[virgil]

"This action can be used on any large amount of data, such as a list of icons in a node" - SR4A, page 230, Data Search action.  You might use your Analyze program instead of Browse, but that's the action.  Know how's about you actually list your issues?

That gives you a list of icons in a node, that doesn't tell you which icon is which. It is explicit that you need to take a simple action to determine whether one icon is a Program, a Persona, a Sprite, an Arrow, or even Colonel Sanders's Secret Recipe.

And let's not forget the Denial of Service rules. You don't even need to succeed, as even failing to hack will make alerts, and a node will just plain shut down with too many alerts. If your goal is for a node to not even be on, which would be very handy in many cases, there's not really much they can do.

EDIT: At best, assuming you used that incorrect reading, it's still an entire Initiative Pass to find/identify ONE icon; presuming all icons are in near plain-view (Threshold 2). If you somehow care about more than one icon, which you very well should, things are going to get hairy very quick; "did I remember to search for a third Black Hamm...ow"

[JoeNapalm]

I get what you are saying, RHat.

Just trying to make a point.

There's a big difference between a broken system, and a system that can be broken. All systems can be intentionally subverted.

If you're the GM, and you set out to break the game, or allow your players to break the game, I don't have sympathy if you then hold up the jagged pieces and cry to the uncaring skies that it is broken.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[RHat]

"This action can be used on any large amount of data, such as a list of icons in a node" - SR4A, page 230, Data Search action.  You might use your Analyze program instead of Browse, but that's the action.  Know how's about you actually list your issues?

That gives you a list of icons in a node, that doesn't tell you which icon is which. It is explicit that you need to take a simple action to determine whether one icon is a Program, a Persona, a Sprite, an Arrow, or even Colonel Sanders's Secret Recipe.

And let's not forget the Denial of Service rules. You don't even need to succeed, as even failing to hack will make alerts, and a node will just plain shut down with too many alerts. If your goal is for a node to not even be on, which would be very handy in many cases, there's not really much they can do.

EDIT: At best, assuming you used that incorrect reading, it's still an entire Initiative Pass to identify ONE icon; presuming all icons are in near plain-view (Threshold 2). If you somehow care about more than one icon, which you very well should, things are going to get hairy very quick.

It doesn't "give" you the list, it looks through the list based on whatever criteria - Data Search is a very flexible action; if you know enough about the icons you're looking for, you can find them with one Data Search.  Denial of Service will very rarely achieve what you want to do; most times the node being off is the opposite of helpful.

[JoeNapalm]

Distributed Denial of Service Attacks (ddoS)
Unwired 101

A node under DDOS attack has three options. First, it can spoof its access ID, so that the DDOS can no longer find its target. The node must be offline (not meshed with other nodes) to switch access ID. Second, it can try to block access from botnet access IDs or attempt to filter out all flooding traffic. The success of these latter options is largely up to the gamemaster’s discretion.

Emphasis mine.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[virgil]

"This action can be used on any large amount of data, such as a list of icons in a node" - SR4A, page 230, Data Search action.  You might use your Analyze program instead of Browse, but that's the action.  Know how's about you actually list your issues?

That gives you a list of icons in a node, that doesn't tell you which icon is which. It is explicit that you need to take a simple action to determine whether one icon is a Program, a Persona, a Sprite, an Arrow, or even Colonel Sanders's Secret Recipe.

And let's not forget the Denial of Service rules. You don't even need to succeed, as even failing to hack will make alerts, and a node will just plain shut down with too many alerts. If your goal is for a node to not even be on, which would be very handy in many cases, there's not really much they can do.

EDIT: At best, assuming you used that incorrect reading, it's still an entire Initiative Pass to identify ONE icon; presuming all icons are in near plain-view (Threshold 2). If you somehow care about more than one icon, which you very well should, things are going to get hairy very quick.

It doesn't "give" you the list, it looks through the list based on whatever criteria - Data Search is a very flexible action; if you know enough about the icons you're looking for, you can find them with one Data Search.  Denial of Service will very rarely achieve what you want to do; most times the node being off is the opposite of helpful.

That security system or rigger-controlled drone being disconnected from everything is totally the opposite of helpful. And that's still ONE icon's worth of identification; if there's more than one piece of information, you're in trouble. Knowing which Icon is the attacking IC is an initiative pass or longer, unless there's more than one, then the time frame is multiplied; which shouldn't even work for Data Search, because you cannot Google "every icon I care about."

[RHat]

"This action can be used on any large amount of data, such as a list of icons in a node" - SR4A, page 230, Data Search action.  You might use your Analyze program instead of Browse, but that's the action.  Know how's about you actually list your issues?

