[Mirikon]

Sonsaku, I suggest you and your players take a look at the 'Friends and Foes' section of the core book. See how many of the characters there have extra IPs.

Extra initiative passes is great as a force multiplier, but it is cost prohibitive to put wires in all your corpsec. Especially since time and numbers are always on a corp's side. The longer a combat goes on, the more noise made, the more the advantage shifts to the corp's favor over the runners, as more forces are called in as backup. If you go through two clips of ammo in a fight and aren't done, you should run, because otherwise you're going to die, or worse.

Remember, a squad of five corpsec doesn't have to kill the runners to win. They just have to get behind cover and stall the runners long enough that backup arrives, and they know it. So things like Suppressing fire, flash-bang grenades, firing from behind cover, and squad tactics becomes far more important. In addition to the fact that the alert will have spiders coming online to fight the hacker in the building's computer, and turn the defenses against the intruders. That's what you're not seeing. Time and numbers. With those things on their side, corpsec at most sites can take a more conservative approach than runners can afford to. Now, at high security, zero zone sites, things are different, but the approach is still the same.

[Carz]

How many enemies NPCs do you usually throw at the PCs? from what i get you usually play 10 to 15 characters on combat and that WAAAAAAY more than what i throw at them. I normally throw their number +2/3.

Not that the question was directed at me, but I'll answer about my game:
I normally figure a combat at even numbers, and then move up from there depending on the situation. But then, I'm also doing a lot of module running right now, and PC# +/- 2 is about what you get in (starting) opposition for fights.

If the fights go long, then yeah, reinforcements are going to arrive, and at least my players are smart enough to not be around for that.

Whats the point of a 2 to 4 second combat? unless they are a street samurai. What narrative porpouse do it acomplish.

Well, 2 to 4 seconds about 1 round, right? A round is listed as 3 seconds long.
So in a 1 round combat, my fastest player will have fired 6 times. In theory that's maybe 6 but more likely 2 or 3 opponents down. So a 1 round combat would be kicking down the door and gunning down the first group of people in the first room of a complex.Or taking out the first group of guards to round a corner, or whatever.

Not likely a full scene itself, but I KNOW I've seen moves that do a quick round of firing, then it gets quiet for a bit, then all heck breaks loose, or the like. So even a short combat can add to narrative.

In my games, it would serve to show 'cyber/magic' beats mundane, which is a theme I want and try to reinforce in my campaign. It may not be a theme in yours (at a guess?), but its a theme and a short combat does reinforce it.
(That or my 'ware/magic was *better* than yours because I'm on the bleeding edge, which is another cool theme).

I normally dont go with the route of making feel to the PCs they are the stars. So unless you follow that DM route in games i dont see what narrative pourpose is acomplished by a combat you and them know well they are gonna win in 2 to 4 seconds.

See this is something I can't understand.
What is the point of a person, a real live person, showing up to play a game if the game isn't going to be about what they do?

That's what it means to be the 'star' of the show: the show is about what you do and what happens to you.
Do you have to be the biggest baddest thing on the planet to be the star? No. In fact you don't have to be any good at all - you can totally suck at what you do, but as long as the game is about what you do and what happens to you, then you are the star.

I've walked from games where what I did as a PC did not have an impact on the plot or story. I'm not there to be read to like a kid, I'm there to DO stuff and see things react to what I do, and change the plot and story.



I tell you from experience though, that its been a heck of a lot easier to change where the story goes for me by being pretty good at doing *something* as a PC. I suspect that ability to more greatly affect the outcome is one of prime motivators for making effective characters.


Now maybe that's not what you meant by 'star'. Maybe you were going with the idea that you don't have to make them feel like 'kings of the world', and you're right, you don't.

But if you are trying to 'respect' the SR setting, then people with extra IPs ARE fast and ARE special because of it. You don't have to like the setting to play in SR, but that runs down the path of 'but why are you playing then', so I have to assume that the setting is desirable to play up as part of the adventure that occurs.


