not a vengefull GM and I have no objections to a pink mohawk approach. However at this pace, I don't know how long I am willing to spend all the time prepping for detailed shadowrun stories and descriptions.

Has anyone have an idea how I can educate my players on the setting and improve on common sense, whithout giving the impression of being a vengefull GM?

*Example on common sense: My players were at the loading dock of a warehouse. They opened the maglock on the door without setting of the alarms.  As they opened the door the decided they wanted some light inside (even though they all have at least low-light vision). Fair enough. They decided that the best way to get light inside was to hoist one of the players motorcycles onto the loading bay and use its headlight to enlighten the room.  Only one example of many

[Mirikon]

Sometimes a TPK can be a valuable learning experience. Especially if they're doing crazy things like that. I'd also encourage them to read some of the fiction, both the old novels, and the new stuff. Even just reading the short fiction pieces in the books is a good deal for getting a feel for the setting.

Also make sure you both have the same idea of the setting. From what it sounds like, you want a Black Trenchcoat style game, and they want a Pink Mohawk style game.

[emsquared]

Sounds like the lessons of a TPK might be lost on them, just yet.

I would say the best thing you can do is proceed just as you have. Give them pink Mohawk missions so they can, if nothing else, get a little bit of that out of their system. Go a little easy on them for consequences. Incrementally introduce "reality" to them AND how to deal with it. Have a trusted contact tell them they're getting too hot. Have a P.I. start following them, and make them aware/suspicious of it. Have In-character NPCs point out the prevalence of cameras and SIN, and their commlinks interactions with everything. Throw them in jail for a few days before they get off due to inconclusive evidence, fine them for unlicensed gear, confiscate something (but not everything). Educate them with grace, then - if they continue to act the fools - smite them, and smite them all. Then tell them why and what they need to do to get along in the world.

Then you all need to evaluate whether you are playing the right type of campaign. And maybe this should be the first step really. You could just GM a para-military style campaign where the trappings of society isn't involved.

[All4BigGuns]

I think the only lesson a TPK teaches is "don't bother with doing a back story, the character will just die soon anyway".

[Mirikon]

I think the only lesson a TPK teaches is "don't bother with doing a back story, the character will just die soon anyway".

That's where you're wrong, Guns. As someone who's both played and GMed through TPKs, I can say with some confidence that what we learned was, simply put, "Don't be stupid." From TPKs, you learn the benefits of planning, and knowing when to run away. You also learn why you should not pick fights with multiple giants when you're a level 6 wizard. Now, let us be clear, going out to deliberately TPK them is wrong. But taking off the kiddie gloves, and letting them experience a TPK as the natural result of their actions? That teaches them not to be idiots.

[All4BigGuns]

Think of it that way if you want, but until I see with my own experience such, I'll continue carrying on this way.

[Orvich]

Or just have an almost TPK.

The party is all down, on the verge of being dominated/stompytimed by the enemy group when (fortuitously) some great NPC group swoops down and saves them, leaving them in a hospital (expensive, and they'll ask a lot of... interesting questions) with a "We won't be there to save you next time, HINT HINT" note.

Having all their characters be on the verge of vanishing due to their poor planning hopefully would communicate the message without actually having to scrap their characters and write up new ones.

[All4BigGuns]

Or just have an almost TPK.

The party is all down, on the verge of being dominated/stompytimed by the enemy group when (fortuitously) some great NPC group swoops down and saves them, leaving them in a hospital (expensive, and they'll ask a lot of... interesting questions) with a "We won't be there to save you next time, HINT HINT" note.

Having all their characters be on the verge of vanishing due to their poor planning hopefully would communicate the message without actually having to scrap their characters and write up new ones.

This could be a good one with one change. Once they're down, don't kill them and don't have some bigger fish NPCs "save the day", but rather just have one of the opponents say "We could kill you, but you're not worth the extra bullets it would take." before walking away just as the final one finally actually loses consciousness.

[Mirikon]

Or just have an almost TPK.

The party is all down, on the verge of being dominated/stompytimed by the enemy group when (fortuitously) some great NPC group swoops down and saves them, leaving them in a hospital (expensive, and they'll ask a lot of... interesting questions) with a "We won't be there to save you next time, HINT HINT" note.

Having all their characters be on the verge of vanishing due to their poor planning hopefully would communicate the message without actually having to scrap their characters and write up new ones.

