Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Reiper on <02-04-13/2227:38>
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Quick question on the 4th ed rules (I read through my pdf but may have missed part of it).
If I'm using a smartlink with contacts (or glasses, goggles, whatever) I understand I still get my full modifier for using it (I think 2nd ed you only got half the modifier with the goggles, may have been 3rd also).
Would the smartlinked contacts still somehow give you your faster reload, and allow you to use ammo skip?
I initially built a character using the link and ammo skip, but after thinking about it, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense since there is no longer a neural connection to allow direct control on things like that. Although if we added a weapon persona could that re-implement it since verbal commands?.
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It is in all ways identical to the implant.
Remember, technology has improved, and there is the fact that it is now an eye modification rather than the .5 Essence induction pad in your hand that it used to be.
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It is in all ways identical to the implant.
Remember, technology has improved, and there is the fact that it is now an eye modification rather than the .5 Essence induction pad in your hand that it used to be.
Yeah I remember that part. Was just trying to figure out how you control a weapon without a link to the brain.
The aiming and such is visual overlays, which is why I didn't haven an issue with that. Main concern is ammo skips, auto ejecting the clip for a quicker reload and such.
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It is in all ways identical to the implant.
Remember, technology has improved, and there is the fact that it is now an eye modification rather than the .5 Essence induction pad in your hand that it used to be.
Yeah I remember that part. Was just trying to figure out how you control a weapon without a link to the brain.
The aiming and such is visual overlays, which is why I didn't haven an issue with that. Main concern is ammo skips, auto ejecting the clip for a quicker reload and such.
You're just over thinking. It works because the information on the smartlink says it works whether it's in contacts or implanted. Full stop. No need to start thinking about "realistic justifications" or any kind of nonsense like that.
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I remember one thread where FastJack came up with an "eye-tracking control" explanation for it, which is certainly one possibility.
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You usually use it with the commlink interface and it assumed you have at least a coldsim system in the commlink. That provides the mental connection you need for the other features in the smartlink.
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Most GMs will force you to have a DNI connection with the gear to use the Free Action benefits of it. Either connected through a Datajack or Trodes is the easiest way to get the DNI connection.
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It's your commlink that controls the smartgun. And in a world that integrates Augmented Reality in nearly every aspect of civil life, everybody needs a way to directly control his commlink / interact with AR (even if just to close distracting popups and advertisement windows^^).
Input devices include vocal commands into a microphone, AR gloves, micro-laser eye trackers in glasses, or even mental commands through direct neural interface.
By the rules, none of the above options is better than the others. So it's up to you to decide how your character normally interacts with AR and in this way controls the full smartgun functions and yes, eye-tracking-control is an options that doesn't need any other tools/implants beside the glasses/contacts you already have. 8)
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K, I'm specifically looking at the point as a mage using a gun as a backup (revolver so I can keep 4x normal or ex rounds, and 2 stick n shocks.
Just wanted to see if it were still viable without burning essence, and wanted some plausible ideas if I'm asked how I'm controlling it.
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K, I'm specifically looking at the point as a mage using a gun as a backup (revolver so I can keep 4x normal or ex rounds, and 2 stick n shocks.
Just wanted to see if it were still viable without burning essence, and wanted some plausible ideas if I'm asked how I'm controlling it.
Well, I always skin-link my Commlink and Smartgun. Remember that you do need an image link on your glasses/contacts as well.
I basicly figure that it is: there is a gyroscope and such inthe gun, so it tracks its position relative to you, the Smartlink tracks what
you are targetting and receives the info from your commlink telling it where your gun is pointing, and the two work together.
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It is in all ways identical to the implant.
Except that the implanted version is an implant and implants have DNI, whereas contacts or glasses do not. Smartlink allows to "mentally switch between gun modes, eject clips, and fire the gun without pulling the trigger", but without DNI there are not mental commands.
On the upside, everyone can get a Trode Net and Sim Module, which provides DNI without implants.
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You can get a Trodenet and therefore have DNI with AR Overlay, all your senses as sensor channels for a Tacnet and everything...
You can then use DNI -> Trodenet -> Pan -> Smartgun to eject clips and change modes via a thought. (that is the smartgun system which provides this)
You do need a Smartlink, to get the +2 bonus and you cannot put this into a trodenet so you need additonal contact lenses which by the rules need an image link.
