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Official Hacking/Cyberware/PAN Discussion

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Medicineman

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« Reply #60 on: <03-22-13/1242:09> »
Applause to Falconer
He sums it up pretty well  :D  8)
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Medicineman
« Last Edit: <03-22-13/1356:18> by Medicineman »
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Novocrane

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« Reply #61 on: <03-22-13/1302:07> »
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Normally based on stuff like Ghost in the Shell where almost everyone including the non-cyborgs have had their brains turned into AI's
http://ghostintheshell.wikia.com/wiki/Cyberbrain
For reference. It's not unlike the headware and cranial containment units SR has already, until you get to the extremes. (and let's face it, the books don't cover the furthest extremes of the SR setting)

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hacking cyberware is a non-shadowrun trope that some people insist on trying to force into the setting no matter how badly it fits
You mean the writers of things like Unwired?

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firebug

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« Reply #62 on: <03-22-13/1348:30> »
Since it seemed like you were responding to me in particular, Falconer (that is what you meant by OP, yes?) I figured I'd respond back to you specifically as well.

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The 4 listed are the only ways to get external access to DNI though ... It's a transmission path.

That is what I wanted to hear.  It makes sense to me.  However, it does mean that if you get anything that gives you access, you -are- able to access anything else that's connected via DNI.  Also, you didn't mention what I think is a big clincher here--  DNI also allows you to have your own brain be at the starting end of the transmission path, unlike other methods of data transfer.

The rest of what you said is sensible, it would be incredibly difficult to control a limb that isn't one of your own.  Even if you had a way to transmit the exact same kind of data (let's imaging it's as if the cyberlimb is yours and you can move it as if it were attached to you) your brain simply doesn't know how to move it properly, because it's not familiar with that limb.  In addition, the crippling lack of proper perspective would make it difficult to control (if anyone's ever gotten confused in a room full of mirrors, it's kind of like that I imagine).  So, to me, best-case scenario of you having some way to essentially assimilate someone's cyberlimbs would still leave you unable to control them without serious difficulty.

As for your statement about wireless not being needed for street docs, it's just convenience.  It's much cheaper for them to just read the RFID tag in your cyberlimb and see what the problem is than to buy and set up and run the diagnostic manually.  It may seem a bit lazy, but, hey.  It's easier and it's cheaper.

And according to the characters in the game, you don't need to be worried, remember?
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>  Okay, but does that mean that if I get into a fight with a hacker or technomancer they can just reach out and turn off my cyberarm?
>  Hard Exit
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>  Maybe, but probably not. Cyberarms and most implants that have an exposed area on the body often require direct wired connections through access ports and the like, not a wireless signal. If you’re really worried about it, you should keep your cyberarm in hidden mode—or better yet, turn it off. Not always the best option, but it prevents hacking.
>  Butch

I have a feeling Rhat would say something like "The characters aren't meant to be taken as completely reliable sources of information, they're supposed to be (meta)human and make mistakes like everyone else." but to me, that was the writers way of saying "This isn't a big a deal as it sounds.  We didn't suddenly screw over all the Street Samurai."
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Falconer

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« Reply #63 on: <03-22-13/1404:16> »
firebug:
OP == Original poster... it's used to reference the person who started the thread when someone like me who is awful with names forgets the nickname and has editted the post and can't go back to look it up.

DNI == Direct Neural Interface IIRC... just means it plugs right into the bodies nervous system... items like synaptic boosters, wired ref, reflex boosters, etc... just act to make the nerves more efficient at passing signals increasing their bandwidth... enhancing reaction times.

Anyhow shadowtalk is supposed to be a rumormill and taken for flavor.   At any point it could be wrong.   But even the bit you reference could be taken to support the opposite position.   It's wireless... someone uses some cheap nanites and turns the wireless back on... now suck it as they bust into your arm since you're not a hacker yourself and have no way to turn it off.   Then the question turns to... well what can they do with it now that they compromised it?