That gives you a list of icons in a node, that doesn't tell you which icon is which. It is explicit that you need to take a simple action to determine whether one icon is a Program, a Persona, a Sprite, an Arrow, or even Colonel Sanders's Secret Recipe.

And let's not forget the Denial of Service rules. You don't even need to succeed, as even failing to hack will make alerts, and a node will just plain shut down with too many alerts. If your goal is for a node to not even be on, which would be very handy in many cases, there's not really much they can do.

EDIT: At best, assuming you used that incorrect reading, it's still an entire Initiative Pass to identify ONE icon; presuming all icons are in near plain-view (Threshold 2). If you somehow care about more than one icon, which you very well should, things are going to get hairy very quick.

It doesn't "give" you the list, it looks through the list based on whatever criteria - Data Search is a very flexible action; if you know enough about the icons you're looking for, you can find them with one Data Search.  Denial of Service will very rarely achieve what you want to do; most times the node being off is the opposite of helpful.

That security system or rigger-controlled drone being disconnected from everything is totally the opposite of helpful. And that's still ONE icon's worth of identification; if there's more than one piece of information, you're in trouble. Knowing which Icon is the attacking IC is an initiative pass or longer, unless there's more than one, then the time frame is multiplied; which shouldn't even work for Data Search, because you cannot Google "every icon I care about."

You search for IC using offensive programs against the relevant target(s).

[virgil]

A node under DDOS attack has three options. First, it can spoof its access ID, so that the DDOS can no longer find its target. The node must be offline (not meshed with other nodes) to switch access ID. Second, it can try to block access from botnet access IDs or attempt to filter out all flooding traffic. The success of these latter options is largely up to the gamemaster’s discretion.

And that brings up the fact you can automagically stop ALL hackers by messing with Access IDs. You only make Matrix Perception tests on icons on the same node. If you need the Access ID of something, for example, on the node to get in the node, there's nothing you can do. Don't forget, nodes can totally refuse you without rolling dice for not having an Access ID (Unwired p. 99) or for having an Access ID they don't like (Unwired, p. 101), which can totally be "every Access ID that isn't the one I accept." Before you try to be clever and go on about spoofing one of those Access IDs, you need to share a node with one of the icons that already has one of the accepted Access IDs. If a system doesn't put any of its icons that are allowed into the restricted areas into non-restricted areas, you can't hack it.

[RHat]

Sniffer first, than spoof.  Simple enough - that kind of logon script is a delaying action, sure, but easy enough to get around.

[virgil]

And if the two nodes communicate (awfully convenient they're being) behind a node with its own Access ID stored inside, sniffer won't work. And this rabbit hole can just keep getting deeper. By the time you finally get deep enough, the Access IDs are reset to something new and you're kicked back to the starting line.

[RHat]

No, because Access ID's are hardware bound and very difficult to permanently change.  Which means that you wind up having everyone spoofing in, which is a massive vulnerability.

And you can get into the intermediary node and then your life easier.

I'm sorry, but you simply do not understand the Matrix rules.

[virgil]

So, anyone up for actually being constructive, rather than putting down and insulting the new guy? I wasn't looking for affirmation of my house rules, and was honestly more interested in advice with the setting/plot.

[All4BigGuns]

So, anyone up for actually being constructive, rather than putting down and insulting the new guy? I wasn't looking for affirmation of my house rules, and was honestly more interested in advice with the setting/plot.

No one is insulting you, but rather advising you to run with the actual rules first instead of some weird collection of house rules that do seem to be inspired by the "CGL Bashing Trolls".

[Novocrane]

Spoof chips are small firmware add-ons that automatically generate a new access ID for a vehicle node (or any device) on a regular basis,

My favourite node mod.

Personally, I wouldn't consider a Hardware + Logic (2) or Hacking + Software (2) test to be very difficult, though.

[virgil]

No, because Access ID's are hardware bound and very difficult to permanently change.  Which means that you wind up having everyone spoofing in, which is a massive vulnerability.

And you can get into the intermediary node and then your life easier.

I'm sorry, but you simply do not understand the Matrix rules.

Did you not read what I said? There's no traffic to sniff if the nodes communicate behind a wired node you don't have the Access ID to.

[virgil]

So, anyone up for actually being constructive, rather than putting down and insulting the new guy? I wasn't looking for affirmation of my house rules, and was honestly more interested in advice with the setting/plot.

No one is insulting you, but rather advising you to run with the actual rules first instead of some weird collection of house rules that do seem to be inspired by the "CGL Bashing Trolls".

Then he needs to work on his delivery, because his tone has been dripping; especially with the obvious assumptions that I have no first-hand experience with the system (which is subjective, at best).