You can ofcourse use contact lenses with image link and smartlink and[ AR-gloves/subvocal mic], don't have a DNI and use everything to your liking and then use [gestures/voice commands] to make us of the smartgun system which should still be a free action but not "with a thought".
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which all seems to be bringing us back to the question that was debated a bit heatedly a few months ago: "Why is smartlink still a separate vision mod from image link?"
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=8103.0
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It is in all ways identical to the implant.
Except that the implanted version is an implant and implants have DNI, whereas contacts or glasses do not. Smartlink allows to "mentally switch between gun modes, eject clips, and fire the gun without pulling the trigger", but without DNI there are not mental commands.
On the upside, everyone can get a Trode Net and Sim Module, which provides DNI without implants.
There is one, and only one rules difference between the accessory version and the implant version: the implant version works with Spellslinger Gloves. Outside of that, they are rules-identical - if the accessory had less capability, the rules would have to directly state it..
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the major advantage of having cybereyes over just contacts is that you can get all the other mods in your cybereyes.
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You can get nearly all mods you need into contact lenses + glasses
7 slots (3 for lenses 4 for glasses), you usually want:
image link, smartlink, magnification, flare compensation, infrared, ultrasound, low-light, protective covers, vision enhancement
did I miss something?
Contact Lenses rating 3 capacity 3
Image Link takes up 1 Capacity
Smartlink takes up 1 Capacity
Flare Compensation takes up 1 Capacity
- you end up with an Availability of 12
Glasses rating 4 capacity 4
Ultrasound takes up 1 capacity
Vision enhancement rating 3 takes up 1 capacity
- you end up with an availability of 12
the availability is the cap here, but you have everything you need:
You keep on the lenses at all times and are protected against flashes and have that AR overlay for the Tacnet as well as the Smartlink ready at all times.
Even when you are glitching and thus falling down the stairs loosing your glasses, or whatever situation could arise.
You can put on/off your glasses as the situation dictates (or keep them on at all times) and get vision enhancement and ultrasound (which is arguably the best vision mod).
You can then go get 2 more mods for you glasses ingame.
Namely infrared and magnification.
Yes you can stack low-light UV T-rays and whatnot into your cybereyes as well as a laser but the GM-screen lists only the "basic" mods for modifiers hence you will probably end up with modifiers based on that chart and low light dosn't ever come into play unless in a situation where you can use a light source of your choice.
You get an additonal available capacity when you are a metatype with an appropriate vision mod already built in.
I don't remember if protective covers raise the availability so I left them out. (Always buying them never actually had any use of them yet).
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which all seems to be bringing us back to the question that was debated a bit heatedly a few months ago: "Why is smartlink still a separate vision mod from image link?"
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=8103.0
I've always understood the smartlink to be more of a channel for the smartgun itself to "Talk" to your image display and project its trajectory and whatnot. So, an image link is to look out of other optical devices, but the smartlink is to receive information from the smartgun, which you can use an image link to look out of the smartgun itself. The imagelink is also what alows you to see display information from your PAN and Commlink.
I always imagined the smartlink projecting the aim arc onto your vision like the Torque Bow or grenades from Gears of War.
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The smartgun has always been 4 parts though...
The sensors and servos automating the gun.
The embedded cyberware/electronics
The imagelink to display the aiming aid.
The DNI interface to send mental commands to actuate the gun faster than mechanically pressing buttons.
Imagelink by itself is not enough... EVERY electrical thing with an interface can send it's data to imagelink.. it's not unique to smartguns.
The embedded cyberware... has now been reduced to the eyeware module done as part of the cybereyes instead of a separate piece of 'ware. Or an option installed into glasses/contacts which already have imagelink.
As for why it's not built into the guns... it's expensive... and requires a separate license!
Think about that... if the gun portion is $1000 each (or doubles the cost of the gun, whichever is less for sake of argument). Then you have to include the cost of the processing hardware on top of this... which is $500 extra. As well as the price of having two licenses for each gun (one for the gun, another for the smartlink).
From a user/marketing perspective here's this single cost item you can use with all your guns and (fake) license once. Or here's something you need to pay a lot extra to build into each gun with a smartlink.