I want to reinforce that aspect of the story, because I like that about the setting. There are plenty of things that can be brought in to 'humble' the PCs, but if you just do that and don't empower them as well, I find it makes a pretty short lived game.

[Shamie]

I should point out that your rule makes extra passes rewarding for precisely no one.  It takes very specific builds for splitting your dice pool to not be horrible under the current rules.

Also, I don't know NWoD to make a direct comparison, but I am absolutely certain you're not including enough data to make that comparison.  How is damage determined in NWoD?  How much damage can be taken?  Are there ways to reduce that damage?  That's just for starters.  They're different systems, and you cannot simply compare attack/defense to see which one is deadlier.

Well i try to make it so it only benefit combat focus PCs and that pass IP2 only NPCs should have competence with those.

well actually i explain my players that SR is NWOD with D6s

an atacker rolls: Attribute (1-5) + skill (1-5) +/- mods - defender defense (a fixed number usually 2 - 3) the result success from than(8,9 or 10 and the 10 explodes always) + the weapon rating determine the damage
For example i have 4 on atrribute + 4 on skill - 1 for defender armor (modifier) - 3 for defenders defense. i would throw 4 dices from those 4 dices i get 3 success so i would make 3 points of damage + my sword rating that is 2 for wich i would make 5 points damage in total (3+2). And thats it that the damage you take there is no soaking roll for it. if the attack connect you take damage end of story.
Normally character can take from 7 - 8 point of damage.

They are very similar systems one with d6 but the rolls are att + skill.

the probability of success on nwod is 3/10 wich is 0.3 while SR is 2/6 wich is 0,33 but NWoD 10s always explode.

 

[Carz]

well actually i explain my players that SR is NWOD with D6s

SR4 is much more like *old* WoD than NWoD.

The old one had both a dodge and a soak roll. The new one... well I just tried to look at three different NWoD core books (Vamp, Mage and Werewolf) and can't find an example of combat in them at all. What I was able to cobble together is that you are correct and that its a roll to hit, with modifiers penalizing that roll. I didn't see a roll for the defender, but again I couldn't find a combat section or example in three books, so... yeah.

What you might want to consider, if you just going for 'one roll on each side' is eliminate the DODGE roll, and mash that in with the armor soak, so you have Attrib+Skill vs Reaction+armor.

That would be reasonable close to what SR4 actually does, but eliminates one extra roll from the process. Still makes it more deadly since there's a lesser chance to get away with no damage like there is with a separate dodge roll.



Based on what it seems like your saying is that your version would have a modifier of the target's armor penalize the attacker's roll. What do you do when armor is higher than their die pool? Let them roll something anyway, negating some amount of the benefit of the target's armor, or rule they can't roll, negating the ability to do the target any damage?

[All4BigGuns]

well actually i explain my players that SR is NWOD with D6s

SR4 is much more like *old* WoD than NWoD.

The old one had both a dodge and a soak roll. The new one... well I just tried to look at three different NWoD core books (Vamp, Mage and Werewolf) and can't find an example of combat in them at all. What I was able to cobble together is that you are correct and that its a roll to hit, with modifiers penalizing that roll. I didn't see a roll for the defender, but again I couldn't find a combat section or example in three books, so... yeah.

What you might want to consider, if you just going for 'one roll on each side' is eliminate the DODGE roll, and mash that in with the armor soak, so you have Attrib+Skill vs Reaction+armor.

That would be reasonable close to what SR4 actually does, but eliminates one extra roll from the process. Still makes it more deadly since there's a lesser chance to get away with no damage like there is with a separate dodge roll.



Based on what it seems like your saying is that your version would have a modifier of the target's armor penalize the attacker's roll. What do you do when armor is higher than their die pool? Let them roll something anyway, negating some amount of the benefit of the target's armor, or rule they can't roll, negating the ability to do the target any damage?