No, that doesn't teach them anything. The most effective teaching tool is, and always has been, pain. Safety nets like some deus ex machina coming down to save them only reinforces the idea that they can do crazy drek and get away with it. If you don't want to finish them off, then when the last one goes down, have them all wake up in jail, with shiny new criminal SINs and a desperate need of bail money. Oh, and confiscate R & F gear they don't have licenses for, of course. What this group is lacking is consequences to their actions.

[Orvich]

That would be great (imo) if the problem was that players understood but disregarded the 'common sense' of the setting. If they set out to do stupid things fully knowing that those things are stupid, they're setting out to get smacked (hard) by the GM.

If the issue really is that they just aren't understanding what the common sense guidelines are, though they've evidently noted this lack, punishing them for a lack of understanding (that isn't their fault) is only going to reinforce an adversarial GM - Player relationship. Getting thrown in the slammer and having your character's reset with little to no resources (I'm betting they haven't set up reliable safehouses or stocks of extra equipment) doesn't enlighten you into any of the things people can do to stay away from those consequences.

Really, I do think that having a 'near death' (or near jail, or whatever) experience to provide a motivation while at the same time providing a source of knowledge will serve this problem best. Perhaps they do get thrown in the proverbial slammer, but are saved by a knowledgeable Prime Runner by the seat of their pants. During the episode he/she reveals a few tips and perhaps a contact in the underground net of the area who can provide further tips ("WAIT! What are you doing, idiot, you're going to get yourself killed like that!"). Of course... he might demand or otherwise make off with their  vehicle, weapons and any credsticks he finds (not to mention with pictures of the party's faces and their broadcasting SIN numbers. Blackmail arc incoming?).

 This way there are still consequences to the lack of common sense, the party isn't scrapped or set back discouragingly far, you have a convenient hook to introduce a 'shadowmentor' of sorts who can interject some street smarts but who will not be there to save them in the future, and hopefully haven't alienated your party. 

[Lemmy Rigwell]

Thank you guys, for all your thoughts on this problem.

I was already thinking about the near death situations, however like Mirikon already pointed out don't want to do the obvious deux ex machina thing. Reading through your reactions I have the feeling that part of the problem might be that my players feel invulnerable. Maybe my fault for being a bit too soft on them.

But the "jail -blackmail/mentor " idea might work. They often choose solutions that would attract a lot of heat so its not that strange something like that will happen eventually. Fortunately, most of them have licenses for most of their restricted gear (I got them that far). So incarcination would not completely impair their characters.

So I probably try the following (depending on their actions of course): Last session they caused a small ecological (and financial) disaster and it looks like they are going to cause an addional political problem next session.
If they decide not to lay low for a while, I will make sure justices hammer comes down on them hard. Put them into prison and play a few sessions in it. So they have the chance of getting out of there on their own. If not I will arrange them to be bailed out by a lawyer, who of course works for someone who needs this debt repaid.
Probably some contacts get burned in the process, but thats part of the game.
I will let you know how it plays out.

 

[Shadowjack]

Here's my advice:

1. Always try to maintain a serious nature while GMing. Set the mood.
2. Allow them to achieve some measure of success, get some money, karma, gear, respect
3. Put them in a brutal position to lose what they've earned. Take some of it away if they do a poor job in the situation. Show them they need to role play properly and not just screw around.
4. Try to win just 1 of them over and then get him to help you keep things in order

[JD]

Invoke every Notoriety-penalty you can think up. Then play the very old Universal Brotherhood story with them (Was it called 'Blood', or...?). Introduce them to the horror of bug shaman masquerading as friendly store clerks and busboys. Show them the consequences of being careless when you are being hunted by bug spirits - have bugs show up in the middle of a run and kill off one of them, if you have to, the others will learn from that!

It's your world: make sure you have fun in it, don't let them ruin it by playing Marvel Superheroes in a cyberpunk setting.

Edit: The story is called Missing Blood.

[RHat]

However you do it, you have to introduce them to the fact that there's risk, that if they do something stupid it will cost them.  If you do toss them into jail, for example, don't immediately provided to solution to that problem.  Leave them for a bit before having someone come along and...  Arrange their release on the promise that they'll do some work for them.  Then introduce them to the sorts of jobs (distraction runs, for example) that such unsubtle runners are given.

[Deimonos]

I think that they are testing you, to see how far you can go along. This happens to me as well and even talk to them before the actual play is not really of use. But is highly recommended. You need to ask what kind of game they want to playa and adapt it to your adventure as best you can. Lastly, if they have to get hurt or die for their actions, so be it.
So long!