Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Thrass on <01-13-13/1231:41>
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Is the adept power Improved reflexes always on, or does it need to be activated like wired reflexes?
I had a discussion about this in my group and we couldn't quite agree on it.
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Pretty sure, unless you have a Geas, it's always on... that's not from any page or text, but just that I've never read that it had to be activated. And besides, even if it does have to be "activated", it'd be as simple as a thought - again, unless it's a Geas - which even that doesn't require an extra action or anything.
To be very honest, I didn't know Wired Reflexes has to be activated, anymore than any other cyberware has to be "on" (as opposed to off) anyway... would kind of defeat the purpose of the "Reflex" part...
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Wired reflexes needs to be turned on by a free action. "(The system includes a trigger to turn the wired reflexes on and off (taking a Free Action)."
Improve initiative spell works like any spell (complex action to cast and then sustain it)
Synaptic booster has no such thing as activation.
Improved reflexes adept power says "This power increases the speed at which you react, just like wired reflexes."
The question is if "just like wired reflexes" includes the trigger mechanism (which is imho bullshit).
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Under the older editions of the systems... being 'chipped' was a social and medical problem. Doing it too much could lead to siezures and the like. Also the guys would be 'twitchy' with shaky hands that had a hard time staying still... (hence the penalty to slowly & calmly trying to sneak past a motion sensor). This RP side effect has largely gone away in 4th edition.
So some limited versions of the cyber were able to turn this on and off... wired and MbW being the only two examples i can think of. This is an artifact of that.
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So some limited versions of the cyber were able to turn this on and off... wired and MbW being the only two examples i can think of. This is an artifact of that.
You can turn a Move by Wire off? As I understood that system, it put you in a state of constant seizure and then using the system to control these seizures. If you turn that off I think the result won't be pretty.
As for improved reflexes, I always assumed it was always on, like all adept powers unless specifically stated (like the attribute boosts).
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The move by wire when activated puts your muscles into a constant state of seizure so they can react faster. Turning it off doesn't leave in you an uncontrolled seizure.
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It dosn't mention that you can turn off move by wire in my book but I always assumed you can turn it off. (maybe I just missed it and it is noticed somewhere I didn't see it.)
But that is not actually part of my question.
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Wired reflexes needs to be turned on by a free action. "(The system includes a trigger to turn the wired reflexes on and off (taking a Free Action)."
See but to me this just means it has an on/off switch, not that it needs to be activated every time before it's used.
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Wired reflexes needs to be turned on by a free action. "(The system includes a trigger to turn the wired reflexes on and off (taking a Free Action)."
See but to me this just means it has an on/off switch, not that it needs to be activated every time before it's used.
Yes this is probably argued about many times, but not part of my question... please stick to the topic until my question is answered... you can derail it afterwards however you like.
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The description says: "This power increases the speed at which you react, just like wired reflexes." It does one specific thing just like wired reflexes, but the comparison does not mean they are alike in every way. The adept version does not mention being able to turn it off, nor that you are required to activate it. It is always "on", unless you stumble into an area with a high enough background count.
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Yes this is probably argued about many times, but not part of my question... please stick to the topic until my question is answered... you can derail it afterwards however you like.
LOL, okay... well if the logic chain has eluded you; my answer is Wired Reflexes does not need to be activated, therefore, even if Increased Reflexes is like Wired Reflexes in every way - except that it's Magic - Increased Reflexes does not need to be activated. Make sense? I'm not trying to derail your thread, I'm trying to elucidate the source of your confusion.
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Ok, sorry emsquared I just didn't get what you meant then.
What I get is that we all agree that it should not be needed to activate the power.
Which makes me wonder (even more) where this particular group get's the idea it should be activated.
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Yes this is probably argued about many times, but not part of my question... please stick to the topic until my question is answered... you can derail it afterwards however you like.
LOL, okay... well if the logic chain has eluded you; my answer is Wired Reflexes does not need to be activated, therefore, even if Increased Reflexes is like Wired Reflexes in every way - except that it's Magic - Increased Reflexes does not need to be activated. Make sense? I'm not trying to derail your thread, I'm trying to elucidate the source of your confusion.
