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Official Hacking/Cyberware/PAN Discussion

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firebug

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« Reply #75 on: <03-23-13/1105:03> »
Hacking a DNI-connected device would not allow access to other DNI-connected devices.  The DNI translates and conveys signals from the device to your brain.  If you hack the device, the DNI isn't going to suddenly translate your hacking attempts into something that can pass along the neural network of your body.

What you say is reasonable.  And yet, the books say you are wrong, unfortunately.

Quote from: Unwired, page 102
Not all cyberware is hackable, though enough is to make a hacker’s interest worthwhile. To determine if a particular cyber-implant can be hacked, the following criteria must be met (note that these criteria actually apply to almost all devices, not just cyberware):

First, the cyberware must be computerized—not all implants need a built-in computer. Most cyberware, however is either computerized (or at least equipped with RFID sensor tags) so that it may be queried for diagnostics, controlled remotely or via direct neural interface, or communicate with other implants/devices. See DNI and Wireless Functionality, p. 31, Augmentation.

Second, the implant must be accessible by the hacker, via wired or wireless connection. Most external implants (like cyberlimbs) only have wired connections, requiring the hacker to physically jack in to access the device. A datajack provides immediate access to all cyber-implants with a direct neural interface. Many internal implants have wireless links to aid medical staff in running diagnostics (like wired reflexes) or to link to other devices (like a smartlink). The Signal rating
of internal implants tends to be low (usually 0), meaning that a hacker needs to be in close range. Such implants are often slaved to the character’s commlink, however, so a hacker who infiltrates the master node can access slaved implants (see Slaving, p. 55). Some internal implants (such as cortex bombs) have no wireless or DNI connection and so are isolated from other systems, requiring surgery to allow a hacker to jack in and access the device.

Bolded (and glowing!) for your convenience is that one bitch of a sentence that causes the most problems.  Otherwise, I would agree with you that you can't start backhacking into someone's nervous system via their DNI.  But you -can-.  If a datajack lets you do it, what's the difference between that and getting into someone's implanted commlink?  They are both simply ways that someone can access your DNI funcionality from the outside.

That said, those things really seem like they are otherwise the only way to get to someone's DNI. Otherwise, there's not much of a way to hack someone's cyberware if they just toggle off the wireless, save for specific nanites designed to infiltrate someone's body and specifically make their ware more vulnerable.  But hey, nothing's 100%.  As Umaro said, they can be resisted like toxins.  Plus honestly...  How often is that going to happen?  Once, twice maybe to get a point that no defense is perfect?  I doubt they're that commonplace.  Also, if you encrypt something the nanites can't do shit to it, then you wave a little tag eraser (everyone carries those, right?) at yourself and they die.
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Falconer

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« Reply #76 on: <03-23-13/1311:10> »
I largely agree with your other posts but not this one Anarkitty...

One the nanites don't need a reason or way to work... any tech sufficiently advanced is magic.
Two, signal tapper drones exist and are small... nothing stops nanites from tapping into fiber either.
Essentially the damn things pretty much have 'plot protection' as best I can tell... every time I see them used the players get screwed no matter how careful they are with their defenses.


Also I disagree with Umaro's defenses... because there are only two.   Tag erasers don't help against nanites... they're not 'tags'.   Anything used for toxin resistance doesn't work.   Nanites aren't toxins.   Chem seal is *NOT* common...   chem seal is the equivalent of MOPP gear... it fully encloses the body in a completely sealed bubble.   How many people walk around like that in bunny suits or do bubble boy impressions?  Even on a run!    The nanites come as an injection attack as well... so chem seal doesn't stop it unless you're wearing mil-spec armor either.  That leaves only nanite hunters or packing your own personal jammer at all times and realizing that still doesn't stop comms within 10'.    The only good thing there are nanohives are easy to stuff into capacity...


Firebug:
The only big of non-clarity I think in the rules is this much...  if only those 4 methods provide a way to bridge connections between the matrix and DNI  or whether anything with it can.   Datajack, internal commlink or simmodule, trodes + simmodule.  Each of those is clearly designed to translate and transport signals into a format your mind can interpret and vice versa.   I suspect the intent of the rules is that those are the primary gateways between DNI and the matrix.

