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Technomancer is always hacking the guns

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MarmaladeEffect

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« on: <03-04-13/1418:01> »
So one of my players is playing a technomancer. I try to give him interesting stuff to do - lots of opportunities to hack unusual things, even in combat-heavy scenes. However, he just goes and hacks the guns of whoever they're fighting. It works really well, and I can only believably pull "this guy has a gun without Matrix connectivity" or "this guy's got a longbow" every so often (especially since there's a longbow wielder on the team), but it sort of feels like I'm doing something wrong - if nothing else, it gets pretty repetitive. It also means that non-mage ranged opponents become melee opponents pretty fast.

emsquared

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« Reply #1 on: <03-04-13/1442:01> »
Why do you think disabling wireless on a weapon would be so uncommon? Have your baddies skinlink their smartgun systems (this should be the norm for anyone who's more savvy than a Ganger, I'd think), at least that puts a commlink in between the Techno and it, should at least slow him down.

Mirikon

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« Reply #2 on: <03-04-13/1445:45> »
First, is he hacking the guns directly, or the shooter's PAN? If it is the gun directly, then the signal range is not going to be that high (Signal 0 or 1). This means the TM has to be up in the guy's face to do his hacking.

Second, is he doing this in VR or AR? VR may be quicker, but remember it leaves you all kinds of vulnerable.

Third, why don't any of these guys have basic matrix security? The gun nodes will all be Hidden, natch, and their PANs should be, as well. Extended test to find them. Analyze program on the PAN and a decent Firewall helps keep hackers out. Throwing some encryption or IC on there will slow him down. Not to mention skinlinking the gun. None of these are expensive.
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RHat

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« Reply #3 on: <03-04-13/1956:55> »
First, is he hacking the guns directly, or the shooter's PAN? If it is the gun directly, then the signal range is not going to be that high (Signal 0 or 1). This means the TM has to be up in the guy's face to do his hacking.

Second, is he doing this in VR or AR? VR may be quicker, but remember it leaves you all kinds of vulnerable.

Third, why don't any of these guys have basic matrix security? The gun nodes will all be Hidden, natch, and their PANs should be, as well. Extended test to find them. Analyze program on the PAN and a decent Firewall helps keep hackers out. Throwing some encryption or IC on there will slow him down. Not to mention skinlinking the gun. None of these are expensive.

Mutual Signal Range is not required.  Routing is an option.

However, these guys should have their PAN slaved to their commlinks, and their commlinks should have decent security.  You cannot directly hack into a slaved device, though you can spoof it.  To hack it you have to hack the master node.  If the enemy is running a centralized tacnet, the master node is probably gonna be a freaking fortress.
« Last Edit: <03-04-13/1958:31> by RHat »
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Mithlas

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« Reply #4 on: <03-04-13/2051:25> »
However, these guys should have their PAN slaved to their commlinks, and their commlinks should have decent security.  You cannot directly hack into a slaved device, though you can spoof it.  To hack it you have to hack the master node.  If the enemy is running a centralized tacnet, the master node is probably gonna be a freaking fortress.
Not necessarily - tech-savvy paramilitaries might have the desire to string together a tacnet but wouldn't have massive firewalls with black IC roaming around. Still, you've got a point.

I can't really think of what else a technomancer would be hacking if a combat situation is starting up. What else would he use? Skinlink echo and melee them, disabling their gun and then messing them up in successive IPs? Mind Over Machine echo and send parked cars into pursuing gangers, or into their guns and instruct the guns to eject clips and go into a diagnostic mode? Not sure how viable these would be in actual combat situations.

RHat

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« Reply #5 on: <03-04-13/2103:42> »
However, these guys should have their PAN slaved to their commlinks, and their commlinks should have decent security.  You cannot directly hack into a slaved device, though you can spoof it.  To hack it you have to hack the master node.  If the enemy is running a centralized tacnet, the master node is probably gonna be a freaking fortress.
Not necessarily - tech-savvy paramilitaries might have the desire to string together a tacnet but wouldn't have massive firewalls with black IC roaming around. Still, you've got a point.