Except that Wired Reflexes explicitly has an on/off state and must be in the on state - which is the definition of "activated". A character COULD keep their Wired Reflexes on at all times, but then they are walking around in constant bullet time, which may not strictly speaking be good for the mind or for one's ability to judge speeds and therefore things like the force of incoming objects - and good luck trying to hide it while it's turned on, too; Wired Reflexes 3 is a pretty restricted piece of gear, so getting caught with it at the wrong time could be bad (like at a border crossing where it causes the guards to check your information a lot more closely - the book explicitly calls out high-rating wired reflexes as being highly restricted [SR4A, page 70]). So, yes, you can keep your Wired Reflexes constantly activated, but that doesn't change the fact that it needs to be activated - which is very relevant for things like cyberware hacking.
In any case, whatever you personally do is not relevant, as this is a discussion of RAW. And by RAW, Wired Reflexes needs to be activated - and that activation is even explicitly called out as an example of something that might change your number of Initiative Passes in the middle of a round. However, the Improved Reflexes text says "just like wired reflexes", rather than "just like Wired Reflexes (see page 342)". The latter is what it would read if it were inheriting the rules text of Wired Reflexes - capitalization and citation matter. One could make an RAI argument, I suppose, but strict raw has Improved Reflexes being constant.
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[...]but then they are walking around in constant bullet time, which may not strictly speaking be good for the mind or for one's ability to judge speeds and therefore things like the force of incoming objects[...]
Which would be the same for synaptic boosters which don't have an on off state and have no side effects mentioned... so there should be no side effects for wired reflexes too.
The only thing that the RAW "must be activated" means is that at right after the implantation you need to say "I activate my wired reflexes" once and then be done with it...
Ofcourse many groups play it like you need to activate it each encounter/scene or whatever, but this is just a thing that needs be made clear at the table how you play it...
There could be numerous reasons that require you to activate it each time instead of activate it once and then make it last the rest of your life,
a) it messes with your relax/sleep cycles which would require you to turn it off/on it each evening/morning or each time you'ld want to relax (smoke a cigar eat something chill in a hammock...)
b) it has safety measures or a limited supply of whatever (power maybe) that deactivate it automatically after... I dunno a minute? (20 combat turns) or a not given amount of time that is essentially end of combat/end of scene
c) it could have long term side effects if you always had wired reflexes at the on state
all of these are houserules and the fact, that there is a switch but no explanation is kinda a copy/paste thing from 3rd ed
The initiative boosters with all their quirky rules like "works with no other initiative improvement" are in a state of errata need and we can only hope, that Shadowrun 5 finally clears it up.
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[...]but then they are walking around in constant bullet time, which may not strictly speaking be good for the mind or for one's ability to judge speeds and therefore things like the force of incoming objects[...]
Which would be the same for synaptic boosters which don't have an on off state and have no side effects mentioned... so there should be no side effects for wired reflexes too.
The only thing that the RAW "must be activated" means is that at right after the implantation you need to say "I activate my wired reflexes" once and then be done with it...
Ofcourse many groups play it like you need to activate it each encounter/scene or whatever, but this is just a thing that needs be made clear at the table how you play it...
There could be numerous reasons that require you to activate it each time instead of activate it once and then make it last the rest of your life,
a) it messes with your relax/sleep cycles which would require you to turn it off/on it each evening/morning or each time you'ld want to relax (smoke a cigar eat something chill in a hammock...)
b) it has safety measures or a limited supply of whatever (power maybe) that deactivate it automatically after... I dunno a minute? (20 combat turns) or a not given amount of time that is essentially end of combat/end of scene
c) it could have long term side effects if you always had wired reflexes at the on state
all of these are houserules and the fact, that there is a switch but no explanation is kinda a copy/paste thing from 3rd ed
The initiative boosters with all their quirky rules like "works with no other initiative improvement" are in a state of errata need and we can only hope, that Shadowrun 5 finally clears it up.
Either way, RAW seems to be that Wired Reflexes must be activated, whereas Improved does not - which I'm pretty sure answers the original question. Leaving it on pseudo-permanently doesn't change that. Just remember if someone's 'ware gets hacked that their Wired Reflexes can be turned off by that hacker - of course, with a system like that shutting it off is the least unkind option.