But I don't think the way they're written that is so.   While from one POV it makes sense that only those 4 would form the bridge between external networks and the DNI 'wiring' as that's their design function.   Given the standard node model... all nodes act as routers... and why would a DNI interface on any piece of kit not serve to route the traffic.  You could make a weak argument that not all DNI's are created equal... but it's a weak argument.


That said... once again unless slaved.   Again each node is it's own node and would need to be hacked individually.   Also each one is a peripheral node and has very limited functionality as to what you can do inside of it.   While a toaster may be a node... you're very limited in what you can do inside a toaster's node... normally only set how hot/long you want the toast burned for and to start the process.   Maybe a deluxe model might even butter it for you as well.   Read up on peripheral nodes for a better idea what I mean.

Even if slaved... you can only send one command to a single device per action... or send the same command to multiple devices.   As once again... each one is an individual node... PAN has no meaning outside of this is all the junk that talks at very short ranges in some kind of a very short range network (bluetoothy, DNI, skinlinked...).


BTW: another way to screw with people and their stuff....  wireless skinlinked seats!

mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #77 on: <03-23-13/2025:21> »
It doesn't say hacking a DNI-enabled implant allows access to all others.  It says jacking into someone's datajack allows access to all DNI-enabled implants.  That makes perfect sense, since the datajack interface does exactly what the DNI wouldn't do.  Translate your attempts.
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Supine

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« Reply #78 on: <03-27-13/1808:18> »
So, trying to optimize the results of using technology (keeping AR, Smartlink, and all 'ware functions) without opening holes for hackers must be theoretically possible. I'll start with cyberware.

Cyberware takes data from its link to the nervous system, so it can't have all networking disabled. However, if it was programmed to take data ONLY from that link (possibly with the exception of data requests for diagnostic purposes), then the data could be taken from that link and sent through a program in ROM, which interprets it and outputs the results as movement. The goal, then, would be to close down as much interaction as is possible at each stage of the 'ware's operation.

A hacker could not do much at the physical layer. Corrupting the data link between the person's brain and the machine, while it may sound promising in theory, would doubtlessly be shut down by security protocols. The input can't be hacked, because it's impossible to hack a human nervous system, and the output is closed to outside influence. A hacker could possibly install a backdoor in between the hardware output and the actual cyberware which would allow for remote operation, but that would be an exception, as nothing of the sort would be installed by default (except perhaps on corpsec personnel, if dictated by the GM). Data collection, diagnostics, and everything else not related to the direct operation of the 'ware would be disconnected for security purposes. This is made easier on the security by the fact that cyberware doesn't try to do more than it should-- Most of the security holes in modern computing are caused by plugins and applications that expand the functionality of the computer, thereby allowing for hackers to use the new functions for their own good.

However, say that the link's software is updated over the Matrix, for the savings on the corporate side and the convenience on the user end. Wireless security would definitely take great strides from today, but given the fact that it doesn't exist in Shadowrun for many years, the tech might not be that far ahead of where it is today. Today, hackers tend to fake out wireless security by pretending to be something else, poisoning different protocols and hiding the hack in otherwise normal transmissions. In the Sixth World, and our cyberware example, imagine that a corpsec goon with all sorts of 'ware is downloading updates, but a hacker has poisoned the Sixth World equivalent of DNS or ARP and connected the guard to their own server instead of the secure corporate server. The hacker can replace the software with something that suits his purposes. Today, this would only be possible sometimes. Updates are installed at a predetermined time or when the user starts them manually, the former being more common for most programs. That system gives the hacker little opportunity to take control of the device outside of the set update time, but once the update is installed, the hacker can theoretically control the 'ware completely, limited only by what piece was hacked and what it was connected to. Another option, and possibly the one used in the Sixth World, is that the corp sends out a signal to tell the 'ware to receive an update, and then asks for admin authorization and installs it. This gives more opportunity to a hacker, because with a few faked addresses and security certificates, the hacked update can be installed at any time, and the target would still believe that the update was legitimate. This might not be useful in the middle of combat (as it's not quite the opportune time for a pop-up in the middle of an AR display) but to a target on the way, a guard on patrol, or other similar situations, faking the software would be a fast and brutally effective solution.

