[All4BigGuns]

If ALL of the players have started with lifestyles at Low or less in creation, then by all means use those low pay-outs at first and increase later, but if even one has started with Middle or High at creation, then the pay should be higher. If a GM's storyline requires low pay-outs despite this, then he needs to rework the story.

If part of what you're basing pay-outs on is "realism", things also need to be reworked. "Realism" and Game Enjoyment are mutually exclusive, one must have one or the other, both is not possible.

"Realism" <--------------------|--------------------> Game Enjoyment

[Lumen]

While I love reading all the debate and valid points for each side it's gotten away from what I need.  It was the first run and for a small time gang.  The runs will increase in risk and pay as the party progresses but I would still like the option for them to make some extra cash during down times, especially during the first handful of games before they start making some real money running.

So what do you guys think of allowing appropriate skill tests to pay Hits x 200 nuyen?

[All4BigGuns]

While I love reading all the debate and valid points for each side it's gotten away from what I need.  It was the first run and for a small time gang.  The runs will increase in risk and pay as the party progresses but I would still like the option for them to make some extra cash during down times, especially during the first handful of games before they start making some real money running.

So what do you guys think of allowing appropriate skill tests to pay Hits x 200 nuyen?

Skill Rating x 1000 would be better.

It still should not ever be necessary.

[Lumen]

I don't think it's necessary but my players want the option.   Thanks for the input.

[Mirikon]

What time frame is that test for, Lumen? I'd do Hits*100 for a day's work hustling, Hits*1000 for a week.

[emsquared]

What time frame is that test for, Lumen? I'd do Hits*100 for a day's work hustling, Hits*1000 for a week.

So you're proposing that if the guy has a 4 LOG and a 4 Automotive Mechanic skill he's looking at 2,666 dollars per week - on average - to not risk life and limb (that's 138K per year, btw).

If you're paying them 7500 per run, and there's 3 or 4 PCs, they're then making 2500 to 1875 per Run (which is what? 1 week to plan and execute, 1 week for cool-down?). That's 1250 to 937 per week doing what the game is supposed to be about... You're shortly gonna have a party of Shop owners, enjoy.

Assuming there's 4 Runners and they do 2 Runs a month, you'd have to pay them 21,333 per Run just to match that day job...

Criminy just pay them more to play the game normally.

[Mirikon]

There's also the matter of paying rent on the space, buying the proper tools, etc. But you are right, that seems a bit high. Hits*500, then?

Anyways, the point, which you seem to be missing, emsquared, is that not all people are cut out to run a shop long term, or do the wageslave life. The only people who choose the shadows are the ones who see it as a step up from where they're at, or the ones who want the 'freedom' of being their own masters. Everyone else is thrown into it, because they don't have much choice.

[Reaver]

I would say look at the "day job" quality for your payouts for an honest job's pay. If you make earning money through a hits based system linked to a skill or group of skills, you run the risk of setting up even more debates with your players as you have seen here...

The other side of the coin is, if it's so easy for the characters to earn money with out the normal constraints (like needing a valid SIN, or license, or permits, etc) why didn't they just do that in the first place? While money shouldn't be the only reason why someone runs the shadows, as mentioned before, for some it IS the only option to make a living.

Also, unless you are looking at this as a spring board for mission ideas (as said earlier, the Mob comes by the mechanic's shop looking for protection money, etc), I wouldn't make the payouts for a day job all that rewarding, and use the time spent working against any time spent learning new skills or acquiring new gear.

[emsquared]

Anyways, the point, which you seem to be missing, emsquared, is that not all people are cut out to run a shop long term, or do the wageslave life.

Nah, not missing the point, just making a counter-point.

Why reward mundane activity like this in any worthwhile fashion? If the whole table finds it enjoyable, that's cool I guess, but it just baffles me how a GM could enjoy slogging through the "okay, let's all make our part-time job rolls" part of the session. I'd rather be exploring personal storylines in down-time or, heck, advance the campaign story arc even? Crazy, I know. I guess, we only play once a week for ~5 hrs, so maybe we tend to try and keep things moving more than others, just don't understand the point of this when you could just put whatever average pay is determined to be appropriate into their run pay and it'd be the same thing minus the lame and lost time.

[RHat]

Anyways, the point, which you seem to be missing, emsquared, is that not all people are cut out to run a shop long term, or do the wageslave life.

Nah, not missing the point, just making a counter-point.

Why reward mundane activity like this in any worthwhile fashion? If the whole table finds it enjoyable, that's cool I guess, but it just baffles me how a GM could enjoy slogging through the "okay, let's all make our part-time job rolls" part of the session. I'd rather be exploring personal storylines in down-time or, heck, advance the campaign story arc even? Crazy, I know. I guess, we only play once a week for ~5 hrs, so maybe we tend to try and keep things moving more than others, just don't understand the point of this when you could just put whatever average pay is determined to be appropriate into their run pay and it'd be the same thing minus the lame and lost time.

And thus we have the reason why Day Job offers static pay.

[All4BigGuns]

The point still stands that if the players are looking for other ways to make nuyen besides runs, then pay-outs need to be increased until they're satisfied enough that they aren't looking for such.

[RHat]

The point still stands that if the players are looking for other ways to make nuyen besides runs, then pay-outs need to be increased until they're satisfied enough that they aren't looking for such.

There ARE other possible reasons why they might do something like this.

[All4BigGuns]

The point still stands that if the players are looking for other ways to make nuyen besides runs, then pay-outs need to be increased until they're satisfied enough that they aren't looking for such.

There ARE other possible reasons why they might do something like this.

Possible, yes. Probable? No.

[RHat]

Someone having a character concept that called for them to pursue additional means of making money is far from improbable, and is just one potential explanation.

[Mirikon]

So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.