[KarmaInferno]

All of this is why the truly paranoid runners have multiple PANs. At least one with no wireless at all for gear that does not require any sort of matrix/radio connection, seperate PAN for communication gear.



-k

[Mithlas]

Mithlas, you missed that Unwired implies that the only time physical connection would be required to hack in is if there is neither wireless nor DNI.

Didn't miss it, I was responding to the implication that a hacker can use DNI to hack into somebody's implants. Wireless is a much better option, DNI is just one means of cyberlimb communication that a hacker can mess up. It's really not something a hacker can use without resorting to the extreme example I made.

All of this is why the truly paranoid runners have multiple PANs. At least one with no wireless at all for gear that does not require any sort of matrix/radio connection, separate PAN for communication gear.

My kind of people.

[RHat]

Mithlas, you missed that Unwired implies that the only time physical connection would be required to hack in is if there is neither wireless nor DNI.

Didn't miss it, I was responding to the implication that a hacker can use DNI to hack into somebody's implants. Wireless is a much better option, DNI is just one means of cyberlimb communication that a hacker can mess up. It's really not something a hacker can use without resorting to the extreme example I made.

What I'm saying is that it appears to be saying that if you can get access to a DNI'd device somehow (wireless direct, some form of routing...  There's options), the text appears to be implying that you could bridge over to other DNI'd devices through the DNI.  It makes sense from the perspective that any connection is a potential vulnerability, but it certainly caught me by surprise.

[Mithlas]

That makes much more sense. Not sure if I share your interpretation, but since the books don't go into that much detail (and really probably don't need to, generally), I would presume that would be a table-by-table basis thing.

Wireless, wired, and skinlinked devices on the other hand would very easily be accessible once you gained access to something on that network. I just don't think that the target's nervous system would be a sufficiently reliable medium for you to hop from DNI left cyberarm to DNI right cyberarm if there's no connection between them except the nerves.

[RHat]

Right, but remember that the DNI isn't the brain or nervous system - it's an interface, a piece of technology.  The purpose of it is to sit between the subjects brain/CNS and their ware/gear, and allow information from one to be processed by the other.

[nmap]

All of this is why the truly paranoid runners have multiple PANs. At least one with no wireless at all for gear that does not require any sort of matrix/radio connection, seperate PAN for communication gear.

Truly paranoid runners? Without spending 10k nuyen in matrix security, this is the only way to not get hacked by any script-kiddie hacker in about ten seconds. Everyone who is not completely clueless should do that in SR4.

[Anarkitty]

Right, but remember that the DNI isn't the brain or nervous system - it's an interface, a piece of technology.  The purpose of it is to sit between the subjects brain/CNS and their ware/gear, and allow information from one to be processed by the other.

In addition to wireless functionality, most cyberware devices are equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI) that
allows the user to mentally activate and control their functions. They can also be linked to other cyberware implants.

The way I read it, each Direct Neural Interface is a separate connection to the brain, not a single unit that all DNI devices run through.  In the case of a cyberlimb, the connection would likely terminate at the end of the remaining natural nerves (because there's no reason not to).  Datajacks usually connect directly to the nervous system wherever they are located, with different locations being better for different uses (in previous versions, riggers put them on the back of their neck for better sensory control, and deckers put them on their forehead to connect to the frontal lobe's raw processing power).

Direct  Neural  Interface  (DNI):  A  connection between the brain’s neural impulses and a computer system, allowing a user to mentally interact with and control that system. DNI is conveyed by an implanted commlink, an implanted sim module, a datajack, or worn trodes.

There is a computer in a cyberlimb.  That computer is translating the DNI signals into data that the servos and motors and such in the limb can understand, and vice versa with the feedback from the touch sensors and things in the limb.  It is filling the role of an implanted commlink, just a very specialized one.

I agree that the idea of connecting to a DNI device from another DNI device seems...wrong.  Maybe if they're bothe external, and connecting through the same DNI connection (both plugged into the same datajack, running off the same trodenet, etc) that would work, but the whole point of DNI is that the brain can't process or transmit raw computer data that way, so unless they're connected somewhere on the 'ware side or sharing the same connection, it really shouldn't work.

[RHat]

I agree that the idea of connecting to a DNI device from another DNI device seems...wrong.  Maybe if they're bothe external, and connecting through the same DNI connection (both plugged into the same datajack, running off the same trodenet, etc) that would work, but the whole point of DNI is that the brain can't process or transmit raw computer data that way, so unless they're connected somewhere on the 'ware side or sharing the same connection, it really shouldn't work.