In combat, though, the user would not be so cooperative. Here, it would be more useful to break into the enemy's PAN and frag up what you can, concentrating less on decimating the enemy and more on making it so that they're not effective combatants. Even AR spam can get a guard killed in combat if it takes up enough of their vision. Other attacks, like switching on a gun's safety or blaring punk rock through a pair of cyberears, can sow confusion and panic and make the enemy deader then Dunkelzahn. These effects can be achieved in the same way (by spoofing certificates and pretending to be legit sources) or by more direct routes, like bruteforcing (the subtle art of using a program to try every password possible) or Denial of Service (giving the target so much data to process that it's overwhelmed and fails).

A commlink would probably be the easiest thing to target for most types of attack, as it has more functions (read: more holes to exploit), and is constantly connected to the outside, even in hidden mode, as hidden mode does not shut off the wireless capability as evidenced by the fact that they remain remotely hackable. A firewall would help (most of its job is analyzing packets and keeping out malicious ones), as would anti-malware software and everything else that's used today. Most of these can be exploited today (Software firewalls can be taken out with the beautifully-named WAFFle attack, not that I'm saying that for any reason but to inform you all that WAFFle is a technical term in the world of computer security) and it can be safely assumed that it's the same in Shadowrun, since hackers do it every day.  When talking about hacking, however, it is not only important whether something is hacked, but how, and to what extent. A skilled hacker can use one small exploit and proceed to use it to crack different things, peeling away the layers of security until he has complete control. However, that might not be the best course of action when time is on the line, so a hacker might find that using the limited exploit to achieve the result without cracking all of it. As far as I know, there is no simulation for this in Shadowrun, but a reasonable houserule to mimic it could be made.  Halving the time while limiting the functionality somehow, the specifics aren't my strong suit.

Hacking more specialized hardware could be gone about in multiple ways. One of the more straightforward, perhaps counter-intuitively, would be hacking it through the commlink. Since the commlink is what generally dictates what the different components do (in the case that each component is slaved to the commlink, which is more convenient, but not more secure as some people in this thread seem to believe), hacking it gives the hacker absolute control over everything controlled by the commlink. This would also happen to include everything that is run through the commlink's operating system-- Everything that the AR display has control over (Probably the majority of PANs would be controlled by the commlink, since that would be the most convenient and simple to keep running), everything that the commlink does indirectly through other means (software updates for the other components is an example that comes to mind), and of course the commlink itself. Say a hacker finds a guy with his PAN run through his commlink. In modern-day terms, the commlink acts as the server, with each piece of tech acting as a separate host. The hacker beaks into the commlink, and opens a program that uses the commlink's access info to install fake updates on each host. This is possible because of simple convenience. Nobody wants to have a different username and password on everything they own, especially with things like cyberware, and even the few who use biometrics wouldn't want to have to swipe a fingerprint on everything they own just to get it running in the morning. As a result, cracking one device on the PAN basically cracks them all, and once the hacker gets into the commlink, everything else is as simple as clicking a button and waiting for confirmation.

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #79 on: <03-28-13/2214:45> »
I would point out that in previous editions, the DNI was in fact a central router to which all neurally linked cyberware was attached.

This got kinda lost in the tech streamlining of 4th edition, though.



