[Maskerade]

I have this idea for an Ork character who likes to be.... well prepared.

I was looking at the full body armour with a helmet, chemical seal, hot environment adaptation, maxed out insulation, fire resistance, nonconductivity and thermal damping, and shock frills.

But then I got to wondering what could be achieved with enough know-how and the right tools, and so here's my proposition:

With a decent armourer active skill (thinking rating 5 at chargen), specialising in armour, a facility for that skill, and a 6/4 fixer (we play 10 BP limit on contacts at chargen) to get a hold of some of the rarer stuff, do you think that the following is possible?

I was thinking along the lines of adding the air tanks from the diving gear (or the equivalent air supply in multiple smaller tanks) and hazmat suit, a back mount for a riot shield, a climbing harness, a few handheld sensors, a powerful and well-defended commlink to run everything, some EW and counter-ECM bits and bobs, two mounting points for S-B microskimmers, a grapple gun and snap-balde on each arm, a shoulder-mounted holo projector, and stripping the bouyancy compensators from the diving gear and integrating them into the suit so that he can reach the surface if he falls into water.

This guy has 12 impact armour, 10 ballistic armour, adds 6 to resistance for electric, fire or cold damage, has an 8-hour internal air supply, complete protection against contact and inhalation chemicals/toxins, is armed to the teeth, and is virtually immune to drowning. He can climb up veritcal surfaces thanks to his gecko tape gloves, see in almost any light conditions, and has 2 flash-paks mounted on his chest which he can mentally trigger in an emergency (everything wired to the commlink) if he needs to get away.

It'd be hugely conspicuous, easy to identify, some of the parts are rated forbidden and/or difficult to get hold of, it would take a while to build and it wouldn't exactly weigh nothing, but it costs less than 190,000 nuyen including the armourer's facility, and that includes a decent stock of weapons, grenades and explosives too.

So in light of this, how far would you (as a GM) allow a player to modify their armor? How far should players try to modify their armour?

[emsquared]

Aside from recommending taking Armorer at either 4 or 6 (not 5), I'd let the player go buck-wild, so long as it worked out logistically. Don't forget they'd have to have the Restricted Gear posi-quality too if they're buying the armor at Chargen.

Like you said, it'd be extremely conspicuous and therefore have pretty limited applications, unless it's a para-military campaign they're engaged in.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Page 44 of Arsenal.  The Full Body Armor suit from SR4a has 8 capacity, and the accompanying helmet has 7.  The chart in the top right shows currently-available mods.  You're free to add to the list, but it'd be a good idea to take those as guidelines for how much capacity each mod would require.

[Reiper]

Page 44 of Arsenal.  The Full Body Armor suit from SR4a has 8 capacity, and the accompanying helmet has 7.  The chart in the top right shows currently-available mods.  You're free to add to the list, but it'd be a good idea to take those as guidelines for how much capacity each mod would require.

As rare as this is, I'm going to have to agree with Feeney here.

Capacity wise, it seems that it would have broken the capacity limit, although since I don't have my book with me to look at I may be off. But it does seem a tad bit excessive.

I would honestly go the route of multiple sets of armor honestly.

1- Full body conforming to fit under your standard armor. Add in all of your shock resist, fire resist, etc here.
1- Chameleon suit, thermal dampening (to help with stealth), possibly use this with your internal air supply, and such with it that way you can use it for infiltration from land or water. And your chemical seal/protection
1 - Standard set - for every day wear around the city, add your shock frills to this, some extra armor, This will be your 2nd lowest armor rating, but it should be suffice to what you may run into on the streets without attracting attention
1 - Fancy set: if you plan on going to someplace fancy, doing some james bond stuff. Again shock frills, some extra armor, a few high tech gadgets, and your claws/spurs whatever
1 - Biker armor w/ helmet, very easy to get 12/12 with this. Very conspicuous but great armor, add in your flashpacks to your chest mount, trick out your helmet, chemical seal.

The problem with going all out on one set, other than being over conspicuous, and making it less useful, you're also risking losing everything at one time rather than risking a more specialized suit that you can replace much easier, and still have plenty of backups for.

