[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

That claim can't be taken off the table while it remains situationally true, though. Likes, dislikes, and preferences are an aside to that fact. In SR6, armor sometimes does nothing. It is fact.

I challenge SSDR or MC to tell me how armor would affect either of the very simple DR builds I listed above when being shot or stabbed by any printed traditional ballistic gun or non-energy melee weapon (beyond what I outlined - strength 9+ and katana or similar for the human, impossible for the troll). Likewise, I appreciate Banshee for acknowledging that armor sometimes does nothing. If I can just make these two see and admit it my work here is done. :p

Yes, Armor does nothing when you're not even shot at.  You win?

Ok that was cheeky, but it addresses what I see as a wrinkle in your argument.  You're going to the bother of bolding the word "armor" and saying it does nothing.  Well, ok. It INDIRECTLY helps, via the DR mechanic, and indirect help is still more than "nothing" in my book.

Does it do less than in 5e?  Yes, we agree.  Does it do a LOT less than in 5e? Yes, we agree.  Is that a good thing?  We disagree.


When it comes to the specific builds you are talking about, I presume you mean the ones you listed here?  And if so, well, I already addressed them.

But I'll do it again.

Armor-less human with 16 DR, or an armor-less troll with DR27.  What's the point in them wearing armor, you say?
Ok, first of all, admittedly, there are ALWAYS niches where the rules don't cover well.  And as I pointed out before, the armor mechanic works best in the ~68% percent of the instances that are within one standard deviation of "mean", and less well when you get into "extreme corner cases".  Naturally you'll want to argue with me about how we don't define "mean" and "extreme corner cases" in the same way, so let's just skip that then.

The armor-less uman with 16 DR is GAINING edge against AR 11 and under. Yes that's very good. But it's not as good as DR 16 + armor, because 12+AR is not at all hard to achieve, even before grouping up attacks.  So adding armor to that DR16 means you gain edge against that much MORE cases. Putting a basic armored jacket on means the AR now has to break 17 before you're not gaining edge.

Ok, the troll is the same situation only more extreme-y. Starting out that ridiculously high means, in practical terms, we have to be talking about some extreme ARs and/or grouped attacks before edge is denied to the defender.  A pack of cyberninjas with Monofilament Whips level drek to reasonably deny you edge.  But just like before, simply putting on a goddamned armor jacket now means even a pack attack from MFWs isn't taking away that bonus from the troll.

I think it was skalchemist who said it's a difference between diminishing returns and a linear scaling benefit.  Armor's impact isn't scaling linearly anymore.  And having diminishing returns isn't nothing.

[Lormyr]

You're going to the bother of bolding the word "armor" and saying it does nothing.  Well, ok. It INDIRECTLY helps, via the DR mechanic, and indirect help is still more than "nothing" in my book.

For clarity, I bold armor in effort to highlight I am speaking strictly of worn body armor and nothing else.

Does it do less than in 5e?  Yes, we agree.  Does it do a LOT less than in 5e? Yes, we agree.  Is that a good thing?  We disagree.

Yeah, that is all just a matter of opinion, but also totally irrelevant to my statement that armor sometimes does literally nothing.

When it comes to the specific builds you are talking about, I presume you mean the ones you listed here?  And if so, well, I already addressed them.

Yes, those are the ones, and if you addressed them I totally missed it. My bad there.

In rebuttal, I do not disagree with any of your assessments. You have valid points. But opinions and flavor aside, I want to talk about the hard mechanical facts. Do you agree or disagree that:

1). DR stacks infinitely higher than AR as far as the realm of PCs are concerned. Taking that troll to the extreme would yield another 12-16 DR from cyber replacement, and that is not even optimal maximization. For that, a grunt group of unrealistically high force spirits or a dragon or similar is the only thing that will punch through it.

2). There are some instances (and the word some can be argued for frequency, but that is again irrelevant to this truth) where the presence or absence of armor on a character is completely mechanically irrelevant.

I am not arguing whether I like the armor/DR system or not - we all know I am not a fan. I am arguing a strict, hard, mechanical truth. That is it.

Just like you and MC are bothered by people talking about armor in what you see as hyperbole terms, I am bothered by the two of you being unable or unwilling to admit (because I know you see it, you are both smart) that sometimes armor does do literally nothing.

[Michael Chandra]

Cover does nothing: Sometimes, the DR boost has no effect and the extra dice don't help because they didn't roll any hits / I already dodged anyway. Cover must be heavily boosted.

Drain does nothing: Sometimes, I cast weak spells and do not get into any risk drain-wise. Drain must be heavily boosted.

Focused Concentration does nothing: I can't keep 4 net hits on Increase Reflexes. Focused Concentration must be boosted.

Just because you don't see an effect in some scenarios, doesn't mean there's no effect at all. 'Under specific circumstances, there's no impact', is NOT the same as 'it does nothing'. As long as those two completely different claims are being equated as the same, the intent is clear: Bash SR6, truth be damned.