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myrddin000

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« Reply #80 on: <04-05-13/1452:02> »
ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible". GMing isn't following the rules to the letter, it's using them as latticework to do what you think should happen to make the game fun for you and your players. A lot of this stuff should just be filed under "it's vauge and doesn't matter". If, as GM, you decide to change something, even something fundemental, because YOU think it should be that way that's is your perogative. I took a class with RPG god Tracy Hickman and this kind of stuff came up a lot. He said basically what I said just now.  :D I love these discussions though.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #81 on: <04-05-13/1513:10> »
Well, myrddin, while I agree that having someone hack an arm, and then being able to make actual attacks with the cyberarm isn't feasible, there are plenty of ways a hacker could screw with the arm. Like turning it off (or putting it in diagnostic mode, if you prefer), and simple movements (open/close hand, straighten/contract arm, etc.). Or Editing the control software so that actions are inverted. Nice 'annoyance' routines, that can cause problems until they are fixed, but aren't an immediate, unavoidable death sentence. No 'stab yourself in the gut' or 'shoot the guy next to you'. That's still the realm of magic or manipulating what they see so they make poor choices.
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RHat

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« Reply #82 on: <04-05-13/1855:50> »
ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible".

...  What the hell, man?  A player wants to do something that's inside the rules, you decide to ignore the rules, and he's "whining" and "rules lawyering" by pointing out the actual rules?  Worse yet, you decide to kill his character for trying to do something entirely legitimate for no reason other than because you randomly decided to declare it impossible?
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Anarkitty

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« Reply #83 on: <04-08-13/1140:35> »
ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible".

...  What the hell, man?  A player wants to do something that's inside the rules, you decide to ignore the rules, and he's "whining" and "rules lawyering" by pointing out the actual rules?  Worse yet, you decide to kill his character for trying to do something entirely legitimate for no reason other than because you randomly decided to declare it impossible?

He did say he warned the player, and a GM is allowed to change rules by fiat.  He said he would kill the player if they kept whining after that point, which is a little extreme, but it is not beyond the pale for a character to waste their turn due to indecision or trying to do something they know (because the GM explicitly told their player) is impossible.
This is a rule change that should be discussed ahead of time if it is a major part of the player's build (character concept: cyberware hacker), but otherwise it's just a table decision.

myrddin000

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« Reply #84 on: <04-08-13/1501:36> »
ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible".

...  What the hell, man?  A player wants to do something that's inside the rules, you decide to ignore the rules, and he's "whining" and "rules lawyering" by pointing out the actual rules?  Worse yet, you decide to kill his character for trying to do something entirely legitimate for no reason other than because you randomly decided to declare it impossible?

He did say he warned the player, and a GM is allowed to change rules by fiat.  He said he would kill the player if they kept whining after that point, which is a little extreme, but it is not beyond the pale for a character to waste their turn due to indecision or trying to do something they know (because the GM explicitly told their player) is impossible.
This is a rule change that should be discussed ahead of time if it is a major part of the player's build (character concept: cyberware hacker), but otherwise it's just a table decision.

thank you. and the killing him thing was sarcasm. I'm not a mean GM looking to nerf my players good time. the point I was trying to make was that arguing over the vaugness of rules hampers play at the table and in those situations I make a simple ruling and if a player THEN begins to rule laywer in lieu of trying to do something he considers "badass", whenin reality he's trying to buck and break the system to make himself shine over the others and "win" the game, I penalize him. This kind of thing may come from GMing a group of constant powergamers and Munchies. I like to roll fast and loose and ambigous rules be damned. I discard rules if they interfere with the fun of the game in the moment.
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myrddin000

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« Reply #85 on: <04-08-13/1504:06> »

[/quote]
He did say he warned the player, and a GM is allowed to change rules by fiat.  He said he would kill the player if they kept whining after that point, which is a little extreme, but it is not beyond the pale for a character to waste their turn due to indecision or trying to do something they know (because the GM explicitly told their player) is impossible.
This is a rule change that should be discussed ahead of time if it is a major part of the player's build (character concept: cyberware hacker), but otherwise it's just a table decision.
[/quote]

those things usually are discussed beforehand. unfortunately rule abuse does take place regardless. :)
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RHat

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« Reply #86 on: <04-08-13/2110:35> »
ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible".

...  What the hell, man?  A player wants to do something that's inside the rules, you decide to ignore the rules, and he's "whining" and "rules lawyering" by pointing out the actual rules?  Worse yet, you decide to kill his character for trying to do something entirely legitimate for no reason other than because you randomly decided to declare it impossible?

