[Michael Chandra]

Unless you're running blind on a mission, chances are you have something that can be hacked. If TacNet still gives those bonus-dice in SR5, there's a decent chance your teammates want you to run it not just for yourself but also because it gives them an extra die, like they would in SR4. So you got hackable stuff most likely, but nothing life-threatening.

Now if you're purely using the comm for talking, the hacker can only whisper in your ears.

[RHat]

 

How is a Hacker gonna do that to an Adept?


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

Through whatever device you're using for your image link?

[JoeNapalm]

Tacnets can already be hacked.

So can whatever is running my Image Link, unless I shut off my wifi.

But my gear, on my person, that doesn't need to talk to anyone else, I'd shut down the freaking wifi even if I had to do it with wire cutters. My cyber hand doesn't need to talk to Facebook.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[RHat]

Two things:

- Hacking actions will be available that can be completed in a combat timescale
- There where be positive reasons not to shut that wireless off.

[CanRay]

- There where be positive reasons not to shut that wireless off.

Not having to admit to your chummers that MUNGO of all people screwed up your last 'run being one of them.

'Cause, you know he's going to post that all over the Matrix and you'll have to admit it. 

[JoeNapalm]

Two things:

- Hacking actions will be available that can be completed in a combat timescale
- There where be positive reasons not to shut that wireless off.

There are already positive reasons.

I don't see why there needs to be more vulnerability that singles out Street Samurai. They're already next to useless vs Matrix and Magic.

But this thread is about SR4 and there is already an SR5 thread on the subject.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Mithlas]

I shut down the wifi and cellular data connection on my phone all the time.

That's not even something you can do on all phones nowadays. I don't have a smartphone myself, but I've heard that the later-gen models of the iphone can't have the data connection shut off. Companies like having the control and not giving it to consumers - I see that being more the case in Shadowrun than today, not less.

I don't see why there needs to be more vulnerability that singles out Street Samurai. They're already next to useless vs Matrix and Magic.

Street sams aren't innately useless - the core books already say that many keep Command programs with them to counter hacking attempts messing with their drones, vehicles, or cyberware, and anybody not running a decent firewall and Analyze is probably asking for it if you're going into a situation that might involve hackers.

[JoeNapalm]

I shut down the wifi and cellular data connection on my phone all the time.

That's not even something you can do on all phones nowadays. I don't have a smartphone myself, but I've heard that the later-gen models of the iphone can't have the data connection shut off. Companies like having the control and not giving it to consumers - I see that being more the case in Shadowrun than today, not less.

I don't see why there needs to be more vulnerability that singles out Street Samurai. They're already next to useless vs Matrix and Magic.

Street sams aren't innately useless - the core books already say that many keep Command programs with them to counter hacking attempts messing with their drones, vehicles, or cyberware, and anybody not running a decent firewall and Analyze is probably asking for it if you're going into a situation that might involve hackers.

Shadowrunners aren't your average consumer.

If a Runner goes into a secure facility emitting signals because he can't shut down the wifi on his iPhone (or cyber) then he's probably in a lot of trouble.

Let's analyze how THAT is going to go down:

First, the average Street Samurai is probably going to alert an expert system or Spider before he even enters the facility. He is a walking bundle of dangerous chrome and smart weapons. If all of these things are insisting on broadcasting, he's going to show up like a technicolor T-Rex before he even gets physically onto the target facility.

Even if you say "No, it's okay, we'll just encrypt our signals!" it doesn't fly, because then you're a big loud beacon of encrypted traffic that won't answer questions like "Who/and or what are you and why are you entering a restricted area?"

You can't "hide" the wireless signals, either, short of jamming, which is a lot like trying to sneak up on someone by masking your footsteps with an airhorn.

Now, you could say "No no, it's really fine, because I'll just turn down the signal until it's too weak to raise any suspicion" - but then, if the signal doesn't extend beyond your person, why in the name of Walter Miller's ghost are you not just wiring your stuff together to begin with?

So, your unfriendly neighborhood Spider now knows you're there, and you're relying on your Command programs and Firewall to save you from having your gear pwnz0rd (which would be bad, because there is now a heavily armed response team en route to your exact location). Are you suggesting that a Street Samurai with a decent Firewall and Command programs is equal to the challenge of fending off a skilled Hacker?

If that is the case, then going to an always-emitting model doesn't address the "perfect defense" issue of simply shutting down your wireless. If it is not the case, then the Street Samurai's weapons and his physical body are under attack from an assailant who could be jacked in from Hong Kong, and all he has to defend himself are the very things that he's losing control of.

So, yeah. If I'm a Decker, I want you to leave your wifi on.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

[Anarkitty]

Yeah, a Command program, a good Firewall, even IC will only slow a hacker down once they can connect to you.  The only things that will actually stop a dedicated Hacker is stopping their icon with cyber combat or stopping them with a few good chunks of high velocity lead.

[Michael Chandra]

If you manage to detect you got a Hacker, however, you can reboot with a flick of the switch, kicking out the hacker. If the reboot also clears out all new admin accounts, then that'd mean they can start again. Which in SR4 takes longer than SR5.

[JoeNapalm]

If you manage to detect you got a Hacker, however, you can reboot with a flick of the switch, kicking out the hacker. If the reboot also clears out all new admin accounts, then that'd mean they can start again. Which in SR4 takes longer than SR5.

