[emsquared]

It's a game. We play it to have fun.

Ask the players why they are doing these work-a-day jobs. If it's because they enjoy it, then by all means keep on enjoying oil changes. If it's because they're not having fun due to a dearth of funds, you need to make the game fun. Make 'em earn it, of course, but you can earn good pay with any character - it's the GMs job to make sure of this (i.e. tailor the game to your players, challenge them, make it interesting, but let them play - not work), this premise of the "level of the job" is an entirely subjective premise and is not a part of any metric other than the one you make up at your table (which should be made up to fit your players). You can do million dollar jobs out of the gate if you want to (i.e. if that's the M.O. of the table), the only reason you should ever have your PCs doing oil changes is if they find it fun.

After 1 run (you did say you've only done 1 run, right?), they may just not have an idea of what's coming (and hopefully better things are coming) and are just feeling insecure for the moment (which is fine, for now), but if they persist in trying to earn money doing mundane jobs, I'm sorry - if there's 1 thing I hate, it's people telling people how to play the game - but chances are they aren't doing it for fun, or character development, and if they're not having fun why are you playing?

(I can't believe A4BG and I agree on something...)

[All4BigGuns]

So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.

That may be using "realism", but in this case "realism" needs to go into the other room so the grown-ups can do their thing.

[farothel]

Another option is to use the day-jobs to get something else then just nuyen.  This of course depends on the type of day-job.

To give an example.  I had an ex-combat biker who now ran the shadows (we played in Paris).  her 'day'-job was a bit like what Dom Toretto did on 'The fast and the furious', having a garage that did tune-ups and at night racing with the bike.  the GM never gave me loads of money from that, but after a while I had a lot of contacts in certain areas which could help me on my runs.  And to keep the contact ratings up, I did from time to time some illegal mods (my garage was in an area where police normally didn't show, but I tuned the bikes of the local go-gang and in exchange they protected me).  As all players had something like this, we would get our runs from time to time through the day-jobs (someone comes to my garage for an oil change and also because he heard from someone else that I can 'arrange' things).

Also, and this was particular to our game, we used shadowrun for when not all the players could show up for another campaign, so that way those day-jobs were very useful in explaining absences ("he's not there, he's in Germany picking up spare parts").

I would say that with some work, you can make those day-jobs a lot more than just a way to get more money.

[Mirikon]

So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.

That may be using "realism", but in this case "realism" needs to go into the other room so the grown-ups can do their thing.

No, it isn't using "realism". It is using "'up up down down left right left right b a' does jack in this game, as do any other cheat codes."

[ZeConster]

So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.

That may be using "realism", but in this case "realism" needs to go into the other room so the grown-ups can do their thing.

If your players expect to get things without earning them, I wouldn't exactly call them grown-ups. There's nothing wrong with expecting your players' characters to put in effort proportionate to the payoff.
Anyway, the game already provides a very simple way for players to save money while still getting a better Lifestyle: roommates. If 2 players share a Middle Lifestyle, that's 2750/month/person instead of 5000, which means they only pay 750 extra compared to seperate Low Lifestyles.

[Black]

So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.

That may be using "realism", but in this case "realism" needs to go into the other room so the grown-ups can do their thing.

If your players expect to get things without earning them, I wouldn't exactly call them grown-ups. There's nothing wrong with expecting your players' characters to put in effort proportionate to the payoff.
Anyway, the game already provides a very simple way for players to save money while still getting a better Lifestyle: roommates. If 2 players share a Middle Lifestyle, that's 2750/month/person instead of 5000, which means they only pay 750 extra compared to seperate Low Lifestyles.

This assumes that improving a lifestyle is the PC's actual motivation.  Plenty of characters don't have motivations like this at all.