I can't really think of what else a technomancer would be hacking if a combat situation is starting up. What else would he use? Skinlink echo and melee them, disabling their gun and then messing them up in successive IPs? Mind Over Machine echo and send parked cars into pursuing gangers, or into their guns and instruct the guns to eject clips and go into a diagnostic mode? Not sure how viable these would be in actual combat situations.

I said centralized, which means everything goes through the primary node.  Your example would be decentralized.
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usefulidiot

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« Reply #6 on: <03-05-13/0218:19> »
Why not simply equip some of your bad guys with weapons that are not using a smartlink. A simple, basic revoler, shotgun, or whatever you choose has nothing that can be hacked. Another option would be to have them retaliate with melee combat when he hacks their guns.

RHat

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« Reply #7 on: <03-05-13/0314:46> »
Why not simply equip some of your bad guys with weapons that are not using a smartlink. A simple, basic revoler, shotgun, or whatever you choose has nothing that can be hacked. Another option would be to have them retaliate with melee combat when he hacks their guns.

So, make the enemies less effective?  :P
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Glyph

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« Reply #8 on: <03-05-13/0349:24> »
I think the hacking cyberware/guns thing is kind of contrived, myself.  Who the heck would leave a weapon's wireless turned on when they know it can be hacked?  Same thing for 'ware like wired reflexes.  Maybe if turning wireless off wasn't so simple, or skinlinks weren't so cheap, this Ghost In The Shell-type hacking would make more logical sense.  But the way the rules are now, the only people with wireless turned on should be gangers like emsquared said, or people with a complicated PAN setup that can't really be hacked within the relatively short time from of combat.

Shadowjack

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« Reply #9 on: <03-05-13/0538:19> »
Hacking guns and ware is lame imo. I don't do it in my games. I can see why others like it, but I don't. I think it would be more fun for the Technomancer to actually participate in combat instead of just hacking stuff during it. And before anyone says "that makes Street Samurai op", eh, I find it boring so I don't do it :P
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Mirikon

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« Reply #10 on: <03-05-13/1946:02> »
I'll just say, Shadowjack, that since TMs don't have access to initiative boosters unless a mage casts a spell on them, they take (potentially quite addicting) combat drugs, or hamstring their power with ware, then being in AR/VR and hacking things is probably the best contribution they can make to combat. Sure, if they submerge a couple times and choose the right echoes, they can grab an echo that gives them extra IPs in the meat, but that's a LONG way down the road.

Mutual Signal Range is not required.  Routing is an option.

However, these guys should have their PAN slaved to their commlinks, and their commlinks should have decent security.  You cannot directly hack into a slaved device, though you can spoof it.  To hack it you have to hack the master node.  If the enemy is running a centralized tacnet, the master node is probably gonna be a freaking fortress.
You still have to be subscribed to a node within signal range of the node you want to hack, RHat, and be able to find that node in the first place. Also, you don't slave the PAN to the commlink. The PAN is run through the commlink. If you mean that they should be slaving the gun to the PAN, then yes, you're absolutely correct, which is why it is almost always easier to hack the PAN than it is the gun itself.

This is separate from the issues of a tacnet. In a centralized tacnet, the PAN itself is not slaved to the tacnet, but the tacnet is run out of the centralized node. The individual PANs of the tacnet members can still be hacked on their own. Of course, if a hacker gets into one of those PANs, they can then use the tacnet connection as a way into the central node, which they would have to then hack in order to compromise the tacnet proper.