[Maskerade]

Page 44 of Arsenal.  The Full Body Armor suit from SR4a has 8 capacity, and the accompanying helmet has 7.

Cheers for that. I don't actually have the arsenal book, so I'm sort of going off of the few books I do have here (which is mostly the core rulebook), with some unwired added in).

I was going in the direction of certain items being built into the armour (vision modes, commlink, biomonitor, grapple guns and snap-blades etc) but to use the facility to buid external hardpoints onto the suit for certain items (jammers, camera and projectors) and then have some stuff pretty much welded to it (air tanks and flash-paks). The rest of the stuff (scanners, knives, pistols, grenades, survival kit) would be either in belt pouches, leg pouches or webbing.

If I bought the facility at chargen, and then just used a well-connected fixer or two to get the armour later, then I could also but a decent safehouse for me to locate the facility in (high security, faraday cage, no-wifi wallpaper, that sort of thing).

Capacity wise, it seems that it would have broken the capacity limit, although since I don't have my book with me to look at I may be off. But it does seem a tad bit excessive.

What can I say? This runner likes to be prepared for anything. It also ensures that there is virtually no situation that they wouldn't be useful in. Note to self. Find a way to add a parachute.

I would honestly go the route of multiple sets of armor.

Some of the gear is not linked to the suit, such as earbuds, contact lenses, and all of the pouched equipment, so I could easily take this with me on a run. The drones, too would make a good pair of scouts, as I gave them trideo cameras. The rest of it would really only be used on high-profile runs (like that rating 10 area jammer).

I'd probably also but him/her an urban explorer jumpsuit with a few upgrades with the spare cash, just so the runner has something to wear on low-level runs.

[Razhul]

Arsenal p.44:
Maximum Armor Modification
...only a limited number of armor modifications (see p.50 or p.327 SR4A) can be applied to a piece of armor or clothing. Each piece of armor or clothing can only accept a total number of modification rating points equal to 6 or the highest number of its armor ratings (Ballistics or Impact) x 1.5 (round up), whichever is higher. Unrated armor modifications (for example, the gel pack mod) take up 1 point.
For example, a lined coat (6/4) can take up to 9 (highest rating 6 x 1.5) rating points of modifications. This means it could be modified with Fire Resistance 5, Insulation 3 and shock frills, but no more (5 + 3 + 1 = 9).

This basically precludes you from making super armor, for game balancing reasons.

[emsquared]

Let's see what we're looking at here then, really.

1-6 fire resistance 6
7-12 non-conductivity 6
13 shock frills.
14 bouyancy (aka Flotation System)
15 hot environment adaptation
16/17 snap-balde on each arm
18 shoulder-mounted holo projector
19/20 gecko tape gloves
21/22 2 flash-paks mounted on his chest
23/24 Skimmers

So it'd take a Heavy Military Amror Suit for 24 slots... and you'd have to forget about thermal damping. Let's be honest, you won't really need it. Gonna stick out like a sore-thumb no-matter the conditions. And really, I'd say a gyromount and some foot anchors would do you more good than the snap blades (if you're down to melee in this crap, you're boned anyway), but whatever.

With a suit of FFFBA underneath (9 Capacity):
1-6 insulation 6
7 chemical seal (roughly same thing as hazmat suit)

And all of the below would have to be worn over the Armor, or in the helmet.
air tanks
back mount for a riot shield
climbing harness
grapple gun
handheld sensors
commlink, EW and ECCM

But, it looks to be sort-of doable, no? Nay-sayers?

[PeterSmith]

But, it looks to be sort-of doable, no? Nay-sayers?

Nay.

Check out the restriction listed at the end of the Military-Grade Armor text on page 50 of Arsenal: "Dartguns, blowguns, needles, and other 0 DV attacks used to expose the target to injection-vector compounds cannot penetrate a full suit of military armor. No other armor can be worn with military-grade armor."

Form-Fitting Body Armor is an armor. In addition, my opinion of Military-Grade armors suggest that a form of FFBA is included in the suit from the start ("...incorporate hard and soft armor integration with an ergonomic design that allows the user to move with as little restriction as possible...", "Each suit must be custom-fit to an individual, tailored to her specific body contours and range of motion...").