Melee in NWoD is Attribute + Skill + modifier for weapon - opponent armor - opponent Defense score (a derived attribute that I forget how to calculate).

Ranged in NWoD is Attribute + Skill + modifier for weapon - opponent armor

Nowhere does the opponent receive a defense.

As to the question about if a pool is reduced to zero, NWoD has something called a "chance die", and if reduced to that, one must roll a 10 to get a success and a 1 means you're flat screwed.

[RHat]

First, I understand what you were going for.  I'm trying to explain what you actually have.  Other than some very, very, very specific melee adepts, splitting your dice pool just sucks - some highly, highly skilled shooters can manage two pools, but outside of that it's only when you're stacking modifiers for weapon focus, specialization, reach, and personalized grip that you can manage multiple split pools.  If you're an elf street sam with WR2, AGI8, and Automatics 6, and a smartlink, you've only got a base pool of 14 before smartlink.  If you have to split that 3 ways, you're looking at 5/5/4, +2 to each for smartlink, so 7/7/6.  That's not functional for a combat specialist.  This is what I mean when I say that your houserule makes WR utterly worthless for anyone.

As for your change to the damage rules, I see part of the issue.  A standard shotgun has a base DV of 7.  Load it with EX-Ex for 8.  That means 1 net hit kills anything with less than 3 Body, 2 kills anything with less than 5, 3 kills anything with less than 7, 4 kills anything with less than 9...  The base damage in Shadowrun is much, much higher.  A troll with augmented strength 11 and a claymore does a base DV of 10.  The system already tends towards being extremely lethal, your houserule makes it nigh-impossible to survive (with the exception of extremely armoured trolls, who now simply can't be stopped).

[All4BigGuns]

The base damage in Shadowrun is much, much higher.  A troll with augmented strength 11 and a claymore does a base DV of 10.  The system already tends towards being extremely lethal, your houserule makes it nigh-impossible to survive (with the exception of extremely armoured trolls, who now simply can't be stopped).

Troll with Strength 11 nothing. I've got that Elf with an effective Strength 7 that deals only 1 less than that with a normal sword and not a claymore--granted, he's one of those few builds that splitting doesn't hurt quite as badly...

[Shaidar]

De-centralizing Combat in your stories might serve you better than monkeying with the system mechanics.

Playing up the Negotiation and Sneaking aspects of the game could de-emphasize the need for more than 2 IPs.  Try for unsuspected and undetected over the mass of flying lead and big booms.  I've always been more impressed with runners that don't shoot everything that moves in a corp facility.

[Shamie]

I tell you from experience though, that its been a heck of a lot easier to change where the story goes for me by being pretty good at doing *something* as a PC. I suspect that ability to more greatly affect the outcome is one of prime motivators for making effective characters.


Now maybe that's not what you meant by 'star'. Maybe you were going with the idea that you don't have to make them feel like 'kings of the world', and you're right, you don't.

But if you are trying to 'respect' the SR setting, then people with extra IPs ARE fast and ARE special because of it. You don't have to like the setting to play in SR, but that runs down the path of 'but why are you playing then', so I have to assume that the setting is desirable to play up as part of the adventure that occurs.


I want to reinforce that aspect of the story, because I like that about the setting. There are plenty of things that can be brought in to 'humble' the PCs, but if you just do that and don't empower them as well, I find it makes a pretty short lived game.

i was refering to not to let them think they are kings of the world.

The thing is IPs high lost his specialness when everyone has them, it stop being special and becomes a nesecity

if you are a street samurai and you want to clean a room with guard in 3 seconds, yeah go ahead is you made that character for that

However when the face who only put a little on combat do the same with 3 ips per turn. It kinda devaluates the whole thing.

