[Reaver]

In 5e you could increase Soak to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you could buy enough hits to shake off any damage from a gun.  In 6e you can increase DR to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you've exceeded any Attack Rating you're likely to see.

As a GM I didn't like the huge variance in PC defense and soak pools that you found at 5E tables.  But, IMO, 6E was an over correction as significant investments in DR don't pay "enough" to be worth it.  Dermal Armor, Ortho Skin, Mystic Armor, all really expensive choices for what you gain.

Hopefully future 6E supplements will give some Quality or Edge Actions or something for the high end DR builds.  Something that triggers at +6/+8/+10 or whatever.

Shrug it off!  3 Edge, if your DR is 8 or more higher than an incoming attack that attack does no Damage.

Quality You got nuthin!  If your DR is 6 or more higher than an incoming attack gain +4 Dice on a Charisma + Intimidate check.

ect, ect, ect.   Lots of ways to use the mechanic to make a higher DR mechanically desirable if they wanted to.

(Keep in mind I don't have the 6e book yet)

I think part of the reason is also thematic.
I admit I don't know the rules for 6e, so I will not talk about them beyond from what I am understanding.


In the previous editions, it is true you CAN get stupid amounts of armor. No denying that. BUT, that doesn't mean you could actually do that 100% of the time. (hence the reason for the wide range of armors and options).

I am sorry to tell you this... but you just can NOT wear your heavy Mil Spec armor to a dinner party But you could wear an armored up Tuxedo, or dinner gown...
Naturally, your gown or Tuxedo wouldn't be as effective as your Mil Spec.. but at least you got in the front door.

Situation and circumstance usually dictate armor values in the actual game, far beyond shopping wish lists. (although the wish list comparison works for showing the "wonky" sit of things). And if you were allowing your troll to go to Dinner parties in mil spec armor, and were complaining about armor values in 5e....I don't don't think you'll like what I have to say    
 

And, if you can't count on 3cm of ceramic hardened ballistic fibers to stop lead dead in its tracks, you plan around it. Or maybe you modded your armor for synergy with your team. There was options...

Even against the most heavily armored troll, you still had options.... Stick and shock ammo for stun damage (because while trolls do have huge health pools, their stun pools are usually tiny). Or gas grenades... or spells. 


Now, from the sounds of it (and ONLY from the sounds of it. Again, I don't have the book, so just relying on what I understand 3rd hand), This aspect of the game has been reduced (or maybe just redefined??)... Which does concern me at bit....(although i have no doubt that the usual range and styles of armor are still there, along with the huge pile of mods).

It just sounding a little too... subjective... (basing this off other posts I have read).... What counts as an "advantage" seems to boil down to a simple judgement call instead of a mechanical advantage that has been defined...

"Alright, Timmy gets the Advantage, and thus the Edge to spend. Why? Well, his gun is Pink.. and distracting you by how awful it looks. Yes I know you have a laser sight, and smart link, but so does Timmy, hence the pink gun wins!"..



I really got to get off my ass and buy the book and read it...

[Trigger Lynx]

Methinks the Edge-focus system is really the root of all this controversy. The Edge gain/expenditure per round mechanic is both over reaching and limited. If the intent of the new edition was for a more cinematic, stream-lined combat system then it fell short (just my opinion).  If some mechanics of the previous edition were felt to be unbalanced (Accuracy/Limit, god-tier Soak Value), then just correct those and be done with it. A complete overhaul of the existing system was totally unnecessary, and it's (seemingly) lack of playtesting has created it's own complications.

House Rule
Remove Edge gain from AR/DR. Remove Edge Boosts actions. Edge may be used for any test at any time. Edge may be used to increase dice pools on a 1:1 basis. Edge may be used to reroll dice on a 2:1 basis, and benefit from "exploding 6's". Edge may be used to add hits on a 3:1 basis. Edge spent in the previous turn is refreshed at the beginning of your action turn.

I enjoy the concept of ARvsDR, but it's implementation is weak. Conceptually, being able to see in the dark better than the guy shooting at you has the same potential to alleviate damage from a gunshot as wearing armor does. That's not totally immersion-breaking, right? But conceptually, using APDS ammo, thinking about something real hard (Analytical Mind), or standing on one foot (Catlike) all have the same potential to alleviate the damage from a gunshot as wearing armor does, and that's just... whatever you want to call it. There's nothing special or specific about worn armor that represents it's function.  Mechanically, it's just a good luck charm. Whether that's good enough is entirely up to you. We've all said our part, and at this point we're just low-key trolling each other =p

House Rule
If DR is higher than AR, net hits from the attack don't add to base damage.