It's also not merely software for some reason... it's only available as a CF for technos (it's magic!)... not as general purpose software to run on a commlink.
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which all seems to be bringing us back to the question that was debated a bit heatedly a few months ago: "Why is smartlink still a separate vision mod from image link?"
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=8103.0
I've always understood the smartlink to be more of a channel for the smartgun itself to "Talk" to your image display and project its trajectory and whatnot. So, an image link is to look out of other optical devices, but the smartlink is to receive information from the smartgun, which you can use an image link to look out of the smartgun itself. The imagelink is also what alows you to see display information from your PAN and Commlink.
I always imagined the smartlink projecting the aim arc onto your vision like the Torque Bow or grenades from Gears of War.
As was discussed in the linked thread, reading the descriptions of both Smartgun and Smartlink indicates that all of the computations are being done inside the smartgun system itself, and smartlink's only job is to display that information (and possibly function as some sort of magical DNI that only works for the gun), something imagelink is perfectly capable of doing for every single other device in your PAN.
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There is one, and only one rules difference between the accessory version and the implant version: the implant version works with Spellslinger Gloves. Outside of that, they are rules-identical - if the accessory had less capability, the rules would have to directly state it..
The rules do state it, because both the Change Linked Device Mode and Eject Smartgun Clip actions explicitly refer to mental commands. Mental commands do not happen without DNI, and DNI does not happen with just contacts.
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There is one, and only one rules difference between the accessory version and the implant version: the implant version works with Spellslinger Gloves. Outside of that, they are rules-identical - if the accessory had less capability, the rules would have to directly state it..
The rules do state it, because both the Change Linked Device Mode and Eject Smartgun Clip actions explicitly refer to mental commands. Mental commands do not happen without DNI, and DNI does not happen with just contacts.
That is a functionality of the smartgun system on the gun, not the smartlink vision modifier (whether implant or not).
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There is one, and only one rules difference between the accessory version and the implant version: the implant version works with Spellslinger Gloves. Outside of that, they are rules-identical - if the accessory had less capability, the rules would have to directly state it..
The rules do state it, because both the Change Linked Device Mode and Eject Smartgun Clip actions explicitly refer to mental commands. Mental commands do not happen without DNI, and DNI does not happen with just contacts.
That is not the sort of statement that would be required. That's an attempt at an edge-wise argument to bolster your case because you cannot find a spot where it is made explicit that the implant version is required for that functionality - even those actions do not explicitly state that they will not function with the glasses/contacts version of the smartlink.
You might argue that it's implied, but it is not at any point stated.
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I can see it either way, thanks for the info guys. Will let my GM make the decision on that aspect though.
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I can see it either way, thanks for the info guys. Will let my GM make the decision on that aspect though.
If need be, use trodes (SR4A328). They're a non-implanted method of getting DNI.
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I can see it either way, thanks for the info guys. Will let my GM make the decision on that aspect though.
If need be, use trodes (SR4A328). They're a non-implanted method of getting DNI.
I may do that. The only real reason I was wondering is I was thinking about using ammo skip on my mage's revolver, but I'm hoping to rarely have to use that. May just end up with two guns instead.
Then again it looks like my game may have fallen apart too, we'll see.
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As RHat pointed out, trodes are the answer.
A dirt cheap and essence-free way to get direct neural inferface (both input and output) with your commlink, contacts, earbuds, smartgun and any other electronic gear you might use.
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even those actions do not explicitly state that they will not function with the glasses/contacts version of the smartlink.
Because they work with the glasses/contacts version if you have a DNI. If you do not have one, well, you could of course claim that everything is capable of receiving mental commands unless explicitly stated otherwise...it would be an extremely silly argument, but you surely could...
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even those actions do not explicitly state that they will not function with the glasses/contacts version of the smartlink.
Because they work with the glasses/contacts version if you have a DNI. If you do not have one, well, you could of course claim that everything is capable of receiving mental commands unless explicitly stated otherwise...it would be an extremely silly argument, but you surely could...
Okay, so find me something that specifically states (rather than something you can argue implies) that you need something like trodes to get that functionality from the glasses/contacts.
