[Quatar]

Only slightly related to the original question:

Can Adepts create a Lodge and if so, what does it do for them?

[Reaver]

Only slightly related to the original question:

Can Adepts create a Lodge and if so, what does it do for them?

Physical adept?
Nope.

And 'nothing'.

A lodge serves three basic functions.
1: its a place where a mage can learn spells,
2: a place to conduct ritual magic,
3: act as a mana barrier.

For a physical adept, only the last point has any real use to them.


Mystic adepts?
Yes, and its needed for:
Learning spells,
Casting Ritual magics.
Mana barrier.

Without a lodge, a mystic adept can never learn new spells.

[Tarislar]

Personally, I wouldn't let it cover an entire home/apartment.
Maybe its just me but I don't see the "spiritual connection room" as being something that every person in the house walks through.
But I see no problem in letting your lodge be in your bedroom as that is a bit more off limits.

[Senko]

My problem with that Tarislar is ritual magic specifically.

1) You're dealing with potentially multiple people casting the ritual so they all have to be present.
2) A ritual MUST be cast in a lodge, p.g.296 core rulebook "A ritual must be cast in a magical lodge appropriate to the leader's tradition, which is referred to as the foundation for the ritual." and "Once the lodge is active no participant (except a spotter) may leave the foundation until the ritual is complete without causing the ritual to fail.".
3) Most rituals take force hours to complete with some taking force day's.

That's a very long time for a group of people to be crammed into a small space. They can't leave or the ritual fails, they sleep together, eat together, use the facilities together. Similarly if your trying to pull off a major ritual you could have a dozen participants (or more) for them to fit in comfortably you'd be looking at a space larger than a lot of modern apartments.

Its another one of those rare rules I think was made for balance considerations without considering how it would actually work in practice. Ritual magic needs multiple people to really be effective and it has to be in a lodge therefore the lodge has to be big enough for everyone to fit in and if the rituals going to take day's or even a day they'll need to eat and use the toilet at some point.

There's also a lot to be said for your entire home to be spiritually warded and part of your magic especially for those like me who don't want visitors and would have very few people passing through. Others may well want, be able to afford a huge facility elsewhere as their lodge but for a lot its going to need to fit around their lifestyle and still work with the rules as written.

[Kiirnodel]

If you want an entire building to be warded, that is what the Ward ritual is for.

I agree that magical lodges aren't supposed to cover an entire apartment, I usually limit it to one room, maybe two if you have an open floor plan. For instance, in my example earlier about the loft, the "lodge" was limited only to the personal living space for that character. So even though the full living space was a big open area, because it was partitioned into separate spaces, that contained the lodge.

I do sometimes wish that lodges had a range of how big they should/can be. For example, a Rating 1 lodge might be able to range from 1m radius to a 5m radius space. I definitely think a larger rating ward should both require more space, but also allow for a bigger area. But you shouldn't be able to outright replace the Ward ritual with being able to just set up a permanent lodge. There's definitely a limit to how big a magician's lodge can go.

[Rosa]

If you want an entire building to be warded, that is what the Ward ritual is for.

I agree that magical lodges aren't supposed to cover an entire apartment, I usually limit it to one room, maybe two if you have an open floor plan. For instance, in my example earlier about the loft, the "lodge" was limited only to the personal living space for that character. So even though the full living space was a big open area, because it was partitioned into separate spaces, that contained the lodge.

I do sometimes wish that lodges had a range of how big they should/can be. For example, a Rating 1 lodge might be able to range from 1m radius to a 5m radius space. I definitely think a larger rating ward should both require more space, but also allow for a bigger area. But you shouldn't be able to outright replace the Ward ritual with being able to just set up a permanent lodge. There's definitely a limit to how big a magician's lodge can go.

There used to be a size requirement back in 3rd ed. for the mage variant, which were called Hermetic circles, they had to be 1m radius pr. point of force and were used for summoning and ritual magic and you had to use a hermetic library to learn spells, shamen hade lodges. Pr. 4th ed. evryone had lodges and the size requirement were gone. So it would be easy to make as a houserule if you want.

In my games your lodge is of Paramount importance because it represents the physical center of your connection to magic, so i always require a thorough description of the lodge and that it is set "aside" from the normal living areas, because it is the place where you center yourself in order to Work advanced magic. Now if you Work in the capacity as a wagemage then your workplace will provide a lodge area for you, and most magical Groups will also have 1 or more lodges ( another advantage of being in a Group ). In my version of the SR you could certainly sleep in your lodge if you had a need for it, but you cannot live in your lodge, it would simply mess too much with the astral energies/equilibrium needed to make the lodge Work as it is supposed to, so if you only have a 1 room flat or something, then you'll need Space elsewhere or make do with temporary lodges.

