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New GM, advice

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virgil

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« Reply #15 on: <02-20-13/1222:01> »
Most people I know would rage for being accused of lying like that. Fortunately, I am both wise & merciful. Let's make it non-anecdotal, straight from the horse's mouth...
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Let me clarify. When I say I dislike all-in specialization, I mean I dislike it when there's heavy disparity if you don't ignore everything but your chosen specialization at chargen, which BP-then-Karma does. Leaving it alone is not leaving players free to choose what they think is appropriate, it's a tacit acceptance that you're punishing people who want to start with Rating 3 in a skill. Yes, a player who wishes to be the best at their chosen role is going to specialize all-out in it, and that's perfectly acceptable, even inevitable with karma or BP.

Hmm...I'll have to think about that, GiraffeShaman. It's an idea, but it'll take a bit to figure out why there are employees inside the executive suite; as it is just a storage locker.
« Last Edit: <02-20-13/1434:31> by virgil »

GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #16 on: <02-20-13/1226:13> »
Quote
Hmm...I'll have to think about that, GiraffeShaman. It's an idea, but it'll take a bit to figure out why there are employees inside the executive suite; as it is just a storage locker.
Hint. One is a male giraffe, one is a female giraffe...

RHat

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« Reply #17 on: <02-20-13/1828:42> »
First, I for one accused you of nothing - I simply made an observation.  Second, the guy who wrote that post is, well, wrong about a number of things.  For one thing, charging for metatypes in Karmagen would make it well and truly borked because, due to curved costs, you'd be paying for your metatype twice - not a fair thing to do.  It does, in effect, balance out except when playing directly against type - in which case the reduced potential is enough of an inhibition.  Amount of Karma required would be a valid point but for the fact that changing the Karma budget is trivial.

His description would have you believing that RC is some universally reviled piece of trash that is almost always banned - does not meet with my observations.  And, frankly, the tone in his post is a bit revealing - people who are angry are not dealing in the pure and honest truth, but rather one run through the filter of that emotion whether they want it to be or not (human memory kind of sucks that way).  There are some issues with Metavariants (see: Oni), sure, but dismissing AI's and Free Spirits as unplayable is erroneous.  AI's are as playable as Full Immersion characters - it takes some work, but in making that character choice you've signed on for that.  The failure of Karmagen to account for playing some of these choices may be part of his issue, however.  Haven't seen much of Free Spirits in play to fully comment on their playability, but nothing I can see would make them truly unplayable (save, perhaps, for the cost to play them).

In strict logical terms, authority does not equal accuracy.  Form your own opinions.  Karmagen, for its part, is seen by a lot of people as being far superior to BP - though I will note that as written, it fails to account for some of the options in RC, like shapeshifters.

Thirdly, I never said that you shouldn't adjust the relative cost of skills and attributes.  I said that skills were the wrong lever to pull here - it is attribute costs that should be changed to a multiplier of about 6 or 7.  Halving skill costs is a bad idea on its face, and you cannot simply use the number of skills the attribute can potentially influence as a barometer - to any real character, only a small number of those will actually be relevant.

The curved costs of karma have a clear and direct purpose - to nudge players into generalizing a bit more, so they're not screwed as soon as they need to do something outside of everyone's specialty.  Converting things to a flat cost can cause some serious issues.

In the end, play the game before trying to "fix" it, because you need direct experience first so that you have an awareness of what might need to change - and I'd be saying that to anyone listing off a bunch of starting houserules for their first time playing the system, not just when they're coming from a number of misconceptions (like when you call the Matrix rules utterly broken). 
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emsquared

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« Reply #18 on: <02-20-13/2011:10> »
Most people I know would rage for being accused of lying like that. Fortunately, I am both wise & merciful. Let's make it non-anecdotal, straight from the horse's mouth...
Then most people you know are immature internet-knobs, if being asked to substantiate a claim sends them into a rage. You not doing so doesn't mean you're wise or merciful, it means you're not an immature internet-knob.