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even those actions do not explicitly state that they will not function with the glasses/contacts version of the smartlink.
Because they work with the glasses/contacts version if you have a DNI. If you do not have one, well, you could of course claim that everything is capable of receiving mental commands unless explicitly stated otherwise...it would be an extremely silly argument, but you surely could...
Okay, so find me something that specifically states (rather than something you can argue implies) that you need something like trodes to get that functionality from the glasses/contacts.
The functionality doesn't come from the glasses/contacts. The commands to eject clip, and so on aren't done by the glasses (or the cybereye), but by the gun. Meaning that this conversation is pointless. Either you have the DNI connection to your PAN or you don't. Whether it is trodes, a simrig, or an implanted SIM module, THAT is what allows you to issue DNI commands to devices connected to your PAN, such as your smartgun.
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even those actions do not explicitly state that they will not function with the glasses/contacts version of the smartlink.
Because they work with the glasses/contacts version if you have a DNI. If you do not have one, well, you could of course claim that everything is capable of receiving mental commands unless explicitly stated otherwise...it would be an extremely silly argument, but you surely could...
Okay, so find me something that specifically states (rather than something you can argue implies) that you need something like trodes to get that functionality from the glasses/contacts.
The functionality doesn't come from the glasses/contacts. The commands to eject clip, and so on aren't done by the glasses (or the cybereye), but by the gun. Meaning that this conversation is pointless. Either you have the DNI connection to your PAN or you don't. Whether it is trodes, a simrig, or an implanted SIM module, THAT is what allows you to issue DNI commands to devices connected to your PAN, such as your smartgun.
Which would suggest you don't need the smartlink for those commands - which as I recall, you do. It's honestly a little messy overall - a line in the text about alternate means of command (voice, eyetracking, things like that) or specifying that a means of DNI is required would clean it up a fair bit. Until that's added, there's no specific statement as to that need.
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As RHat pointed out, trodes are the answer.
A dirt cheap and essence-free way to get direct neural inferface (both input and output) with your commlink, contacts, earbuds, smartgun and any other electronic gear you might use.
I could've sworn trodes were such an obvious requirement to playing this game that it wasn't even worth mentioning...
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As RHat pointed out, trodes are the answer.
A dirt cheap and essence-free way to get direct neural inferface (both input and output) with your commlink, contacts, earbuds, smartgun and any other electronic gear you might use.
I could've sworn trodes were such an obvious requirement to playing this game that it wasn't even worth mentioning...
I thought SimModule w/ Skinlink served the same purpose? Kind of implied in the one fiction in Attitude.
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No a sim module requires trodes or a datajack. It doesn't function with merely skinlink. (see the rules for sim modules and AR/VR).
Datajacks have very limited simsense.. in that they can run knowsofts/linguasofts but not full simsense.
Skinlink is nothing but a transmission path replacing signal, it doesn't give direct access to DNI, you'd still need something like a skinlinked datajack/trodes to have access to DNI.
Even DNI itself doesn't allow direct access to senses/imaging... a sim module would be necessary with DNI to see what you're seeing and do an AR overlay or access VR for example. Or without a sim-module you'd need imagelink on cybereyes/glasses to view the DNI data.
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I still think you should be able to upgrade your sim module with smartlink.
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If you mean alone, would you consider directing that stretch towards a simrig?
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Which would suggest you don't need the smartlink for those commands
Congratulations, you figured it out. Mentally interacting with a device is a function of DNI (which an implanted Smartlink happens to have), not a function of the Smartlnk itself, and much less an exclusive function. For all further questions, see "Change Linked Device Mode", p. 146 of the BBB.
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@Novocrane
SR4A p.328:
"Simrigs incorporate a sim module."
So your answer is yes.
If your question wasn't directed towards me, nevermind.
I think basically you should imho be having a 4 part list:
a) Smartgun (can't be switched out is essential)
b) Optionally an AR interface with a Smartlink upgrade, this gives you acces to the +2 bonus on shooting as well as enabling tacnet boni, which can be one of the following (not a complete list):
- Trodenet + Simmodule
- Datajack
- Implanted Comlink
- Implanted SimModule
- Implanted SimRig
- Cybereyes/Contact lenses/Glasses/Helmet with image link
c) optionally a DNI to use Smartgun functions, like change device link, which can be one of the following (not a complete list):
- Trodenet
- Datajack
- Implanted Comlink
- Implanted SimModule
- Implanted SimRig
d) A subscription a <--> b both ways and/ or a <--> c both ways:
- fiberoptic cable
- wifi
- skinlink
- whatever
There could also be an outdated version of a simrig with a builtin smartlink that can attach to the fiberoptic smartlink weapons from gunhaven... 2?