If you want to actually debate about 'I feel the rule needs changes because of the following cases', that's fine. But arguing special cases equate a universal truth, means there's no actual sincerity present.

As for the provided cases:
- BDA does not add Body, it only adds to your soak roll. So the unarmored human has 12 Defense Rating, not 16, even if their soak is 11.
- Even if the Human had 11 Body (thanks to Improved Body spell), 4 grunts with Smartlinked Ares Predators / Alphas would have a total AR of 15. They can use SA-mode for +1 damage and -2 AR without granting the Human Edge, because he's not wearing Armor. If he were wearing 2 Armor, even 5 grunts would not be able to gain 1 damage from SA-mode without granting him Edge.
- If the grunts were to use wireless Bipods on top of smartlinks, they gain +5 AR. So 10+5+group-bonus. That puts a single grunt at 15. Add Gas-Vent and they can do a BF with +2 damage without granting Edge. Shockpads make it 14 AR for 1 grunt, 18 AR for 5 grunts at BF mode. At that point, the Human needs to wear an additional 6 armor*(fixed) to force them into SA mode.

By the way, I'd say that 'none of these characters have armor' when they literally have armor implants, sounds like an extremely weird statement. Combined by the insistence that 'in some cases it makes no difference' equates 'it does nothing', I don't think there's any point to this 'debate'.

[PMárk]

Yes, it's not nothing, it's just not really impactfull. Gaining 1 edge is just not that much (or that hard to get) in this system and also doesn't scaling with better armor.

At best, it saves you 1 damage. Big whooop.

Even a version where better armor would give more edge that you could use only on that defense test would make it okay.

[Michael Chandra]

Oh: Add APDS to the Grunts, and they're at 20 AR. Since the Troll actually has 10 Body, not 14, the 4+8 Armor (assuming your GM allows those to stack, really) brings him to 23 DR. Suddenly he no longer gets Edge because he's not wearing clothes.

/micdrop

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well it's a big difference between claiming armor SOMETIMES does nothing, and armor (always/flatly) does nothing.


I've been refuting the latter, rather than the former.

Because, sure. If you have DR16 without armor, and you're hit by a feeble AR 6 attack, obviously adding armor isn't helping.  It doesn't HAVE to.

[Lormyr]

Oh: Add APDS to the Grunts, and they're at 20 AR. Since the Troll actually has 10 Body, not 14, the 4+8 Armor (assuming your GM allows those to stack, really) brings him to 23 DR. Suddenly he no longer gets Edge because he's not wearing clothes.

/micdrop

But they do stack, because the book explicitly states what does not, and those are not on that very short list. You might want to pick that mic back up.

Granted I missed that bone density does not apply to DR, that's my bad. I don't think we need to shuffle the goal posts here though, because DR stacking much higher than AR is pretty obvious outside the giant spirit gang/dragon or similar scenario. A PC cannot get AR as high as DR, outside of extreme karma mages for combat spells.

Your comments on cover, drain, and focused concentration are non-equivalent and you know it.

When I say armor, I am referring strictly to worn body armor. My argument is not "DR sometimes does nothing", because that always does something.

Just because you don't see an effect in some scenarios, doesn't mean there's no effect at all. 'Under specific circumstances, there's no impact', is NOT the same as 'it does nothing'. As long as those two completely different claims are being equated as the same, the intent is clear: Bash SR6, truth be damned.

You also cannot say that of me any more than I can say that you always defend SR6. I have seen you disagreeing with implementation, and you have seen posts of me praising some implementation, even if I am not an overall fan. So drop that shit already.

[Lormyr]

Well it's a big difference between claiming armor SOMETIMES does nothing, and armor (always/flatly) does nothing.


I've been refuting the latter, rather than the former.

Because, sure. If you have DR16 without armor, and you're hit by a feeble AR 6 attack, obviously adding armor isn't helping.  It doesn't HAVE to.

I can see how that would be an important distinction for you, and I have no issue with that. For me, context is more important than what exactly is said. So hearing "armor does nothing" doesn't ruffle my feathers, because I am aware than can often be accurate.

Part of the issue for many people who criticize the implementation, and this applies to me as well, as that it feels like armor does very little/not as much as it should. And this is what Banshee was pointing out earlier, that it does less in the game because on an out of game level they lowered damage for it to be less impactful in the game. The end result just doesn't feel right to many, but it is not inherently wrong or anything. It's just a matter of tastes.

But speaking of tastes, and why I am such a stickler for my position here, is that adding body armor to something (no matter how durable) should always increase durability in a meaningful matter, in particular in a game where getting hit almost certainly results in damage taken.

My $0.02 there.