I think the hacking cyberware/guns thing is kind of contrived, myself.  Who the heck would leave a weapon's wireless turned on when they know it can be hacked?  Same thing for 'ware like wired reflexes.  Maybe if turning wireless off wasn't so simple, or skinlinks weren't so cheap, this Ghost In The Shell-type hacking would make more logical sense.  But the way the rules are now, the only people with wireless turned on should be gangers like emsquared said, or people with a complicated PAN setup that can't really be hacked within the relatively short time from of combat.
I've always said that the idea of hacking an implant or gun directly is downright silly. You (or a device you're subscribed to) need to be within 3m of someone's cyberware to hack it. That is NOT subtle. What happens, unless someone is blatantly disregarding the rules, is that your PAN gets hacked, and they play with things from there, since all those devices are subscribed to your PAN. What this means is that practicing even basic matrix security can keep you from being an easy target.

But let's just be perfectly honest here. Just like it is theoretically possible to rob Fort Knox, it is possible to hack any system, no matter how secure. All you need is time, a bit of luck, and good enough programs. It is the 'time' thing that makes even a rating 3 Firewall and Rating 3 Analyze and Encrypt programs enough generally to keep you from being hacked long enough to get through combat. That Rating 3 Firewall can come from one of a couple stock operating systems in the core book, and even if you don't get them as part of a package, the Analyze and Encrypt programs together would only run 300 nuyen. Compared to the cost of your ware, that's a pittance. Remember, the secret to not getting robbed isn't to have an impenetrable fortress, it is to make it inconvenient enough that they will likely get caught before they can get in and get the goods, while another guy down the road is a much softer target. Which is why, barring sammies who don't know how to secure their PAN, it is simpler usually to hack the car nearby and run over the sammy.
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RHat

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« Reply #11 on: <03-05-13/2039:30> »
Mutual Signal Range is not required.  Routing is an option.

However, these guys should have their PAN slaved to their commlinks, and their commlinks should have decent security.  You cannot directly hack into a slaved device, though you can spoof it.  To hack it you have to hack the master node.  If the enemy is running a centralized tacnet, the master node is probably gonna be a freaking fortress.
You still have to be subscribed to a node within signal range of the node you want to hack, RHat, and be able to find that node in the first place. Also, you don't slave the PAN to the commlink. The PAN is run through the commlink. If you mean that they should be slaving the gun to the PAN, then yes, you're absolutely correct, which is why it is almost always easier to hack the PAN than it is the gun itself.

This is separate from the issues of a tacnet. In a centralized tacnet, the PAN itself is not slaved to the tacnet, but the tacnet is run out of the centralized node. The individual PANs of the tacnet members can still be hacked on their own. Of course, if a hacker gets into one of those PANs, they can then use the tacnet connection as a way into the central node, which they would have to then hack in order to compromise the tacnet proper.

1: You require mutual signal range or a subscription - a subscription does not specifically require you to subscribe to another node in MSR.  It just requires that there be at least one other node in MSR which has MSR to at least one other node and so on, whether or not you have access.  That's how the mesh works.  If a hacker in Seattle wants to hack something in Neo-Tokyo, he doesn't need to hack a chain of nodes to get there.

2: The PAN is run through the commlink, but anyone who has the least reason to be security-aware slaves the PAN to the commlink.

3: In a centralized tacnet, the rest of the team slaves their commlinks over to the master node.  This is made explicit in the description of centralized tacnets - see Unwired, page 125.
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Novocrane

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« Reply #12 on: <03-05-13/2110:16> »
Did I miss a mention of the palm chip cyber safety?

With that, plus cyberware image link / smart link, you need never go wireless with your own guns. Security forces with better pay grades than mall cops should consider these.

Reiper

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« Reply #13 on: <03-05-13/2236:22> »
Did I miss a mention of the palm chip cyber safety?

With that, plus cyberware image link / smart link, you need never go wireless with your own guns. Security forces with better pay grades than mall cops should consider these.

I do this on any of my characters, and the cost is negligible (175 for the chip in your hand, 0 essence cost, 200 for the chip on the gun, no mod slots). There is no reason at all anybody but the poorest goons shouldn't have this.
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RHat

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« Reply #14 on: <03-05-13/2240:51> »
Note that the wireless override applies only if you have a cyberware smartlink.
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