Then you'ld have a hack-secure minimum oldstyle set of a smartlink.
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Which would suggest you don't need the smartlink for those commands
Congratulations, you figured it out. Mentally interacting with a device is a function of DNI (which an implanted Smartlink happens to have), not a function of the Smartlnk itself, and much less an exclusive function. For all further questions, see "Change Linked Device Mode", p. 146 of the BBB.
Except that the rules explicitly refer to allowing a smartlinked character to make use of those commands. The Smartlink is required.
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It was directed at you, Thrass. The important bit was that a simrig is essentially a combined high quality sim module / trode net.
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Except that the rules explicitly refer to allowing a smartlinked character to make use of those commands. The Smartlink is required.
I suggest you read the description of the Smartlink Vision Mod again...
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Except that the rules explicitly refer to allowing a smartlinked character to make use of those commands. The Smartlink is required.
I suggest you read the description of the Smartlink Vision Mod again...
All bold text in quotes are emphasis from me.
Smartgun System: The smartgun system connects a firearm or
projectile weapon directly to a user’s smartlink (p. 333). It incorporates
a laser range finder and a small camera, and keeps track of ammunition,
heat buildup, and material stress. It allows a smartlinked character to
mentally switch between gun modes, eject clips, and fire the gun without
pulling the trigger. The camera allows for targeted shooting around
corners, without exposing oneself to return fire.
The system makes use of advanced calculation software, allowing
the user to aim even weapons with a highly ballistic firing arc (like
grenades) with tremendous precision over any distance. The smartgun
system can also be accessed via wireless link, allowing for the gun to be
remotely fired or to block the trigger (in case an opponent gets ahold
of it). When used with a smartlink, it provides a +2 dice pool bonus
on the ranged attack test.
Retrofitting a firearm with an internal Smartgun system doubles
the weapon’s price. An external smartgun system can be attached to
the top mount or underbarrel mount with an Armorer + Logic (4, 1
hour) Extended Test. The small camera can be equipped with vision
enhancements (p. 333).
Smartlink: This accessory interacts with a smartgun system
(p. 322) to project the weapon’s angle of fire into the user’s vision,
centering red crosshairs where the user is pointing and highlighting
perceived targets. The smartgun’s laser rangefinder also calculates and
displays the distance to the target. Additional data from the weapon,
such as the ammunition level, heat buildup, and stress can also be displayed.
Requires an image link.
Eject Smartgun Clip
A character linked to and holding a ready smartgun may use a mental
command to eject the weapon’s clip. It still takes a Simple Action to
insert a new, fresh clip. See Smartgun System, p. 322.
The "linked to" is referring to a connection to a smartgun through a DNI. You can benefit from the dice pool bonuses of a smartgun system without any DNI. You still can see the AR displays and the projected arc of fire and so forth, gaining the bonuses without have a Direct Neural Interface, so long as you have a vision augmentation of some sort giving you the information.
You only need the DNI to gain the added bonuses of being able to think commands at your gun. The bonus speed of some actions (eject clip, change fire mode, etc) related to the Smartlink are gained from the DNI allowing a user to send commands via commlink to gun equipped with a smartgun system. This is similar to being able to send messages via commlink:
Speak/Text Phrase
Speaking one phrase or sentence of verbal communication is a Free
Action. If the character wants to speak more, each additional phrase/
sentence requires a Free Action. The gamemaster should be careful
to control excessive, unrealistic conversations within the span of a
Combat Turn (about 3 seconds). Some gamemasters and players may,
however, prefer elaborate communication.
Characters who are equipped to send text messages through a
neural connection with their commlink may also send short messages
as a Free Action.
Think of the bonus free action commands "provided by a smartgun" as the result of sending a message through your commlink linked to your gun to the smartgun systems, telling it what to do.