This was stressed a lot more in prior editions.   The recent edition though has a much smaller pool of posters with a lot more repeat posts... which I think has kind of lost that feel.  especially since authors don't want their pet shadowtalkers to come off as a fool and spewing misinformation generally it feels to me.


Novacraine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Ghost_in_the_Shell

Try again... all cyberbrains in SR terms are on the grade of Cranial Containment Units.  And only the lightest grade of cyberization at that in GitS terms... as the brain is kept almost pure in a box with some light augmentation and support electronics.  I'll even quote... from the wiki on light cyberization "Physical improvements are limited to a very thin titanium shell around the cortex."   That sounds like a brain in a box to me.

It takes the view that the body is nothing but a drone and goes straight for brainhacking the cyberbrain to edit the sensor feeds and such from the eyes.  They don't hack the eyes... they get into the brain itself... then edit the feed... or send fake signals to even the real meat body.

Brainhacking is something not really found in SR.   If you recall Mr Trollman over on dumpshock that was his typical bete noire.   Something him and only a few people would typically push for repeatedly while the rest wanted nothing to do with it.  But it was one of those topics they'd continually bring up.

The closest you get is psychotropic program options for black hammers and the like.   Or stuffed into things like BTLs.  Or the massive brainwashing lab.
« Last Edit: <03-22-13/1413:07> by Falconer »

RHat

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« Reply #64 on: <03-22-13/1540:38> »
The internal/external thing would be a good answer if the definition of a DNI referenced the four methods as being for external stuff.  Like I said, it's an inconsistency - the text disagrees with itself, leaving open the question of whether or not the technological interface could be used to to connect from a wireless vulnerable DNI'd device to a wireless disabled DNI'd device.  So it comes down to how the GM wants to handle it.
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Anarkitty

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« Reply #65 on: <03-22-13/1558:47> »
OP:
This is nothing but the standard nonsense....

All internal active implants have DNI.   The 4 listed are the only ways to get external access to DNI though...  internal commlink has direct access...  Trodes + sim module... or datajack.

DNI is nothing but the bodies nervous system.   It's a transmission path.   It's like an ethernet cable... on it's own it doesn't do anything... but the brain on one side and the cyber on the other somehow learn to talk directly to each other and operate.   That's why the external access port provided by the above is important... without them nothing outside the body could ever get into the DNI network.

This is no different than skinlink provides an alternate way to wire two things together.   It's the physical layer on which the network runs..   DNI == nerves,  Skinlink == skin,  RF == wireless signal rating.  You get onto each by a different method.

This isn't quite accurate.  Wireless and Skinlink are just means of data transmission, using radio waves or the electrical conductivity of the skin respectively.  DNI is more than that, it doesn't just transmit and receive data along the nervous system, it translates that data into a form that the brain can understand and vice versa.  Only Technomancers can actually think in machine code, everyone else needs DNI.
Think of it like connecting a Blu-Ray player to an old CRT TV.  Something has to translate between digital and analog and back for them to communicate.  That is the DNI.

As for the rest... hacking cyberware is a non-shadowrun trope that some people insist on trying to force into the setting no matter how badly it fits.   Normally based on stuff like Ghost in the Shell where almost everyone including the non-cyborgs have had their brains turned into AI's... then the AI's installed into fully drone bodies.    While in SR cyber is not a pure metal solution... it has both meat and metal parts to make it work.   I'll repeat that.. they've had their consciousness transformed into AI's.    The exact opposite of shadowrun.

It also relies on a completely flawed analogy that cyberlimbs are drones.  They're not... they don't have sensor ratings or a slew of other drone attributes.  Even if you granted that a limb could... it would have no way of letting you know what it was doing or where it was pointed in the case of a gun.

You don't 'rig' your cyberarms (plural).   You can only jump-in to a single drone at a single time.   Yet you seamlessly can control all the individual parts of a full cyberbody without any kind of problems.  You don't have a matrix icon present in a cyberlimb which the hacker can attack as if you were a rigger in a drone either.