EDIT: meant to hit Preview during proofreading, hit Post instead.

[Hobbes]

Situation and circumstance usually dictate armor values in the actual game, far beyond shopping wish lists. (although the wish list comparison works for showing the "wonky" sit of things). And if you were allowing your troll to go to Dinner parties in mil spec armor, and were complaining about armor values in 5e....I don't don't think you'll like what I have to say    
 

Trolls get invited to Dinner Parties? 

Yes, circumstance matters.  However, Mortimer's or Sleeping Tiger starts at a 12 or 13, and you can easily have a slew of "+" ready to go with short notice (Hello Ares Armored Briefcase).  Or in some cases already strapped on (Masquerade Ball or outdoor event so you can wear your custom stacking jacket?).  I had a four cyberlimb Decker that had 28 dice of Soak even at a fancy Dinner Party.  Not quite immune to Assault Rifles, but could take a few bursts before getting worried.

[RuleLawyer]

It’s clear to me that Sally Tsung, on the cover of the SR1 CRB, plays using 6E rules.  Since a bikini is now almost as good at defense as a lined coat, and often causes security guards to delay a half-dozen rounds before they pull their guns, we’ll see a lot more skin in this game. More skin (daisy dukes or chain-link bikinis) in the artwork might attract a certain demographic of players. I state no opinion on whether this would be good or bad.

[Trigger Lynx]

It’s clear to me that Sally Tsung, on the cover of the SR1 CRB, plays using 6E rules.  Since a bikini is now almost as good at defense as a lined coat, and often causes security guards to delay a half-dozen rounds before they pull their guns, we’ll see a lot more skin in this game. More skin (daisy dukes or chain-link bikinis) in the artwork might attract a certain demographic of players. I state no opinion on whether this would be good or bad.

Indeed! What with Johnny Spinrad being a household name again, I forsee a new generation of Shadowrunners taking to the streets with only four cyberlimbs (Armor 2 each) and a bikini/banana hammock for protection. Costs more than Full Body Armor, but it's better protection AND you get to show off your bio-sculpted abs. That's not just rad, it's Spinrad 

[Reaver]

It’s clear to me that Sally Tsung, on the cover of the SR1 CRB, plays using 6E rules.  Since a bikini is now almost as good at defense as a lined coat, and often causes security guards to delay a half-dozen rounds before they pull their guns, we’ll see a lot more skin in this game. More skin (daisy dukes or chain-link bikinis) in the artwork might attract a certain demographic of players. I state no opinion on whether this would be good or bad.

Wait... a... minute....

I see what's going on!!!

The dev's were so tired of the "Bikini Armor" meme, They made rules to SUPPORT it!!

GM: "And Sally, gains the edge this combat turn..."

Todd: "What?!? Again!?!? that's the third turn in a row! I don't get it!! I've got an Assault Rifle, Heavy security armor, Wire Reflexes, smartgun, Over watch AI Drone, AND a broom up my ass so i can also sweep the floor while murdering!!! Why is SHE getting the Edge all the time?!?!"

GM: "Sally.. what is your character wearing again?"

Sally: "Only the lasest in tactical leopard print micro thong Bikini armor from Ares!"

GM: ".... And that's why she wins Edge. Every time."

[penllawen]

I have no experience with previous systems other than 5e, so can't comment on that.

I got you.

This doc I made has a full worked example of a single combat resolution (Alice shoots Bob with an Ares Predator at Long range) in 1e/2e/3e/4e/5e/6e.

[Lormyr]

I have no experience with previous systems other than 5e, so can't comment on that.

I got you.

This doc I made has a full worked example of a single combat resolution (Alice shoots Bob with an Ares Predator at Long range) in 1e/2e/3e/4e/5e/6e.

My man! My take aways:

1). Having difficulties above 6 in a d6 game seems silly.

2). While armor did work very differently in those editions, it's benefit was also extremely clear in those examples and made a difference.

[penllawen]

1). Having difficulties above 6 in a d6 game seems silly.