So, Karmagen is borked because 750 is too much Karma and they didn't charge for Metatypes? The former is nothing more than opinion, and furthermore can be "fixed" by 1st grade level subtraction. That's irrelevant though because this obviously isn't a problem you had with Karmagen, because you have raised the power level - beyond what Karmagen does - with your house-rules. The latter part of his statement is a commonly known short coming, that not everyone has a problem with but if you do, it can be satisfactorily "fixed" by charging Metatype BP cost in Karma.

Mainly what they're complaining about in that thread is Metavariants, Drakes, Infected, yada, yada - and while those are a large part of the book, the most common and widely used parts (Posi/Neg Qualities, Karmagen, Contacts and Lifestyles) are, well, some of the most commonly used rules in all of supplementary SR books. So, yeah, if you want to turn Shadowrun into Freakshow-run, it's gonna leave you pissed - but not everything in it is shite, indeed, the "core" parts of the book are fantastic editions.

Not to mention it sounds like some of those people do seem to have personal beefs with CGL. Can someone be unbiased when their contributions ended up on the cutting room floor and they therefore perhaps didn't get paid as much, or found out the artists make more? Rhetorical question.
When I say I dislike all-in specialization, I mean I dislike it when there's heavy disparity if you don't ignore everything but your chosen specialization at chargen, which BP-then-Karma does. Leaving it alone is not leaving players free to choose what they think is appropriate, it's a tacit acceptance that you're punishing people who want to start with Rating 3 in a skill.
Presumably the BP > Karma method is the vanilla method for a specific choice made to align with the vision of the devs. If you don't like that vision (which maybe does favor specialization?) then use Karmagen. Unified chargen and advancement means no exploitation, no de-facto missing out - no favoring of anything, accept possibly meta-humans - but only if those meta-humans don't go all-in, as you so dislike. And as Karmagen is demonstrably not borked (or rather that it can be easily unborked with some addition/subtraction one time math), there's no reason to do what you're doing.
« Last Edit: <02-20-13/2014:20> by emsquared »

virgil

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« Reply #19 on: <02-20-13/2110:23> »
and I'd be saying that to anyone listing off a bunch of starting houserules for their first time playing the system, not just when they're coming from a number of misconceptions (like when you call the Matrix rules utterly broken).
Wait, deciding the Matrix rules are broken is a misconception on their/my part?

RHat

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« Reply #20 on: <02-20-13/2119:51> »
and I'd be saying that to anyone listing off a bunch of starting houserules for their first time playing the system, not just when they're coming from a number of misconceptions (like when you call the Matrix rules utterly broken).
Wait, deciding the Matrix rules are broken is a misconception on their/my part?

Assuming the standard definition of broken?  Quite.
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #21 on: <02-20-13/2209:46> »

Okay, so...not having played the game, you try to houserule the most complex aspects of the system, ask on the forums for input, then get cranky and argumentative with veteran players who unanimously disagree with your proposals?

Hmmm.

Good luck with your game.

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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #22 on: <02-20-13/2217:21> »
To put it a more polite way:

You have never played/run this game before, and have no experience with anything within the rules.  I can understand getting upset with those who posted hostile remarks, but most of the first few posts were warnings about not changing anything unless and until you have some experience with the base system.  When you have done that, then you will be able to see what the changes mentioned will do to the game, and can better decide whether the house rules mentioned by others will be worth adding to the system.

Until you have played, you really won't have any common ground with the veteran players/GM's here.  Many of which are cautioning against making such strong, broad, and sweeping changes.

If you really want to put these changes in, the veterans can tell you what you are in for.  So long as no one is getting snarky, please don't get hostile or argumentative with the ones just trying to give you the advice you asked for.  (Remember, you DID ask us for advice.)
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virgil

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« Reply #23 on: <02-20-13/2221:46> »
and I'd be saying that to anyone listing off a bunch of starting houserules for their first time playing the system, not just when they're coming from a number of misconceptions (like when you call the Matrix rules utterly broken).
Wait, deciding the Matrix rules are broken is a misconception on their/my part?
Assuming the standard definition of broken?  Quite.
I don't need to play/run a bunch of Shadowrun to see the flaws in the Matrix rules, and how they can readily and thoroughly break; reading comprehension on my own part showed me that.