That's not very reassuring when the most likely way that a Street Samurai is going to "detect" a Hacker in his 'ware is noticing the muzzle of his own weapon pressed against his temple.

Even if he does detect, you now are rebooting yourself and your weapons while the enemy is aware of you and your location, quite possibly in the middle of a fight.

Where does it say rebooting purges new admin accounts? That doesn't even make sense. You have to reconfigure access rights to all devices on a reboot?

Best case scenario, you reboot and they start over...and then what? Keep rebooting? Rebooting is a stalling tactic, not a defense. Meanwhile, the Ugly Man is coming.

A non-Hacker has three defenses vs a skilled and determined Hacker. Another Hacker, turning off wireless, or going lo-tech.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Michael Chandra]

I didn't say it said that. Hence the "if the reboot", it's a GM call on how much you can reset to 'factory' values and whether it'd cost the hacker his just-made account. Plus the idea is that with a good firewall and analyze you hopefully will spot the hacker before he can take over, meaning you can reboot to knock them out.

And your own gun shouldn't be on your own temple, given how you control the limb through mental commands, which aren't hackable. The worst they could do, if you have your comm connected to a simsystem, is turning the limb off. If they hack into the limb itself, because you're dumb enough to have its wireless on, then yes they can turn it against you.

If a Hacker gets into your communication-comm, you want to reboot to get them out. That reboot simply means you can hopefully keep talking with your teammates while flicking that switch every Combat Turn.

[JoeNapalm]

I didn't say it said that. Hence the "if the reboot", it's a GM call on how much you can reset to 'factory' values and whether it'd cost the hacker his just-made account. Plus the idea is that with a good firewall and analyze you hopefully will spot the hacker before he can take over, meaning you can reboot to knock them out.

If they're bush league, maybe.

If they're good, your Firewall isn't stopping them. Does your team's Hacker say "Aw, man! They've got Analyze and a Firewall! Sorry, guys, I'm done. I can only crack totally defenseless systems."

If so, get a new Hacker.

And your own gun shouldn't be on your own temple, given how you control the limb through mental commands, which aren't hackable. The worst they could do, if you have your comm connected to a simsystem, is turning the limb off. If they hack into the limb itself, because you're dumb enough to have its wireless on, then yes they can turn it against you.[

Really? Because you, yourself, pointed out that isn't true, in this very thread:

Really? Because that is listed in Unwired as a possible example. Or do you mean most GMs wouldn't allow that since it demands too much finetuning the command so is unreasonable as an option unless it's a really well-written virus or a Sprite?

UW 102, in case you forgot where you read that.

If a Hacker gets into your communication-comm, you want to reboot to get them out. That reboot simply means you can hopefully keep talking with your teammates while flicking that switch every Combat Turn.

If you're rebooting every turn, your comms are down. If they're in your comms, you probably won't know it, without a Hacker of your own, and they'll listen in, or better yet, misdirect.

A Hacker is like a Mage. Fight fire with fire. Does your Street Adam try to take on Astral opponents? Then why leave your wifi on?


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Michael Chandra]

And after that question of mine there was a debate on it and under what circumstances actually controlling it, rather than just turning it off, would be possible.

You leave your wireless on because otherwise you can't communicate with your teammates. And the only way you can clear those when hacked is with a reboot.

By the way, you don't need to stop them. What you want is a headsup, realizing something's wrong, so you know your communication channel's compromised.


Wait a sec... You actually agreed with me back then!

Good point. If they manage to get into the limb itself, it'd work. But that's if they get into the limb. If they get into your Sim-system and can only pass on mental commands to the limbs, it'd be a different tale and the best they could do is likely just turning it off.

True, though I'd take dead cyber over dead meat any day!

[JoeNapalm]

I agreed that if they were just in your simrig, they couldn't control it. If they hack your PAN, and get into the 'ware, they can turn it against you.

Not the part about hacking an arm and making it attack the owner.

I've seen several people state that as fact, but none support it with an explanation.


Unwired 102:

It would take too much space to provide an exhaustive list of possibilities, but here are a few examples (players and gamemasters are encouraged to be creative when devising other options—as always, the gamemaster has final say):
• Cybereyes can be shut down or crashed to make the target blind.
• Pre-recorded or self-created (using Computer + Edit) sounds could be played within hacked cy-
berears to make the target hear things.
• Incriminatingevidence(forexample,forgedsmartlinkfootage
of a shooting) could be downloaded into an implant’s memory,
framing the victim for a crime.
• The implant may be activated (for example, triggering foot an-
chor implants to keep someone from running away) or shut down
(turning an internal air tank off, to force them to breathe).
• The target character may be shut out of controlling his own implants by deactivating DNI or altering the account privileges
(requiring a Hacking + Editing Test).
• Seizing control of a cyberarm and using it to attack others, or
even the cyberlimbed character.

Emphasis mine.

Now, yes, there are many defenses and requirements to get to that point, but if you do...they've got a serious problem.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

End of the day, a 'Runner should have three PANs (one to slave 'ware and gear to and keep offline, one in Hidden mode for comms/Tacnet, and one decoy) and a friendly Hacker. You can get by two PANs, but I'd never intentionally expose my weapons and 'ware to wireless.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate