[summers307]

OK, I've posted before about a PC who's heavily cyberlimbed, and one suggestion for challenging  him is to involve the law. Now, I know he doesn't have all the fake licenses he needs to look 100% legit, so if a cop stops him and scans his equipment he'll be red-flagged as carrying restricted hardware.

How would anyone here handle the situation? If he gets hauled into the station what would the cops do? Can they repossess his cyberlimbs? If they do what would happen to him since he'd essentially be a torso and a head (His arms have fake ID's but not the enhancements that he upgraded it with, and he forgot about his legs entirely). How much would the offense cost him monetarily, and would he gain the SINner (criminal) quality from it? I have no qualms for busting him for lack of ID, since when he upgraded his limbs to Alpha he was sitting on an amount of money that was disproportionate to the level (thought it was going to be the last campaign so the group split a million) and he upgraded his character on his spare time. I don't want to outright just take his limbs though, but I do want to put him through the wringer for not thinking through his purchases.

I would love to know your takes on this.

[Walks Through Walls]

The way I would handle it would depend on what it is that he has that is restricted or forbidden.

For minor and non-lethal/threatening mods without a license I would have him being issued a warrant to appear and tell the judge why he has them as long as his fake SIN holds up to the scrutiny. These would be issued on the spot similar to how a speeding ticket or such is now.

For more dangerous mods(or if his fake SIN fails the check) he would be hauled downtown and booked. They can put a block on the illegal mods. He would need to post bail and  then be given a court date. They could even make it part of his bail that he has to wear a tracker that is hooked in to the cyberlimbs and monitors if he turns the illegal mods back on. (of course this can be hacked, but don't get caught or  they will add on more charges)

If the fake SIN doesn't hold up then he would be issued a criminal SIN at that point. If his fake SIN holds it would be marked as belonging to a criminal at that point.

It could be a great way to introduce a police or agent type fixer/contact who will help him with his "problem" if he will do this for the contact.

Hope this helps

[RHat]

You should SERIOUSLY ask yourself why you're so set and determined to cause problems for this player.  It would be wrong of you to single him out in game just because you have an issue with the way he put his character together.

Now, given that you're dealing with second-hand cyberlimbs, if you think it would be good for the game you could have the previous owner have used them for illegal activities; something that creates a headache for the character but isn't THAT hard to get out of.  If you're going to more generally start enforcing licencing on his gear, you'll have to do that to everyone - meaning that everyone needs to worry about having licences for their augmentations, all Awakened characters need to worry about their magic registration, technomancers have to worry about something much the same...

And as a caveat, the ID rules are a little non-specific - the player might take the interpretation that his licence for the arms covers the enhancements as well.  That sort of thing must be resolved prior to it coming up in game.

[GiraffeShaman]

Depending on your group's play style, you have to find a balance between having a realistic world and keeping the game moving and fun for the players. It can really bog down the game if you are constantly rolling perception checks and checking concealability ratings.

I tend to use certain red lines that the players are wise not to cross and make them aware of these lines and that there may be consequences to crossing them. For example, if they carry an assault rifle or greater into downtown Seattle, at that point I'll begin stricly enforcing conceability rules and take appropriate action. Most of the time I'll ignore the rules in favor of keeping the game flowing. I might make a random cop stop their car or have some planned law enforcement event, but these are not the norm.

Also, one way I use to appropriately restrict hot gear and ware is making it hard to enter certain buildings, checkpoints, and areas. It's much like trying to get weapons into the casinos in Fallout New Vegas, if you've ever played that. This way the rules do come into play at times, but I'm not constantly rolling checks, and it gives an appropriate bonus to characters skilled at appearing normal.

You do have to have plans for getting characters involved who are stuck outside checkpoints though, or have alternate, yet harder ways they can get in. I've had times where our street sam with the cyberskull was stuck waiting for the team outside, and while it was appropriate to the situation, it's never good to make a player just sit there not having fun.

As for punishments from the legal system. It's usually best to do things like fines, lawyer fees, and favors now owed to npcs who help the jailed PC out of a jam. While the written rules are harsh on contraband, perfectly enforcing them can easily lead to the equivalent of a TPK. They're best used as a threat, unless you really want to destroy a player character or runner team. It's a dark world, and awful things like Bunraku parlors exist, but it's generally not healthy for a campaign to put your player characters into one as the help.