[Falconer]

Small point... if you do a full seal with Gas Mask... it already has an air tank.  Bigger one is just a question of duration...

Look at survival gear on page 336.
Gas Mask: This air-supplied respirator completely covers the users face and provides immunity to inhalation-vector toxins.... It comes with a 1 hour clean air supply, and can be attached to larger air tanks.   It cannot be combined with regular respirators.

Respirator:  This is like the old WW1 style gas masks... or what most people associate with MOPP gear...  It's a filter which still breathes the normal air.   Adding the rating of the respirator to toxin resistance tests.


I'm with Peter as well...
Milspec can't be worn on top of FFBA.


That said a full set of heavy milspec + helmet is pretty scary...  It has 20 capacity in the armor, then another 5 in the helmet.  Refer to the capacity rules on p44 for military suits.  It's not 1 point for 1 point of stuff like emsquared just did.  This is actually preferable... (non-conductivity 6 takes up 3 slots not 6.   Though most of the other ones take up more such as skinlink takes up 3 capacity and most of the imaging enhancements get very costly in armor capacity... (so no I don't buy the argument you simply replace the camera with a rating 6 one and put all them in it, not when there are specific rules for adding those extra enhancements to the armor capacity).

The armor itself comes with wireless enabled and a biomonitor stock.
The helmet comes with Commlink (up to rating 6 plus software), camera, flare comp, imagelink, smartlink

Look at page 44 for many of the armor suit capacity costs... then the table on p182 in the back for the rest... some of them like strength upgrade are pretty nifty if you're eyeballing melee.   And some like ruthenium don't use any capacity at all... (as I see it... if you're essentially wandering around in a highly illegal suit of power armor... you might as well go whole hog and complete the ensemble with terminator style mimetic camouflage).

BTW: snap blades are a bit of a stretch when there are rules for putting cyberspurs into the armor itself... that said... a personal favorite for me is always the miniwelder!  Can be used as a weapon... though great for opening... or locking doors... (weld it shut behind you).

[Maskerade]

Small point... if you do a full seal with Gas Mask... it already has an air tank.  Bigger one is just a question of duration...

I figured that for a guy with a high armourer skill and a facility to back him up, linking all of the air supplies together would be a pretty easy thing to do. If not, I can just take the highest air supply (4 hours, from the hazmat suit) and save myself some nuyen on the gas mask.

The snap-blades could be worn over the armour, with the relevant modifications to the sheath, and the same goes for the grapple guns. The gecko-tape gloves would be worn over the AR and rappelling gloves, but wouldn't need a slot in the armour if the armour doesn't cover the hands. If it does, then taking apart the gloves and bonding them to the armour wouldn't be out of the question for a person with a full facility to work with.

I assumed that directly welding things to the armour wouldn't cost capacity. Penalties to do things like move fast or be agile, maybe, but since it's not directly integrated into the armour, it wouldn't take up capacity in said armour. This would make the air tanks more vulnerable, but they're mounted so that when he has his riot shield on his back they're covered by it.

1-6 fire resistance 6

Hmm. If each level of environmental protection costs 1 capacity, I might drop a few levels to be able to integrate more stuff. Do you only need nonconductivity 1 to protect you from shock frills?

The back mount for the riot shield is just 2 hooks with spring latches to prevent it coming off if knocked.

This basically precludes you from making super armor, for game balancing reasons.

It never occured to me that way. I don't like breaking the game, as I tend to go for RP over numerical efficiency, and almost never (intentionally) munchkin, I guess that's an apt description for what I'm doing here. Of course, I'm not trying to add strength mods or kevlar plates to it yet, so the armour itself is going to be quite the encumbrance to the character.

Of course, the concept of super-armour requires a few things:

1. The skills to actually do it, assuming that you don't want to have it made for you, as that would could leave a data trail which would be of great help in identifying a unique set of armour.
2. The tools and materials to do it, which is where the high-up fixer and the facility come in. Getting the actual materials might prove a bit of a challence for the restricted stuff, and the forbidden stuff even more so.
4. The GM's consent. This is by far the most important (rule 0 and all that), as if the GM says no, there is no possible way that the character will ever be able to do it.
5. The down-time to do it. Runners might struggle to find the time to first build up the resources, and then actually fabricate the suit, especially if  work takes them overseas. Considering that this would be a very work intensive task for one person, this could be another obstacle.