I agree.  Cyberware hacking doesn't belong in SR.  It is an idea that seems to have been added late in the process and it has never been fully explained or integrated into the rest of the system.
To clarify Falconer's statement for anyone who hasn't seen Ghost in the Shell, in that setting most people have had their physical brain replaced by a computer (the "Shell") that they have uploaded their consciousness and soul into (the "Ghost").  This is the most common cyberenhancement in the setting, often possessed by individuals that have no other cyberware at all.  All additional cyberware requires a cyberbrain and is controlled like a rigged drone, requiring concious operation.  There is no Essence loss, because your "Ghost" (soul, spirit, Essence, whatever) is uploaded into your Cyberbrain along with your mind, and is the only difference between a clone or robot, and a fully cybered human.  If a hacker can get into someone's cyberbrain, they can control their cyberware, or if they're good enough even hack the victim's memories, personality, vision (Laughing Man), or even their Ghost  (Puppet Master).  All of this works because the cyberbrain is a digital device that is able to directly communicate with other digital devices.  It makes everyone a Technomancer.
In SR, things work very differently.  Even a full conversion cyborg (Jarhead) still has to have a meat brain, and that brain cannot be hacked directly because it doesn't communicate in the same language that machines do.  Other than those individuals, no one else rigs their cyberlimbs because they don't need to.  That is what the DNI accomplishes, translating biological "brain code" into machine code and back again at the point of connection, but the biological nervous system is not a computer network.  You can't send a signal into a nerves in your arm and have it route to the nerves in your leg.  Nerve signals don't just pass through the brain like a router, and anything on the biological side of the DNI cannot be interacted with except through a DNI. 

TL;DR - cyberware hacking makes sense in Ghost in the Shell, and doesn't in Shadowrun.

As for the rest... there's no good reason whatsoever for anything to be wireless it simply doesn't pass the smell test.  If I'm at the local street doc to get my cyber checked up... he doesn't need wireless... all he needs to do is slap a helmet on me with a trode net to a cheap sim module and he can do the diagnostics easily enough.   It's nothing other than the 'everything is wireless' mistake that SR4 made to be taken to an absurd degree.

Toss in wireless nanites... and the whole thing goes even worse... as they can turn on anything wireless which has been turned off.   Or even provide wireless themselves.  It removes any semblance whatsoever to those other setting tropes... where it's possible to turn off all outside connections at will (GitS this is referred to as autistic mode).

The wireless nanites don't make any sense at all to me.  I can understand that they can provide a wireless signal, but how would that help hack into something that has has its wireless interface removed?  If the computer in the device doesn't have the software or hardware required to send or receive wireless transmissions, that would be like connecting a wireless networking adapter to a modern computer but not installing the driver for it.  The computer would technically be wireless, and could be detected and even connected to wirelessly, but there would be no way to do anything over that wireless link because the computer can't communicate with the wireless adapter.
Basically they exist for the sole purpose of being a "Fuck you" to runners who make a tactical decision to sacrifice the convenience of wireless in favor of security.



Quote
Normally based on stuff like Ghost in the Shell where almost everyone including the non-cyborgs have had their brains turned into AI's
http://ghostintheshell.wikia.com/wiki/Cyberbrain
For reference. It's not unlike the headware and cranial containment units SR has already, until you get to the extremes. (and let's face it, the books don't cover the furthest extremes of the SR setting)

As stated, it is entirely unline headware and cranial containment, as it involves actually replacing the meat brain with a computer that somehow runs your mind and soul as software.

RHat

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« Reply #66 on: <03-22-13/1614:29> »
This isn't quite accurate.  Wireless and Skinlink are just means of data transmission, using radio waves or the electrical conductivity of the skin respectively.  DNI is more than that, it doesn't just transmit and receive data along the nervous system, it translates that data into a form that the brain can understand and vice versa.  Only Technomancers can actually think in machine code, everyone else needs DNI.
Think of it like connecting a Blu-Ray player to an old CRT TV.  Something has to translate between digital and analog and back for them to communicate.  That is the DNI.