Also, I have played this game before. I stated I had never DM'd for it, which is different. I do appreciate the more constructive input, and am actually thinking about things on my end.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #24 on: <02-20-13/2228:50> »
Matrix rules have always been hard to follow.  This edition is the friendliest so far.  If that tells you something about previous editions, think on this:  Each edition previous was more difficult than the one that followed (I.E. 3rd: harder, 2nd: even harder, 1st: ZOMG what? this is it's own dungeon crawl separate from the other players?)

And one thing I have always said about technology:  It uplifts those who embrace it, and condemns those who condemn it.  There is no such thing as "balance" with technology.  Each iteration grants more of an advantage than the previous one, and those who do not adapt will be left behind in the cold.  This is true today, and will be much more so 60+ years from now.
There is no overkill.

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RHat

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« Reply #25 on: <02-20-13/2238:11> »
and I'd be saying that to anyone listing off a bunch of starting houserules for their first time playing the system, not just when they're coming from a number of misconceptions (like when you call the Matrix rules utterly broken).
Wait, deciding the Matrix rules are broken is a misconception on their/my part?
Assuming the standard definition of broken?  Quite.
I don't need to play/run a bunch of Shadowrun to see the flaws in the Matrix rules, and how they can readily and thoroughly break; reading comprehension on my own part showed me that.

Oh, do go on.  In what way do you perceive them as being broken?
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virgil

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« Reply #26 on: <02-20-13/2257:37> »
and I'd be saying that to anyone listing off a bunch of starting houserules for their first time playing the system, not just when they're coming from a number of misconceptions (like when you call the Matrix rules utterly broken).
Wait, deciding the Matrix rules are broken is a misconception on their/my part?
Assuming the standard definition of broken?  Quite.
I don't need to play/run a bunch of Shadowrun to see the flaws in the Matrix rules, and how they can readily and thoroughly break; reading comprehension on my own part showed me that.
Oh, do go on.  In what way do you perceive them as being broken?
There is quite the list, let's go easy and use the first one that comes to mind, icon detection. It's a simple action and a Matrix Perception Test for each and every icon on a node to even know what it is (SR4A, p228); using a browse or datasearch will not work, because it's only going to tell you the node, not the specific icon. All you have to do to protect a node is fill it with a thousand open folders, and it will take someone weeks to even know who to target.

This is only an inkling. There are at least four other major problems I can readily think of that either break concepts or bring the whole Matrix dance to a screeching halt.
« Last Edit: <02-20-13/2259:53> by virgil »

RHat

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« Reply #27 on: <02-20-13/2304:33> »
"This action can be used on any large amount of data, such as a list of icons in a node" - SR4A, page 230, Data Search action.  You might use your Analyze program instead of Browse, but that's the action.  Know how's about you actually list your issues?
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #28 on: <02-20-13/2311:50> »
"You can't make a system foolproof. Fools are much too creative."

The rules cannot, and shouldn't have to, account for every contingency.

It is the role of both the GM and the Players to use common sense, discretion, and good judgement to ensure fair play and avoid abusing the system.

If someone subverts the Matrix rules by dumping thousands of useless, open folders, the GM should rule that the node either crashes and/or is too cluttered up to be used effectively.

Dump a thousand shortcuts on your desktop and try to make good use of it...

-Jn-
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RHat

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« Reply #29 on: <02-20-13/2314:52> »
"You can't make a system foolproof. Fools are much too creative."

The rules cannot, and shouldn't have to, account for every contingency.

It is the role of both the GM and the Players to use common sense, discretion, and good judgement to ensure fair play and avoid abusing the system.

If someone subverts the Matrix rules by dumping thousands of useless, open folders, the GM should rule that the node either crashes and/or is too cluttered up to be used effectively.

Dump a thousand shortcuts on your desktop and try to make good use of it...

-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

Dude, check the Data Search table.  All that would do, unless it's a Nuke program, is delay someone by a few seconds.
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