From what i read in this post wired seems to be the equalizer so shadowrunners can take on 10 to 15 enemies at once and live through that. So in short is useless on both parts.
its useless in the sense that my players are never gonna run into that kind of scenario because micro manage 15 NPC is a just headache. Instead of 15 weak security guard i preffer to put 6 strong ones who gonna have wired to match their own. So if both sides gonna have them may as well remove it.
Its useless from me to try to tweak a mecanic that exist to allow a type of game that i just dont do (5 PC vs hordes). In conclusion i understand the need of the mechanic and why it was messing with my game. As is a mechanic for high powered game wich i dont do.

The technomancer/hacker house rules lose effect too as now everyone is gonna have 1IP so that goes too. The just gonna hack guns and stuff from AR and be done with it too.

As for your change to the damage rules, I see part of the issue.  A standard shotgun has a base DV of 7.  Load it with EX-Ex for 8.  That means 1 net hit kills anything with less than 3 Body, 2 kills anything with less than 5, 3 kills anything with less than 7, 4 kills anything with less than 9...  The base damage in Shadowrun is much, much higher.  A troll with augmented strength 11 and a claymore does a base DV of 10.  The system already tends towards being extremely lethal, your houserule makes it nigh-impossible to survive (with the exception of extremely armoured trolls, who now simply can't be stopped).

well getting hit with a shotgun in close range should kill you or if you have enough armor to make stun damage it should knock you out. And being hit with a claymore in the hand of a super strong troll should end you unless you got the swordmanship or reflex to avoid it. Maybe its a highpowered game thing of taking a shotgun to the face and live but i have to say that is not my coup of tea

My first session of SR i used that one as i missunderstood the rules. It was fun, high pace combat in wich they use every single cover/armor and bonus they could and the only time they got in trouble was against a group of shadowrunners with assault riffles in close combat with little to no cover. And the only time one almost died was an assault riffle in close range without cover (granted i made the NPC to dont use full auto but still). However since then i read properly and where playing the game with the soaking and it drags down forever. The pcs get shot and they soak, the enemies get shot and soak, the combat goes on and on and on. They make a very good shot but them after soaking is just a scratch wound. 3 rolls per attack wich both have to reference and calculate and calculated modiefiers on both sides.

[Mournclaw]

Ok, so ignoring half the discussion I can't bother to read, I'll give you some streamlining houseruling suggestions. I'll try to maintain the purpose you seemed to want and make it even easier if possible.

1) Here's what I use for heavily combat oriented campaings, same category of combat stramlining: I roll the attack roll normally, just minus the dodge dice of the opponent. If the dice pool goes zero or negative, I only count 6's as success. That streamlines the combat quite well, since low-end lotsa mob attacks can be rolled just as a handful of dice and see of many five's or sixes there are and that's the number of hits. I also always just default the damage soak roll of the average enemy.
  Doesn't tweak the system balance too much, but streamlines the combat very well. With some cost at realism of chances, of course... But that's not an issue for our group.

2) Won't say anything, we don't really use hackers that much anyways. I don't even know the IP rules for them, so I couldn't say if this was a good or bad ruling.

3) IP's... well, to make them less appealing, just double or triple the price on them wired reflexes. We streamline the extra ip's anyways so that all the basic rate movement is done in the first pass and the running skill check increases the distance when rolled (you know, the simple actions you make to run a bit farther). So it's a move or attack situation anyways. I don't really know about the dice pool splitting... You could instead rule that passes after the second have only a simple action (and the usual free one) available... Though I wouldn't use it at least while doubling or tripling the prices. That not only would penalize just a little bit less than dice pool splitting, but it also would be more streamlined... No mathing around with the dice pools.

[Carz]

The thing is IPs high lost his specialness when everyone has them, it stop being special and becomes a nesecity

Well, what I first got out of your goal was that you wanted to 'reserve extra IPs for combat characters', to which I think the majority reply was that extra IPs are inherently useful, but more useful to some characters than others, and have diminishing returns anyway. Summarized that means that combat characters will get more IPs than non-combat, but everyone will want some, and will sacrifice to get at least one extra, just to stand above 'mundane street gangers' or the like.