Minor point:  Technomancer DNI technically comes from the sim module that is an automatic element of the bio-node.
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Falconer

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« Reply #67 on: <03-22-13/1634:25> »
SR4a dictionary of terms...
Direct Neural Interface (DNI):
"..... DNI is conveyed by a ..."

convey: 
1. transport or carried to a place
2. translate the meaning of

I'm using the first definition of the word...   You're insisting on the second when it makes no sense.   And both definitions aren't mutually exclusive either... you can have someone/thing transport and translate a message at the same time using that one word.

Implanted commlink, implanted sim module, datajack, or external trodes + sim module are needed to extend DNI control signals outside the body.  The definition is in the matrix chapter of all places and deals with interacting with the matrix...  so it makes sense in this context.  Since it simply restates what the rules say elsewhere about these 4 devices being required or sufficient for certain operations involving AR and VR.

p338... Cyberware:
Most cyberware is equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI).
IE: they read the natural body signals directly off the nerves and do what they're supposed to do.   There was a guy who had a computer chip embedded onto the nerve into his arm... who can operate robotic arms a continent away and even 'feel' what the pressure sensors on the arm do.   And here's an even more recent article.

You have the brain on one side, the nerves forming the communications path (what most people refer to as DNI), and some kind of computer on the other reading the signals off the nerves and sending some back.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-11/28/robotic-arm-transplant-operation?page=all

firebug

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« Reply #68 on: <03-22-13/1658:43> »
Careful Rhat...  I feel like if we start discussing technomancers too much, we will open a whole new can of worms that's not even understood in-game.

Falconer, I agree that it transports data, but you also say it has to by nature translate it, so I'm not sure why you say the second definition makes no sense.  So, a DNI is using your neural system as a way to transport and translate code/brain signals back and forth.

So if someone did access it via an outside (wireless) source, and we're assuming that they're doing it through say, access to an implanted commlink, they could use the DNI to send signals to all other DNI-enabled devices?

So, I think it comes down to...  Hacking cyberware is unlikely to be possible because the wireless functionality is easily turned off, but if someone has an implanted commlink or something wireless that's -also- plugged into a datajack, you could use that to gain access to their other DNI things because the DNI is just using their nervous system as a new route to transport data, and is fully capable of any translation needed to go between computer code and brain signals?

But that's worrysome.  Because then you could use a DNI to literally pilot a person's whole body the same way you've gotten access to everything else; just send data that the DNI will translate into neural data and thus you can move someone's body.

It would have to be able to translate right into brain signals, or else how would it produce feedback from limbs or simsense that your brain can understand?  And if your brain can understand it, everything else can...

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Mithlas

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« Reply #69 on: <03-22-13/1852:21> »
If a hacker can get into someone's cyberbrain, they can control their cyberware, or if they're good enough even hack the victim's memories, personality, vision (Laughing Man), or even their Ghost  (Puppet Master). All of this works because the cyberbrain is a digital device that is able to directly communicate with other digital devices.
The only person that I recall that had his vision hacked (I remember that episode with Laughing Man) was Batou, who had cybereyes. He thought a similar event happened in a different episode when a girl can "see" him in a dark room despite his active camo, though she was actually blind and never relied on her eyes in the first place.

I can understand that they can provide a wireless signal, but how would that help hack into something that has has its wireless interface removed?
They act as the wireless and pass on any commands? It's the same as plugging a satellite receiver into a computer to get internet even when you're out of a wireless zone. I do think that it's a tad overmuch into the "throwing wireless around", at least for their cost (I'm sure the Vorlons could concoct something like this, but that's like saying "I'm sure a Great Dragon could cast a spell like that"), and even then it's not like wireless nanites are cheap and easy to grab from the local Stuffer Shack. They're nanite weapons, and if they're getting broken out then things are getting serious.

Anarkitty

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« Reply #70 on: <03-22-13/2000:06> »
If a hacker can get into someone's cyberbrain, they can control their cyberware, or if they're good enough even hack the victim's memories, personality, vision (Laughing Man), or even their Ghost  (Puppet Master). All of this works because the cyberbrain is a digital device that is able to directly communicate with other digital devices.
The only person that I recall that had his vision hacked (I remember that episode with Laughing Man) was Batou, who had cybereyes. He thought a similar event happened in a different episode when a girl can "see" him in a dark room despite his active camo, though she was actually blind and never relied on her eyes in the first place.