[summers307]

The nuyen from the lifestyle section indicates what they make in there spare time. With this though, I think it's possible to use this as a story element that can encourage the PC's to flesh out their characters more. For example, I played as Ping, a Chinese martial artist and sword man who had a vehement loathing towards cyberwared individuals. When the question of what he did in his spare time came up, I created that he fought in cage matches (like wolverine in the first Xmen movie) to scrape up his daily allowances. This was to pay menial bills and also to hone his fighting skills. Though we didn't actually play out the fights, it did add an element to who Ping was, and in addition created a sub plot that was used later for the group campaign.

So my stance on the matter is more or less agreeing with what was said in the beginning of the thread; the PC's need to be paid more for there runs if something as simple as the electric bill or ammo is still hard to pay for. If they really want to do side jobs to earn more then what is fair though, try working it in to role-playing and see if it can enrich the sessions.

[ZeConster]

So, because a player wants a new plane, they should automatically get payouts to make it happen? I'm sorry, but no. You make them work for it, make them earn it, or make them steal it and spend the time scrubbing the tags. Payouts should reflect the level of the job, and the reputation of the group, not what the players want. If they want better payouts, then they need to get the higher risk, better paying jobs. Of course, you don't get those jobs until you've proven you can handle your current level well enough that someone is willing to take a chance on you.

That may be using "realism", but in this case "realism" needs to go into the other room so the grown-ups can do their thing.

If your players expect to get things without earning them, I wouldn't exactly call them grown-ups. There's nothing wrong with expecting your players' characters to put in effort proportionate to the payoff.
Anyway, the game already provides a very simple way for players to save money while still getting a better Lifestyle: roommates. If 2 players share a Middle Lifestyle, that's 2750/month/person instead of 5000, which means they only pay 750 extra compared to seperate Low Lifestyles.

This assumes that improving a lifestyle is the PC's actual motivation.  Plenty of characters don't have motivations like this at all.

Actually, it's not so much an assumption about your PC's motivations as it is a response to All4BigGuns's opinion that if your characters don't get enough nuyen to both be able to afford a Middle Lifestyle and save a decent amount of nuyen per month for character advancement, you should simply give them more nuyen.
Of course, if your PCs aren't interested in improving their lifestyle and stick with Low, getting enough income for character advancement shouldn't be an issue at all - if it is, you're definitely not giving them enough nuyen. Extra revenue streams should only be needed if someone wants something really expensive.

[Lumen]

What time frame is that test for, Lumen? I'd do Hits*100 for a day's work hustling, Hits*1000 for a week.

I was thinking by day or couple of days depending on the task, as they are doing other things during downtime.  Thanks for the input. I think a couple hundred a day for a

[All4BigGuns]

Extra revenue streams should only be needed if someone wants something really expensive.

And by really expensive, this should mean a fighter jet, Lobo or Banshee.

[Michael Chandra]

Honestly, it depends on the scale the GM is going for.

[JoeNapalm]

Just scraping by is a staple of the Cyberpunk genre.

Molly Millions worked as a meat puppet to pay for her augs.

Johnny Mnemonic sold his childhood memories simply for more wet storage to make enough to pay off his.

Case blew all his money on drugs. They had to GIVE him a deck so he could run, when they hired him.

Hiro Protagonist lived in a storage unit and was a pizza Delivererator for the LCN.

People don't Run because it's the best payday. People run because they have no other options, because they're SINless, because they have debts they can't pay, because their Wageslave job is a dead end, because its the only skillset they have, etc...

They do it because it is the only way out.

If you, as GM, feel that the PC's should be able to afford whatever they want, whenever they want, from the word go...that is your prerogative. But it certainly isn't WRONG to have them barely paying the rent on a crappy hole somewhere, especially to start - that should be the norm.

From a GM perspective - having run many successful long term campaigns, having all the money you want all the time isn't generally healthy for a game. Everybody wants to be a rockstar, but they savor it more if they earn it. Even running a 500BP "elite" group, most players should have a reason to be rich and still Running. For most, being rich is the end goal, not an immediate side-effect.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Lumen]

Just scraping by is a staple of the Cyberpunk genre.