[Glyph]

Unless the character has obvious cyberlimbs, and doesn't wear concealing clothing over them, he shouldn't be stopped randomly, other than the occasional racist who wants to hassle the troll, or overzealous cop in an AAA zone.  A bigger problem will be getting past cyberscanners - this character concept needs to really buddy up with the hacker.

Before you hassle the character out of the blue, let the group know that you might start enforcing things like fake paperwork and keeping obvious weaponry concealed - then give then a chance to fix some of the gaps in their licenses, etc.  They have been walking around and not getting any heat for it so far, and their characters, if not the players, would know the normal, everyday ABC's of life in the shadows.  Take character knowledge into consideration, especially if you are changing how your very game universe works suddenly.

Also remember that while their may be some police state and surveillance state qualities to Shadowrun, their is also a lawless wild west flavor to the game.  There is a glut of data out there, this data is distrusted because it is very easy to fake, and this data is also balkanized among covertly battling corporations that don't like to share.  Getting stopped by the cops can often be resolved by a bribe, or doing a run/favor for the arresting government/corporation, or having a hacker do his thing.

There are all kinds of ways to challenge players, and dealing with heat for running too flashy is one of those ways.  I by no means advocate giving them a free pass.  But let them know what you are changing, and give them some OOC advice on things their character would know.  If they ignore some basic aspects of the game world (walking down the street in an AAA zone with their Panther Cannon, etc.), then lower the boom.  Try to keep even the trouble the FUN kind, though.  A corrupt cop asking for a bribe, a company man asking for a favor, having to live in a safehouse in the Barrens while the heat dies down - good.  But having someone sitting in a prison cell twiddling his thumbs, or having most of his cyberware deactivated, kind of drags the game to a halt.  Find a way to resolve it fairly quickly, if not painlessly (a shark lawyer demands a big fee to get him off on a loophole, he skips bail but has to lie low while getting a new fake SIN, etc.).

[summers307]

I guess I should have started this post with one thing I had on my mind but didn't write down: I"m not going to use this angle any time SOON. I was simply wondering if anyone else had put thought into how the legal system worked for people getting caught with illegal inventory would be prosecuted and/or what would reactions be if the item in question is the persons own arm.

I agree with the point that I should let the characters (all of them, even though the other guy who has restricted items has so fewer) make sure if they need fake ID's and if they are covered properly. The reason why I was debating that was simply because he did by fake ID's already, so he was aware of a possible circumstance but missed a spot. This doesn't mean that I'm going to have a cop question him every block he walks, I wanted to be prepared if I wanted to throw that curve ball.

RHat: Yes, I know from my posts that it seems like I single this player out constantly. You know what? I do single him out. Fact is, this player is the reason I came to this forum in the first place. I have to vent in order for what I'm saying to reflect properly. This player is an inconsiderate asshole to put it nicely. He's a power player, a min-maxer, AND an arrogant sonoffabitch when it comes to role playing. I did Pathfinder before Shadowrunner, and I was the DM then. I put between 5-10 hours every week to get a campaign ready for this group, and every Saturday rolled around and my campaign villeins were one-shotted more often then not. I had him scrap characters because they were unbalanced and make new ones. He did, presented them in a very lack luster fashion, and then turns out it's a god damn one trick pony with unrealistic power. Whats that? Because you took one level in Druid and became a cavalier and you crafted your own magical items and you can charge a fucking WALL OF FORCE and kill it? That's ok, I didn't want to use that plot hook anyway.

And then I thought I'd catch a break, Shadowrunner. An RPG that no one at the table has played yet? We're all on equal grounds? Sure I'll be the GM, I just hope I can remember enough of the rules to make it work. We'll just need to help each other out! Well it turns out that once a min-maxer, always a min-maxer. While I was still trying to learn how guns work and that there are no actual classes in this game, this player had a copy of the rule book two weeks prior and discovered that all you need is to max out your money and buy immortality. I was still too new to this game to know how to over come 28 armor on a "level one" PC, so he blatantly strolled into chaos, stood there and laughed, and all I could do was keep shooting when I knew how it was going to end. Spend rest of night with him basking in his glory.

Note: I found out later that the reason why he was such a power gamer in pathfinder is because he went onto forum sites and took builds from other people to use against me. That's why I came to the forums, and it has worked wonders.

Have I learned new ways to deal with him? Yes. Have I evolved as a GM? I'd like to think so. If it wasn't for this site, I would not have learned ways to both deal with him and add a touch of mortality for the rest of the group.