Maybe I'm mis-remembering (I haven't seen it since it first came out fansubbed), but I thought the whole scary thing about the Laughing Man is that he hacked everyone's eyes, which is why everyone saw the logo instead of his face.  Again, I don't really remember the conclusion to that story arc.


I can understand that they can provide a wireless signal, but how would that help hack into something that has has its wireless interface removed?
They act as the wireless and pass on any commands? It's the same as plugging a satellite receiver into a computer to get internet even when you're out of a wireless zone. I do think that it's a tad overmuch into the "throwing wireless around", at least for their cost (I'm sure the Vorlons could concoct something like this, but that's like saying "I'm sure a Great Dragon could cast a spell like that"), and even then it's not like wireless nanites are cheap and easy to grab from the local Stuffer Shack. They're nanite weapons, and if they're getting broken out then things are getting serious.

A satellite receiver doesn't do any good if you just set it on top of the computer though.  Sure it has wireless, and it's touching the computer, but that doesn't mean the computer has wireless.  It doesn't do any good to run a cord from the satellite receiver to the power supply either.  And you can't just solder a wire to the motherboard and call it an interface either.  You have to connect via one of only a few standard plugs and protocols.  Unless the nanites actually manage to get inside the datajack, there is no way for them to create a wireless connection because they aren't connected to the computer in the arm in any meaningful way.

Even connecting correctly doesn't help you unless the computer not only detects the connection, but understands what it is for and how to use it by installing the appropriate drivers.  If the computer doesn't have a NIC driver, it will never connect to a network no matter how you plug it in.  If I am paranoid enough to remove the wireless receiver from my cyberarm, I'm sure as hell going to uninstall the wireless drivers as well.

The only way the nanites could do what the book says they are capable of doing, is if they have the ability to interface with a computer just by touching it, and have the ability to subsequently hack past any defenses, install software onto the computer, and then act not just as a wireless antenna but as a complete wireless network adapter.

And don't forget, to hack a node, the hacker has to get into the public part of it first, and then they can run their hacking programs in that node to try and access the secure parts.  The public portion is what allows the wireless device to act as a relay for unrelated packets and makes the Matrix possible.  A device without wireless to begin with wouldn't have the "guest account" because it isn't acting as a relay, meaning the hacker has no way to get in and run his hacking software or agents against the node.  Thus the nanites would also have to have enough processing power to act as the public portion of the node or else it wouldn't do any good.

These nanites, therefore can:
* Interface with electronics just by touching them
* Hack into those electronics and install software (automatically bypassing any firewall or software defenses)
* Host a node powerful enough for an icon to log onto it and run programs
* While also acting as a wireless transmitter, receiver and antenna

Their availability and cost seem very low for what they are capable of doing, especially compared to the rest of the tech in 2070.

mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #71 on: <03-23-13/0638:02> »
Hacking a DNI-connected device would not allow access to other DNI-connected devices.  The DNI translates and conveys signals from the device to your brain.  If you hack the device, the DNI isn't going to suddenly translate your hacking attempts into something that can pass along the neural network of your body.
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Novocrane

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« Reply #72 on: <03-23-13/0641:21> »
But it could pass along erroneous signals to your brain, hmm?

mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #73 on: <03-23-13/0650:10> »
That would be interesting.  "If someone hacks your cyberlimb, they can assault your brain.  This causes disorientation, similar to electric damage."
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UmaroVI

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« Reply #74 on: <03-23-13/1005:18> »
I'm really not sure what the big deal with those nanites is. Yes, they suck if they get in your system, but (a) you can defend against them with the same methods you defend against toxins (ie, Chemical Seal), (b) Nanite Hunters at least provide some defense, (c) if you were not Chemically Sealed, whoever dosed you with the wacky nanites could also just have saved money and used Ringu anyways.