[adzling]

Look per banshees own admission wearing a bikini and an armored suit are *almost* functionally equivalent due to the reduction in damage codes and the fact that armor confers at most -1/3 point of damage per attack.

That’s clearly a huge departure from anything approaching reality.

If you like that bs awesome, good for you.

However I don’t like eating those types of sandwiches thank you.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Seems like the exact same complaints, even the exact same arguments could be made by people with a 2e/3e context about the 4e/5e armor mechanics.

Armor doesn't reduce the TN, so it sometimes does nothing!  If those extra soak dice don't turn up any hits, then armor DID NOTHING!

Of course that's ridiculous.  Just because the extra dice didn't have any mechanical result in THIS CASE, it still could have/would have helped.


Swap "armor doesn't reduce the TN" with "armor doesn't add to soak pools", and "just because the soak pool dice didn't result in any hits doesn't mean it did nothing" with "just because the bonus DR didn't result in a change in the Edge check doesn't mean the armor did nothing" and it's the exact same argument separated by 2 edition changes.

[adzling]

Stainless that comment is not worthy of your level of knowledge.

Please give it some more thought in relation to the *actual* effect of armor in prior editions and edit accordingly.

[Lormyr]

I have no experience with previous systems other than 5e, so can't comment on that.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

What's incorrect?

1e armor: rating=autohits on the soak
2e/3e armor: rating = reduction in Target Number to achieve successes on the soak test
4e/5e armor: rating = bonus dice to soak


Looking at 4e/5e from the perspective of someone playing 2e/3e, yes absolutely armor can potentially have "no effect" because hits are always pegged to an effective target number of 5+.  Sure you get bonus dice, but sometimes those bonus dice won't result in a benefit whereas the TN always being lowered in 2e/3e would have at least been in place.

You only have to make minor edits to that complaint for it to be about 6we from people who preferred the 4e/5e approach to armor.

Looking at 6we from the perspective of someone playing 4e/5e, yes absolutely armor can potentially have "no effect" because it adds to DR rather than soak pool. Sure you get bonus DR, but sometimes that bonus DR won't result in a benefit whereas the soak pool being increased in 4e/5e would have always at least been in place.


I mean, demonstrably... inarguably... armor adds to DR.  It never does nothing.  Granted, increasing the DR may in turn as a 2nd order effect not give a mechanical benefit*, just as bonus dice in 4e/5e might not have resulted in any hits.  But it still gave a benefit, even if that benefit technically didn't result in a positive change in the game state.  Sure, it's a ton more probable that an increase in DR might result in no benefit than  a shooka-shooka's worth of bonus dice results in no additional hits, but the principle is the same.  And it's a meaningless difference anyway, as everyone agrees that armor does less in 6we than in 5e.  It's supposed to.

*and let's not pretend that increasing DR for no positive change is anything more than a corner case scenario.  Most of the time, yes increasing your DR actually means something.

[Hobbes]

In 5e you could increase Soak to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you could buy enough hits to shake off any damage from a gun.  In 6e you can increase DR to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you've exceeded any Attack Rating you're likely to see.

As a GM I didn't like the huge variance in PC defense and soak pools that you found at 5E tables.  But, IMO, 6E was an over correction as significant investments in DR don't pay "enough" to be worth it.  Dermal Armor, Ortho Skin, Mystic Armor, all really expensive choices for what you gain.

Hopefully future 6E supplements will give some Quality or Edge Actions or something for the high end DR builds.  Something that triggers at +6/+8/+10 or whatever.

Shrug it off!  3 Edge, if your DR is 8 or more higher than an incoming attack that attack does no Damage.

Quality You got nuthin!  If your DR is 6 or more higher than an incoming attack gain +4 Dice on a Charisma + Intimidate check.

ect, ect, ect.   Lots of ways to use the mechanic to make a higher DR mechanically desirable if they wanted to.

[Banshee]

In 5e you could increase Soak to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you could buy enough hits to shake off any damage from a gun.  In 6e you can increase DR to no mechanical benefit as after a certain point you've exceeded any Attack Rating you're likely to see.

As a GM I didn't like the huge variance in PC defense and soak pools that you found at 5E tables.  But, IMO, 6E was an over correction as significant investments in DR don't pay "enough" to be worth it.  Dermal Armor, Ortho Skin, Mystic Armor, all really expensive choices for what you gain.

Hopefully future 6E supplements will give some Quality or Edge Actions or something for the high end DR builds.  Something that triggers at +6/+8/+10 or whatever.

Shrug it off!  3 Edge, if your DR is 8 or more higher than an incoming attack that attack does no Damage.

Quality You got nuthin!  If your DR is 6 or more higher than an incoming attack gain +4 Dice on a Charisma + Intimidate check.

ect, ect, ect.   Lots of ways to use the mechanic to make a higher DR mechanically desirable if they wanted to.

Insider tease ... I think you will like Firing Squad