Now it sounds like you don't want any extra IPs in your game at all. And you can certainly do that, and its vastly simpler than trying to achieve the 'limited desirability' that seemed to be your initial goal.

However when the face who only put a little on combat do the same with 3 ips per turn. It kinda devaluates the whole thing.

Unless the face isn't a great Face, or they are indeed a Face/Sam, I don't see the Face getting 3 IPs. I see them getting 2IPs, sure since everyone wants at least one extra, but not 3.

From what i read in this post wired seems to be the equalizer so shadowrunners can take on 10 to 15 enemies at once and live through that. So in short is useless on both parts.

Its not always about facing groups 3 to 4 times your size. Just one or two more opponents than your team is enough to make a combat hard. Looking at my group, the Phys Ad is our 'combat person' with the Mystic Adept in second place via combat spells; the AI supports with Drones and the Technomancer with Pistol fire. Thus the bulk of combat falls on the two magic users, which can easily be overwhelmed by having just a couple more opponents on the board, not 5 to 10 more opponents.


Plus, extra IPs put the PCs above being rolled by a bunch of homeless for their gear.
Sounds funny when I say that. But yeah, YOU may not run the PCs up against 10 or 15 opponents, but that doesn't mean there aren't legit situations where they SHOULD face that many. Biker gang, or squatter turf, the PCs are there doing their thing, and if maybe negotiation with the gang goes south, or the squatters think the PCs are weak, then the PCs get jumped.

Without extra IPs, the PCs start looking weak to 'normal folks'.

If that's a theme you want, then that's a way to do it, easy. In my games I want the PCs to be a cut above squatters/gangers (because corps don't hire gangers for 5K a head to break into other corps secret facilities and steal data, and they do pay that kind of cred to shadowrunners...)

well getting hit with a shotgun in close range should kill you or if you have enough armor to make stun damage it should knock you out.

I don't believe the example specified range, but since damage doesn't decrease over range (except for some lost range penalty dice) range really doesn't matter - they could be firing from across th street instead of point blank. And in your house ruled combat system, I'm not seeing a way that armor *could* decrease lethal to stun, since it's taken off the attackers die pool to start with.

And being hit with a claymore in the hand of a super strong troll should end you unless you got the swordmanship or reflex to avoid it.

Or maybe good armor and high body?
Like maybe your playing a big, tough Troll as well?

SR is an action game, whose rules mimic Hollywood combat more than real life combat.

Maybe its a highpowered game thing of taking a shotgun to the face and live but i have to say that is not my coup of tea

If you use the actual rules, which would be a called shot to bypass armor, i.e. 'shooting them in the face' (which effectively is what your house rules DO ALL THE TIME by subtracting the armor from the attackers 'to hit' pool), then few characters do survive that type of attack.

Maybe you weren't seeing that your house rule was actually already in existence as an optional attack form, and a very deadly one at that - attacking to bypass armor?

[Shamie]

Maybe its a highpowered game thing of taking a shotgun to the face and live but i have to say that is not my coup of tea

If you use the actual rules, which would be a called shot to bypass armor, i.e. 'shooting them in the face' (which effectively is what your house rules DO ALL THE TIME by subtracting the armor from the attackers 'to hit' pool), then few characters do survive that type of attack.

Maybe you weren't seeing that your house rule was actually already in existence as an optional attack form, and a very deadly one at that - attacking to bypass armor?

i think we have a misunderstanding here. I never mention armor in my house rule. Its the regular combat rules in shadowrun without the soaking rolls. the atack should surpass armor for it do lethal damage.

3) IP's... well, to make them less appealing, just double or triple the price on them wired reflexes. We streamline the extra ip's anyways so that all the basic rate movement is done in the first pass and the running skill check increases the distance when rolled (you know, the simple actions you make to run a bit farther). So it's a move or attack situation anyways. I don't really know about the dice pool splitting... You could instead rule that passes after the second have only a simple action (and the usual free one) available... Though I wouldn't use it at least while doubling or tripling the prices. That not only would penalize just a little bit less than dice pool splitting, but it also would be more streamlined... No mathing around with the dice pools.

actually that a pretty good idea, make reflex 2 or 3 times expensive. Im gonna try that one.