He did say he warned the player, and a GM is allowed to change rules by fiat.  He said he would kill the player if they kept whining after that point, which is a little extreme, but it is not beyond the pale for a character to waste their turn due to indecision or trying to do something they know (because the GM explicitly told their player) is impossible.
This is a rule change that should be discussed ahead of time if it is a major part of the player's build (character concept: cyberware hacker), but otherwise it's just a table decision.

Missing the turn because the GM suddenly decided your intended action was impossible IS beyond the pale - that's the GM's fault, not the player's, so there's no way in hell it should be made the player's problem.  And wanting to do something that is normally rules-legal, only to find out that the GM has suddenly stripped out part of your combat capabilities while taking away a balancing element from another archetype and thus making them more powerful while making you weaker, is not "whining".

Myrdinn:  This isn't rule-abuse.  It's something that counterbalances extremely augmented characters - another part of their defense they need to pay attention to.  There are problems that can happen when you remove it.
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Anarkitty

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« Reply #87 on: <04-09-13/1753:35> »
ok so I read most of the posts (through page 4) and I think really what this comes down to is the GM saying yes or no to certain things involving hacking. If one of my players asked to hack the Street Sam's sword arm I'd say no on principle. And if he asked why I'd say "because the technology involved in cyberlimbs/DNI is specifically designed so that that is literally impossible to do so" and if he whined and rule lawyered about it I'd say "you get shot in the head and are now dead because you've stood around on your turn trying to do the impossible".

...  What the hell, man?  A player wants to do something that's inside the rules, you decide to ignore the rules, and he's "whining" and "rules lawyering" by pointing out the actual rules?  Worse yet, you decide to kill his character for trying to do something entirely legitimate for no reason other than because you randomly decided to declare it impossible?

He did say he warned the player, and a GM is allowed to change rules by fiat.  He said he would kill the player if they kept whining after that point, which is a little extreme, but it is not beyond the pale for a character to waste their turn due to indecision or trying to do something they know (because the GM explicitly told their player) is impossible.
This is a rule change that should be discussed ahead of time if it is a major part of the player's build (character concept: cyberware hacker), but otherwise it's just a table decision.

Missing the turn because the GM suddenly decided your intended action was impossible IS beyond the pale - that's the GM's fault, not the player's, so there's no way in hell it should be made the player's problem.

Yes, if  done that way, it is inappropriate, and more importantly, rude.  On the other hand, if the player is told that it is impossible, and given an opportunity to change their action, and they choose to try to do it anyway "because the rules say I can", then it is entirely appropriate to rule that their character attempts the action and fails automatically, thereby wasting their turn.

And wanting to do something that is normally rules-legal, only to find out that the GM has suddenly stripped out part of your combat capabilities while taking away a balancing element from another archetype and thus making them more powerful while making you weaker, is not "whining".

No, that is not whining.  Whining about it, however, is whining.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #88 on: <04-29-13/0624:53> »
So let me see if I get this straight.

For anyone outside a system to influence their DNI, they need to have an implanted comm/simmodule, a datajack or wear trodes. This is basically used for usage of Linguasofts and other simstuff. If someone does not have such an access-point, they cannot access outside-systems with their brains, so no linguasoft benefits and such.

Now Cyberlimbs and any other active Cyberware, such as Wired Reflexes, are linked to the brain by neural systems. There is no way to hack that unless somehow you can hack someone's brain. The ware don't have to be connected to an internal commlink and they don't need to have their wireless on.

If you do connect them to that comm, or have wireless on, a hacker can use that commlink or the wireless at signal 0 (requiring a node nearby but then again any non-hidden commlinks nearby could already rout that signal) and then mess with it, such as deactivating things, taking over the limbs to attack the owner, etc.

If you still want a streetdoc to be able to access the wireless of the ware, you can disable it so it can be temporarily enabled through a specific encrypted code. Otherwise, they just have to cut you open and run a diagnostic test at a potential penalty depending on how hard it is to access the ware.

Is that about correct?
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mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #89 on: <04-29-13/0659:26> »
Not the part about hacking an arm and making it attack the owner.
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