Molly Millions worked as a meat puppet to pay for her augs.

Johnny Mnemonic sold his childhood memories simply for more wet storage to make enough to pay off his.

Case blew all his money on drugs. They had to GIVE him a deck so he could run, when they hired him.

Hiro Protagonist lived in a storage unit and was a pizza Delivererator for the LCN.

People don't Run because it's the best payday. People run because they have no other options, because they're SINless, because they have debts they can't pay, because their Wageslave job is a dead end, because its the only skillset they have, etc...

They do it because it is the only way out.

If you, as GM, feel that the PC's should be able to afford whatever they want, whenever they want, from the word go...that is your prerogative. But it certainly isn't WRONG to have them barely paying the rent on a crappy hole somewhere, especially to start - that should be the norm.

From a GM perspective - having run many successful long term campaigns, having all the money you want all the time isn't generally healthy for a game. Everybody wants to be a rockstar, but they savor it more if they earn it. Even running a 500BP "elite" group, most players should have a reason to be rich and still Running. For most, being rich is he goal, not an immediate side-effect.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

+1 to that Joe, I agree.

[Angelone]

The whole cyberpunk is scraping by doesn't really apply, because Shadowrun is more than just cyberpunk. It's cyberpunk plus magic, there's a huge difference. Why should a mage or adept run the shadows? Even SINless mages and adepts would get snapped up quickly by the corps or government because they are so rare. Them having to just scrape by makes no sense. Being paid enough to keep a roof over your head, ammo in your guns, and some left over to save up for something is much easier to believe and also play. I'm not the first to say this but if I can make more money boosting cars and selling them than I can doing shadowruns, which break more laws and are more dangerous, I'll boost the cars.

[emsquared]

Just scraping by is a staple of the Cyberpunk genre.

Molly Millions worked as a meat puppet to pay for her augs.

Johnny Mnemonic sold his childhood memories simply for more wet storage to make enough to pay off his.

Case blew all his money on drugs. They had to GIVE him a deck so he could run, when they hired him.

Hiro Protagonist lived in a storage unit and was a pizza Delivererator for the LCN.

It's true. And character flaws and dramatic devices are staples of novels. Is there a connection between the two? Yes.

And how long did the author focus on these day jobs in their stories? Yeah, about one paragraph (which is to say, not long). Yes, it's also true that these (character flaws and dramatic devices) should also be staples of RPGs. But, the OP didn't particularly make it sound like these were goals of the inclusion of "day jobs". It sounded like "I'm surprised that my players are taking game time trying to figure out how to get more nuyen, tell me what to pay them for a dice roll", and I don't see the point in that.

People don't Run because it's the best payday. People run because they have no other options, because they're SINless, because they have debts they can't pay, because their Wageslave job is a dead end, because its the only skillset they have, etc...

They do it because it is the only way out.

SINs are easy to get, and for most Runners, chances are so would a marketable job - as is reinforced by the above agreement to pay them more for a day job than Running. The rest  (no options, debt, dead-end jobs) just backs up the fact that they should not be able to make much money "the honest way" - and 100/hit/day equals potentially thousands a week pretty easy, which is quite a bit more than it sounds like they're getting paid otherwise.

It's a GMs prerogative to reward day jobs more than Running, but it certainly isn't wrong to focus on advancing the story-line and dramatic exploits over oil-changes.

If you, as GM, feel that the PC's should be able to afford whatever they want, whenever they want, from the word go...that is your prerogative. But it certainly isn't WRONG to have them barely paying the rent on a crappy hole somewhere, especially to start - that should be the norm.

For the most part, no one said they should be able to afford whatever they want, especially from the get go. Keep your players 'just scraping by' for long though and watch their morale and attitude toward the game drop. Why? Because fact is; nuyen is a big part of how characters advance in SR, and if you're not giving karma in an equal dearth, then you are heavily favoring Awakened characters over Augmented - and if you are, then players are gonna be really pissed because they're not advancing significantly in any fashion.