In mild defence, as a 2e vet, it did produce some amazing moments sometimes... I had a rigger trying to stop a jack-knifing 18-wheeler as it hurtled towards a cliff. He had to get something stupid like 14 or 15. He put everything into it, including his karma pool (omitted from the document but a little bit like Edge) and threw 20-odd dice down; we all held our breath as he picked up the sixes and rolled again... and again... and got it! Somehow. The odds against it were massive.

Also: smartlinks were well badass back then. -2 target number! Massive.

Still, though, I don't miss this mechanic. The fixed target number / floating dice count from 4e on are a lot more logical. 4e made a lot of good design decisions.

2). While armor did work very differently in those editions, it's benefit was also extremely clear in those examples and made a difference.

I concur.

[Banshee]

1). Having difficulties above 6 in a d6 game seems silly.

In mild defence, as a 2e vet, it did produce some amazing moments sometimes... I had a rigger trying to stop a jack-knifing 18-wheeler as it hurtled towards a cliff. He had to get something stupid like 14 or 15. He put everything into it, including his karma pool (omitted from the document but a little bit like Edge) and threw 20-odd dice down; we all held our breath as he picked up the sixes and rolled again... and again... and got it! Somehow. The odds against it were massive.

Also: smartlinks were well badass back then. -2 target number! Massive.

Still, though, I don't miss this mechanic. The fixed target number / floating dice count from 4e on are a lot more logical. 4e made a lot of good design decisions.

2). While armor did work very differently in those editions, it's benefit was also extremely clear in those examples and made a difference.

I concur.

Oh yeah the drama that 2e gave us is some my most remarkable memories in gaming.

I once got dropped down an elevator shaft and was looking at taking a 24D attack ... well we had a house rule that if you rolled a 25 you earned a karma ... I threw everything I could into that roll and just barely got that 1st success and the immediately spent the karma I earned to buy the 2and success and was able to walk away with just a serious wound.

[Lormyr]

Cover does nothing: Sometimes, the DR boost has no effect and the extra dice don't help because they didn't roll any hits / I already dodged anyway. Cover must be heavily boosted.

Drain does nothing: Sometimes, I cast weak spells and do not get into any risk drain-wise. Drain must be heavily boosted.

Focused Concentration does nothing: I can't keep 4 net hits on Increase Reflexes. Focused Concentration must be boosted.

I also wanted to touch on this in further detail now that I have the words to articulate my point correctly. The reason your examples are not comparable to the DR/armor issue is because your examples always give a bonus, which may or may not work to maximum effect depending on random number generation (your dice rolls). That is exceptionally different that providing a dead bonus that actually does nothing, and you know it.

[Hobbes]

More skin (daisy dukes or chain-link bikinis) in the artwork might attract a certain demographic of players. I state no opinion on whether this would be good or bad.

*looks through collection of character Artwork*

*notes ratio of Razorgirls to all others*

Is there a specific ratio there that qualifies this "Demographic" you speak of?   

[Shinobi Killfist]

I have no experience with previous systems other than 5e, so can't comment on that.

I got you.

This doc I made has a full worked example of a single combat resolution (Alice shoots Bob with an Ares Predator at Long range) in 1e/2e/3e/4e/5e/6e.

My man! My take aways:

1). Having difficulties above 6 in a d6 game seems silly.

2). While armor did work very differently in those editions, it's benefit was also extremely clear in those examples and made a difference.

There were Positives and negatives to the system. One of the big negatives was TN of 7 is the same as 6. But even something simple like cover ended up weird a +4 TN so TN 8 for most people or TN 6 if you have a smart gun link.  A fairly marginal difference to have the smart gun.But out in the open it was TN 2 vs TN 4 which is huge. IN SR2 they added a advanced smartgun link that reduced cover mods to 2. Difficulty scaled fast but outside of combat type tests 1 hit was all you needed, there wasn't a threshold of 5, it was TN 10.  In play at our table we didn't see that many TN6+ tests.  They happened, but the norm was 2-5. And when they did happen it was either a player choice like a 3rd burst from a SMG on a 3rd target, or it was a fairly dramatic moment.

Overall I prefer the static TN. Though I think choosing a TN of 5 was a mistake as it creates a need for too large of a pool difference to start seeing effects. Also instead of varying dice pools based on penalties and difficulty I would have preferred if what changed more was number of hits needed. If you always roll 14 dice for your firearms test tell the DM i got 6 hits and the DM has a base number to hit based on a dodge test modified by your long range, visibility etc and the lets you know how many net it would be quicker and easier IMO.