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A character COULD keep their Wired Reflexes on at all times, but then they are walking around in constant bullet time,
Just because it has an on off switch doesn't mean it's effects are constantly activated. That's your opinion. That interpretation of the fluff experience doesn't make sense to me and here's why; we're not constantly using REA based movement. Do you tell your GM, "okay I activate my WR now."? No. You don't. Which means at the very least, mechanically it's always on, and therefore there's an argument for it always being on fluff wise too - otherwise a GM could say you have to state when you want to activate it. But what if I forget GM? Well then you forgot IC. And why couldn't you forget IC? Especially in surprise situations, your reflex is not going to be "WR activate!", it's going to be to react to whatever surprised you, unless Wired Reflexes itself is triggered by the reflex response/mechanism in the brain, in which case, it is always on - unless turned off for whatever reason - but that does not mean it is always activated and that doesn't mean you have to consciously activate it.
What good is having hyped up Reflexes if they're not ready when you need a reflex, i.e. instantly?
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Do you tell your GM, "okay I activate my WR now."?
I used to be in at least 3 groups where... Yes they did exactly that.
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I used to be in at least 3 groups where... Yes they did exactly that.
That's unfortunate and IMO wrong, and I think this can be argued by the fact that it is not your perception or ability to process information that is slowed/sped-up (otherwise you'd get a myriad of other bonuses - perception, aiming a gun, etc.) it is simply a facilitation of the exchange of muscle/nerve signals.
PS sorry, Thrass, but it did seem like you have your answer...
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Since my question is only about the Adept Power I'll still go with always on...
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Since my question is only about the Adept Power I'll still go with always on...
Yes, I just meant sorry for going off on the Wired Reflexes fluff tangent, but I figured since it seemed like you had your answer it wouldn't matter as much now.
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Do you tell your GM, "okay I activate my WR now."? No. You don't.
I do, actually, given the fluff and rule entries in the SR4A book (p. 145 - Switching Initiative, p. 219 - Example #2, p. 342 - Wired Reflexes).
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I used to be in at least 3 groups where... Yes they did exactly that.
That's unfortunate and IMO wrong, and I think this can be argued by the fact that it is not your perception or ability to process information that is slowed/sped-up (otherwise you'd get a myriad of other bonuses - perception, aiming a gun, etc.) it is simply a facilitation of the exchange of muscle/nerve signals.
PS sorry, Thrass, but it did seem like you have your answer...
By the fluff, someone with wired reflexes is in "a whole new world where everything around her seems to move in slow motion." People with wired reflexes can do more in the same amount of time, even though they cannot do things like run faster, because they have this subjective time. Bonuses for perception, aiming, and such all fall under the extra initiative passes, since things like aiming or observing in detail are essentially actions that you expend.
But also by the fluff, there is little reason not to keep your wired reflexes on all of the time. In previous editions, there were rules for things such as twitchiness, but the fluff now makes it sound like someone with wired reflexes would be less likely to make those kind of mistakes. The only thing keeping characters from using it all of the time would be OOC reasons (don't like having them on in crowds, don't want to stand out to people who know how to spot a wired person't movements, worried about long-term effects), not game mechanic ones.
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Bonuses for perception, aiming, and such all fall under the extra initiative passes, since things like aiming or observing in detail are essentially actions that you expend.
I guess... just surprising that in 4 or 5 campaigns with 3 or 4 different GMs, that this is the first I've seen anyone say that the effect is constant if the 'ware is on. Seems like it would be unpleasant having a day last essentially 2 to 3 times as long.
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I used to be in at least 3 groups where... Yes they did exactly that.
That's unfortunate and IMO wrong, and I think this can be argued by the fact that it is not your perception or ability to process information that is slowed/sped-up (otherwise you'd get a myriad of other bonuses - perception, aiming a gun, etc.) it is simply a facilitation of the exchange of muscle/nerve signals.
PS sorry, Thrass, but it did seem like you have your answer...
If that's all it was, you wouldn't be able to process information quickly enough to have extra Initiative Passes. When Wired Reflexes is on, it is causing your body to produce adrenaline and increases information processing speed (hence the "neural boosters"), "catapulting the patient into a whole new world where everything around her seems to move in slow motion" (SR4A, 342, description of Wired Reflexes). The physiological effect that causes Wired Reflexes to give you initiative passes is not contingent upon needing those passes - note that it doesn't, for example, say that it piggybacks upon the adrenal response to kick you into overdrive as needed. The benefit to this is that you can turn them on at any time, even when your adrenal response wouldn't have kicked in; this allows you to use it to be able to have extra time to observe something, to aim, or similar things - it grants a bonus to perception, for example, in that you can use one of the extra passes to Observe in Detail. Compare to Synaptic Boosters, which state that they achieve their effect by basically giving your spine more bandwidth. However, as adrenaline naturally seems to slow everything down clearly the body doesn't normally run at max capacity in that sense, suggesting that they're piggybacking on the adrenal response. Which means, if you're looking to use fluff to add a downside to Boosters to keep balance with Wired, that Synaptic Boosters have the benefit of being automatic and thus on in nearly all situations where you need them, while Wired Reflexes can be turned on in preparation or used in situations where that natural adrenal response wouldn't have kicked in and thus Boosters might not be on (but this is based on fluff, rather than rules).