[Carz]

i think we have a misunderstanding here. I never mention armor in my house rule. Its the regular combat rules in shadowrun without the soaking rolls. the atack should surpass armor for it do lethal damage.

Wait, what?

So armor in your game isn't going to do anything other than maybe convert lethal to non lethal?

Wow that's a huge change in favor of taking damage fast.

Walking around naked (no armor) gets you killed fast; walking around in the heaviest 'normal looking armor' (Armor Jacket), still gets you killed fast as I'd say at least half the incoming damage will be higher than 8, and wearing as much armor as you can cram on just makes you go KO instead.

I envy the drone rigger in your game (assuming you have one). He's the only one going to survive a normal fight.

actually that a pretty good idea, make reflex 2 or 3 times expensive. Im gonna try that one.

Smart players will get their IPs elsewhere, like I mentioned earlier.

Given all the stuff you have talked about so far, just get rid of extra IPs in your game, its easier and more fair to all character concepts.



Have you talked to your players yet about your house rules?
Have they read the rules themselves so they know the difference between what you are proposing and the core?
What types of characters are they playing or will be playing?

[All4BigGuns]

Seriously, if combat is taking that long, then one of two things is the cause. Either one or more people in the group do not actually understand the rules, or there is a lot of going off on tangents occurring during game sessions (pretty much every group I've been in has been guilty of the second).

[RHat]

As for your change to the damage rules, I see part of the issue.  A standard shotgun has a base DV of 7.  Load it with EX-Ex for 8.  That means 1 net hit kills anything with less than 3 Body, 2 kills anything with less than 5, 3 kills anything with less than 7, 4 kills anything with less than 9...  The base damage in Shadowrun is much, much higher.  A troll with augmented strength 11 and a claymore does a base DV of 10.  The system already tends towards being extremely lethal, your houserule makes it nigh-impossible to survive (with the exception of extremely armoured trolls, who now simply can't be stopped).

well getting hit with a shotgun in close range should kill you or if you have enough armor to make stun damage it should knock you out. And being hit with a claymore in the hand of a super strong troll should end you unless you got the swordmanship or reflex to avoid it. Maybe its a highpowered game thing of taking a shotgun to the face and live but i have to say that is not my coup of tea

My first session of SR i used that one as i missunderstood the rules. It was fun, high pace combat in wich they use every single cover/armor and bonus they could and the only time they got in trouble was against a group of shadowrunners with assault riffles in close combat with little to no cover. And the only time one almost died was an assault riffle in close range without cover (granted i made the NPC to dont use full auto but still). However since then i read properly and where playing the game with the soaking and it drags down forever. The pcs get shot and they soak, the enemies get shot and soak, the combat goes on and on and on. They make a very good shot but them after soaking is just a scratch wound. 3 rolls per attack wich both have to reference and calculate and calculated modiefiers on both sides.

In simulation terms, certainly a shotgun should be that lethal.  But this is a game, not a simulation.  I don't think your players are going to want to have to make new characters every other session.

Also, for the most part, soak rolls aren't going to be complete soak.  If an NPC has Body 3 and 6 Ballistic armour, on average it will soak 3 points of damage.  If they have Reaction 3, as well, on average they will generate one hit on defense.  If the Street Sam has 15 shooting dice, and even just 5 points of RC with an Assault Rifle, they can fire 2 short narrow bursts (adjusted DV of 8 ) and expect to generate 5 hits, and thus 4 net hits, on each attack - dealing a DV of 12 before soak, and doing so twice (and I'm not factoring AP or ammo types).  Factoring for soak, that's 18 damage in the pass.  If enemies have been constantly soaking large shares of the damage, I expect you're handling something wrong.