I'm inclined to argue that it would absolutely work for things that are converted to DNI using one of the Four Methods, because then there's explicitly a technological point of connection between them.  It's the lack of definition for how cyberware DNI works, combined with the lack of allowance in the definition of DNI for other possibilities, that has me questioning how precisely that interacts with cyberware.

It's certainly an inconsistency, and at the end of the day probably down to GM ruling.

[Sengir]

Seven years on, and people still discuss stuff which is plainly stated in the books...

Cyberware and DNI:

DNI AND WIRELESS FUNCTIONALITY
Most cyberware comes with an integral direct neural interface, allowing the user to mentally access and control the implant. This is the primary means of control for most cybernetics and requires the implant have a built-in computer. Obviously, not all implants require such interfaces. Some, such as dermal plating and bone-lacing, are passive augmentations and don’t do much but make you tougher or stronger. Implants that don’t require any sort of mental control still come equipped with RFID sensor tags as a matter of course.
Wireless functionality is complementary to direct neural control, allowing diagnostics checks, connection redundancy in case of damage to the neural relays, software/firmware updates, and non-invasive monitoring of the implant’s performance.

How to prevent your 'ware from getting hacked:

CHANGE LINKED DEVICE MODE
A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that he is linked to either by a direct neural interface or by wireless link. This includes activating cyberware, changing a smartgun’s firing mode, deactivating thermographic vision, switching a commlink to hidden mode, turning a device’s wireless functionality off, and so on.

[RHat]

That doesn't remotely address the specific question, here.

[Sengir]

That doesn't remotely address the specific question, here.

...in the way you'd prefer it to be addressed, you mean

[mtfeeney = Baron]

I think he means "That doesn't address whether hacking something hooked up by DNI allows access to other items hooked up by DNI, since it never states whether it's a single DNI in your body attached to every implant or if each has its own."

[Sengir]

I think he means "That doesn't address whether hacking something hooked up by DNI allows access to other items hooked up by DNI, since it never states whether it's a single DNI in your body attached to every implant or if each has its own."

It does: "Most cyberware comes with an integral direct neural interface". Not "there is a single DNI to which most cyberware is connected".

[JoeNapalm]

All of this is why the truly paranoid runners have multiple PANs. At least one with no wireless at all for gear that does not require any sort of matrix/radio connection, seperate PAN for communication gear.



-k

And, if you're malicious enough and have the cash, yet another PAN that's a decoy, chock-a-block full of Black ICE.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Falconer]

OP:
This is nothing but the standard nonsense....

All internal active implants have DNI.   The 4 listed are the only ways to get external access to DNI though...  internal commlink has direct access...  Trodes + sim module... or datajack.

DNI is nothing but the bodies nervous system.   It's a transmission path.   It's like an ethernet cable... on it's own it doesn't do anything... but the brain on one side and the cyber on the other somehow learn to talk directly to each other and operate.   That's why the external access port provided by the above is important... without them nothing outside the body could ever get into the DNI network.

This is no different than skinlink provides an alternate way to wire two things together.   It's the physical layer on which the network runs..   DNI == nerves,  Skinlink == skin,  RF == wireless signal rating.  You get onto each by a different method.


As for the rest... hacking cyberware is a non-shadowrun trope that some people insist on trying to force into the setting no matter how badly it fits.   Normally based on stuff like Ghost in the Shell where almost everyone including the non-cyborgs have had their brains turned into AI's... then the AI's installed into fully drone bodies.    While in SR cyber is not a pure metal solution... it has both meat and metal parts to make it work.   I'll repeat that.. they've had their consciousness transformed into AI's.    The exact opposite of shadowrun.

It also relies on a completely flawed analogy that cyberlimbs are drones.  They're not... they don't have sensor ratings or a slew of other drone attributes.  Even if you granted that a limb could... it would have no way of letting you know what it was doing or where it was pointed in the case of a gun.

You don't 'rig' your cyberarms (plural).   You can only jump-in to a single drone at a single time.   Yet you seamlessly can control all the individual parts of a full cyberbody without any kind of problems.  You don't have a matrix icon present in a cyberlimb which the hacker can attack as if you were a rigger in a drone either.


As for the rest... there's no good reason whatsoever for anything to be wireless it simply doesn't pass the smell test.  If I'm at the local street doc to get my cyber checked up... he doesn't need wireless... all he needs to do is slap a helmet on me with a trode net to a cheap sim module and he can do the diagnostics easily enough.   It's nothing other than the 'everything is wireless' mistake that SR4 made to be taken to an absurd degree.

Toss in wireless nanites... and the whole thing goes even worse... as they can turn on anything wireless which has been turned off.   Or even provide wireless themselves.  It removes any semblance whatsoever to those other setting tropes... where it's possible to turn off all outside connections at will (GitS this is referred to as autistic mode).