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In order for WR to kick on when you need them, you need another implant connecting the WR to your adrenal gland. If you are going to bother doing that, might as well take the bioware that improves that too. You still have to deactivate them afterward. Now, I wouldn't charge essence for a small hookup like that, just extra nuyen, but that's me.
My policy is to activate the ware when a shadowrun begins, and turn it off when we are in a safehouse or in the clear.
I also think that you should work out with the GM a list of things you're character ALWAYS does. See, our characters are trained professionals that put their lives at risk every day. Most players are not. A character in that situation will be hyped up, their adrenaline surging and their sense hyper-keen. They are, essentially, paying a lot of attention. They won't forget things as much as a player does. Their lives depend on it. So, certain behaviors they display pre-mission become almost a ritual, and so happen every time. The GM can have a short list of things that are ALWAYS done, and make note of that. It isn't even that much extra work for the GM. It takes a minute to read the cheat sheet.
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Wired Reflexes can be turned off and on at will, but you actually have to issue the command. However, there is no real drawback to just leaving them on.
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Do you tell your GM, "okay I activate my WR now."? No. You don't.
In point of fact, characters in the fluff stories at chapter beginnings do explicitly switch their wired reflexes on on several occasions.
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Best Served Chilled, right? (Or a title to that effect.)
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With Move-by-Wire being equated to being in a state of seizure when the system is "on/active", Wired Reflexes would be like having ADD/ADHD when the system is "on/active".
There is no way in reality that you will be able to conduct a sensitive negotiation/social conversation in such a state.
Transcript with WR/MbW:
Mr J: I have..
You: Job yes how much yen?
Mr J walks out the door, because you weren't calm enough to talk coherently with him.
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I think we need to make a 500 part webcomic about this now.
And here, to prove that living in ADHHHD/Bullet time negatively effects you, page 261 SR4A
Sensors are a form of passive security, waiting for a particular kind of
input before sending an alarm signal. As long as this input never arrives,
they remain silent.
Motion sensors pick up on movement. They transmit an ultrasonic
field, and react to changes in that field when anything enters
it. Intruders may detect the ultrasonic field by using an ultrasound
sensor set to passive mode within 5 meters. Defeating a motion sensor
requires that characters move very slowly through the field, one halfmeter
per Combat Turn, and succeeding in an Infiltration + Agility
(3) Test. Characters amped for speed may find it difficult to maneuver
in this way; apply a negative dice pool modifier equal to their extra
Initiative Passes.
Though even that's BS because even today you can't trick motion sensors, or dogs, or olfactory sensors, or spectralizers. But the point is, wired caffeine does in fact affect you in a negative way.
But more importantly still, that transcript Shaidar, horry shet, I lost it.
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I know people who have ADHS and can act very normally, I don't think that's a good comparison.
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I know people who have ADHS and can act very normally, I don't think that's a good comparison.
Indeed. That behaviour would be more like an extreme manic state.
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Though even that's BS because even today you can't trick motion sensors...
I have beat the variety of motion sensors used in household security sensors by moving slowly enough.
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Though even that's BS because even today you can't trick motion sensors...
I have beat the variety of motion sensors used in household security sensors by moving slowly enough.
Correct. PIRs work by comparing background temps. If you move slowly enough, they can't see you.
But it is very difficult and very time consuming. Better to mask your heat, if you know how.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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But it is very difficult and very time consuming. Better to mask your heat, if you know how.
Turn up the heat in the room, duh. I've seen that movie. ;)
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Thermal sensitive motion detectors I understand, but I doubt highly that ultrasound or other reflected waves can be tricked as easily or much at all, I'm sure it's possible and in about a post and half someone's going to prove me wrong but maybe I can't sneak through detectors because I have ADHD, probably why.