And all of the below would have to be worn over the Armor, or in the helmet.

The air tanks, camera, torches, and weapon clips would all be attached to the outside of the suit. That was the reason that I though about the facility, to make some non-standard modifications. The other stuff like the scanners would be mounted in pouches (maybe the motion sensor would have to be taken out to be used) so they wouldn't take up capacity, and the drones are just clamped to the outside, or maybe located in some other pouches.

I envision something a bit like some ungodly hybrid between the trojan, this guy, this one and a few other designs of body armour that I can't pictures of on the internet. I've also attached another picture of the second guy form a different angle.

Forget about thermal damping. Let's be honest, you won't really need it. Gonna stick out like a sore thumb no matter the conditions

You're probably right, but I just figured hey, might as well go for broke with it. The bonus to not be spotted by IR systems is nice, but as you say, if it comes to using this, I'm probably way beyond a situation where stealth could help.

If you're down to melee in this crap, you're boned anyway.

I'd disagree. Being up close with this guy wouldn't be a very smart thing to do, on account of his being heavily armoured, and having a decent resitance to at least a few combat weapons. Seeing as he also has a pair of blades that he can extend and retract with a thought (linked to commlink/trodes), and is unlikely to be knocked over due to having a fair amount of weight behind on him, then you'd be a bit reticent to approach him. He also has a riot shield either protecting his back or repeatedly smacking you in the face, which tends to upset people's concentration. For extra defence I could've made it a SWAT shield, but I thought that might've been overkill.

[RHat]

If you've got all that stuff on you, Encumberance would certainly be a problem - especially because you'd be diving headlong into overmod.  That would cause you serious issues, especially in melee.  If a guy comes at you with, say, a Force 6 Weapon Focus Nodachi, Agility 8, Strength 11, you're looking at something in the area of 26 dice on the attack, a DV of 10, and AP-2, resisted with Impact.  Meanwhile, given your investments, I doubt your Reaction is north of 7, and even if you had Blades 5 with the specialty, encumbrance is dropping you to something like 4 or 5 Reaction, leaving you only about 12 dice to defend with if this is the first attack against you that pass (likely isn't).  With 14 dice over you, the guy averages 4.66 successes.  So against a DV of 14 or 15, you're rolling Impact 16-2+Body, let's say 8.  So, 22 dice for 7.33 expected hits.  So, you're taking 7.33 damage a pass, roughly.  It's Stun, mind you - but your Willpower's probably just 3, so you've got 11 stun boxes.  Congrats, you're knocked out in 2 passes.

So actually, being in melee with this guy is a pretty serviceable way of taking him down.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Wearing heavy armor doesn't make you harder to knock over.

[Mithlas]

Knockdown-wise, no, but since we're all speculating wildly on dice pool probability I think that RHat's point is perfectly valid.

I'd grab a mobility upgrade and try to leave the weapons and air tanks to a back-mounted equipment unit (somewhat like the Dropship Troopers from Starship Troopers, if I remember correctly. It's been a while since I read Heinlein).

[Xzylvador]

IIRC, there are different rules for modding different armors:
- Most armors will have "the total number of modification rating points equal to 6 or the highest number of its armor ratings (Ballistics or Impact) x 1.5 (round up), whichever is higher. " limitation Raz posted from AR44.
- The (military) armor suits from Arsenal has a different kind of calculation, as determined by their available Capacity slots and how many slots each modification takes. Pretty much the same idea as vehicle/weapon modification rules. Here, NOT every rating point = 1 point of capacity. (again, iirc, some mods 1-3 take 1 slot, 4-6 takes 2.Some mods take 5 capacity regardless of its rating. There's a table for it in Arsenal, same page as the one Raz quoted.)

[mtfeeney = Baron]

That's what I said in the third post of this thread.