[Jack_Spade]

Bah, a shaman's lodge was traditionally the place where he lived. If the place where you can be yourself isn't the place where you are in tune with your magic I'd say something is wrong with your magic or with you.
Not having annoying guests over while you try to work intricate magic is an entirely different topic.

[Rosa]

*Well that was sort of my point. I did say that you could certainly sleep in your lodge if you wanted to, but not "live" in it, because for most people in the 6th World "living" in a place includes a Whole host activities that would certainly affect any permanent astral construct, including having annoying guests over. Now if you were a hermit or a tribal style shaman it might be different, and many tribal societies used specific medicine lodges or other specially prepared ritual areas for important ceremonies, and i'm very sure that in most if not all of those societies the shamans hut was NOT a place you went for a casual visit as it was considered a sacred and potentially dangerous place.

[Senko]

As I said my problem with that is the ritual magic rules. Get rid of that and have lodges being only necessary for learning new spells (hermetic library, shamans lodge, Vodou shrine, etc) and you'd get rid of my objections. You can ward a building seperately afterall and needing to spend some time in a specific room to learn spells isn't a big deal. Its the ritual magic one (something I suspect that doesn't come up for a lot of players I admit) where limiting the lodge like that (1m per force, seperate room, etc) really makes ritual magic a pain in the neck to manage.

If your casting one of the rituals that takes day's or even longer than sunrise-sunset you aren't going to want to use a temporary lodge but a permanent one with those restrictions makes it practically impossible and its not easy to start with if you want to really take advantage of it. Lets say your casting a fairly simple one 6 particpants (including the leader) casting a force 6 ritual. You have 6 people in one room for either 6 hours or 6 day's. That's a long time to spend cooped up in a small space with other people, just cramming 6 people into a room that may only be a few meters square is bad enough. If its an apartment containing the lodge you can have people in different bedrooms resting, eating in the kitchen, using the toilet and chanting in the living room.

Dump the ritual magic requirement to be in a lodge and you can cast it in the woods, a warehouse, a corporate office or wherever. Everyone has their own tastes but having your home being your lodge, a place of sanctuary and magical identification makes sense to me. I'd possibly object if your trying to claim a 5 bedroom, 3 bathroom, poolhouse, gardens, etc as one lodge unless it was very high force but a normal apartment that's 50-100m2 I can see being reasonable. As long as its one area i.e. no detached garage. Tthe lodge ends at the boundaries of your home and I'd probably rule that as being at the walls of it i.e. no balconies unless they're entirely enclosed.

[Tarislar]

I'd be willing to say you can do an entire house if there was some sort of measurement for Materials & space.

Like 1 Unit is enough for 25 Sqr Feet at Force 1.
4 Units would quadruple the space or the Force but not both.

[Overbyte]

On this topic.. could you erect one inside a cargo container? 
And would it stay active if the container was moved? What about inside a cargo plane?
I know these are a little crazy, but the issue is actually likely to come up soon in my game.
I'm leaning towards yes, because you could make all the symbols and items stationary with respect to each other.

[Reaver]

Wards and (I believe) lodges are anchored geographically. Meaning they can not be moved once set up without being dismissed, (or in the case of lodges) broken down to their reagents.

While I don't have my book on me, I think this is listed in the SG book.

[Senko]

I don't recall that Reaver, there were rules about moving lodges i.e. you need to break down a lodge and reassemble it at a new ste but street grimoire also implies if you build that site on a moveable location you don't need to do so. See p.g 224 when its talking about talismongers . . .

Talismongers because of the nature of their work will work out of a physical shop. A talismonger needs tools, some place to store their reagents, and a proper work area to enchant (also commonly referred to as their magic lodge). This would typically be a storefront known as a lore shop, which most reputable talismongers prefer as it makes it easy for their clients to find them. Alternatively this could be the back of van or other type of vehicle, as some talismongers prefer to remain mobile and harder to find, while also keeping the location of their permanent magic lodge secret.

So going by that if you build your lodge on a mobile location "cargo crate, car, plane" and then move that container you move the lodge. Its just a matter of you initially building/placing the lodge with that in mind and accepting if you don't secure things inside you could wind up with you lodge elements cracking you over the head (see the top gear episode where Jeremy modified a car into an english cottage). Incidently it also seems to indicate there may be some customer movement inside that lodge storefront but that's more debateable.

@Tarislar
Ok I'd like to build a lodge that covers an apartment and you want a measurement of space so lets see if we can work something out we're both happy with. A good starting point I think would be to use the force as indicated in the 4th ed rules with some modifications. I have created a thread here http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=25034.0 for us to discuss a houserules lodge area rule if anyone's interested in contributing.

[Overbyte]

Good find Senko.. so that's a yes. It can be done.
On a boat.. or with a goat..
In a box.. or with a fox..

[Reaver]

Yep, I was wrong.

Its only wards that can't be placed on moving objects.