So why would I keep looking for reasons to mess with him? Two; firstly, I am GENUINELY curious about Shadowrunner legalities. But mainly, after my "God damn pirates!" campaign, the culminated work of 20 hours over two weeks to plan (four locations, gang battles, cyber combat, magical duels, flash bang traps, coast guard facility infiltration, over sea speed boat chase, etc), he has the gaul to say AND I FUCKING QUOTE, "I'm gonna go ahead and say that the reason this campaign went so well was because of me. If I wasn't so hard to deal with you wouldn't have to improve".

So none of that session is really my triumph? It's the case of the player who doesn't think beyond his own character. I'm the GM because no one else will take the mantle, but that doesn't mean I don't want to have fun with this. Why do I group with this guy still even if he irritates me? This is simple, we're all military and one of the people in the group is both of our friends. If I refuse to play anymore, I'm sad AND alone and no one who plays this game wants to truly be without a gaming group.



TLDR: This player is a power playing asshole who's inconsiderate to the effort I put into the campaigns who I am in return forced to keep seeing on a weekly basis.

[summers307]

Oh yeah, got carried away and forgot to add:


Thanks for the info and ideas, it will be a big help in the future!

[Glyph]

One thing to keep in mind with fake licenses is that they may not always quite match the actual weapon or augmentation - this can get the character off the hook for some blatantly illegal things, but may result in more trouble if the character is actually arrested and they go over his 'ware and gear with a fine-toothed comb.  Examples would be plastic bone lacing registered as bone density augmentation, a gun registration that doesn't mention a full auto-fire modification that has been done to it, and so on.

Someone who is a troll will occasionally face racism, and someone who is obviously cybered will occasionally attract undue attention from it.  He may not be blatantly carrying assault weapons, but the character should still occasionally be hassled.  The trouble with this weapon in the GM's arsenal is that it is good for creating small difficulties, but can suck the fun out of the game if used too much.  So I would save this option for creating minor problems for the character, with magic and social skills as your big guns against the character.

[Michael Chandra]

Carrying unlicensed Class-B Cyberware (Class-C is cyberweapons, B is the bodypart stuff) carried a 20k nuyen fine in First Edition. And unless you were in the slums, it was a High chance of being stopped if they saw you walking around with cyberlimbs. Now in 4e it's become more common, but I imagine having multiple limbs still results in that High chance at any decent part of town, and the fine is at the least 10k if your permit doesn't check out. If they think they can safely take him in at that point, a bribe would easily have to be a few thousand.

And of course that fine is only if they don't bust his fake SIN. If they do... Ohboy.

[Michael Chandra]

A4BG: Are you suggesting the GM is lying about him constantly trying to provide the players with a fair challenge and being ridiculed for putting futile effort in due to minmaxed characters tossed his way? Because unless you're stating he's lying and he was the one that started the arms race, I can't find any proof of him being the cause of this player's behavior.

[I_V_Saur]

Okay, diverting away from the topic of player vs GM, before Jack takes a swing with his BanHammer. (It's his issue, he doesn't need a lecture about his own decisions.)

If the party is currently operating out of one city, it's easy to state that ID laws and regulation are lax there, and then to have a few lead-in Runs that eventually force them to move to another destination, for money, or safety. Somewhere like Manhattan would be brilliant, but, really, anywhere else can do perfectly. The important thing is that they have to adjust to security procedures, and a change of location believably integrates things.

[Michael Chandra]

So what you really meant to send as message is "Have you tried looking at it from your player's perspective? Perhaps have a private chat with him, see why he does what he does, why he insists on scoring minmax builds to whallop over everything you put together? Maybe he's doing it nowadays because he feels like he's part of an arms race."

[summers307]

IV: Actually, I've sent the group all over the place so reacurring problems in Seattle hasn't been an issue yet. I'm kind of laughing at the fact that the main city this world is based in and they've only had one job in it out of four sessions.

Michael chandra: Thanks for seeing things my POV, it's helpful.

All4Big: I've typed up to a dozen responses as to what I should say. I'm new to forums, and since you're clearly a prime runner, I'll just keep this simple. If you're not gonna help or don't like what I say, I'm sure there's another post out there that could use your expertise. If all I do is piss you off, then stay outta my threads.

[ZeConster]

So what you really meant to send as message is "Have you tried looking at it from your player's perspective? Perhaps have a private chat with him, see why he does what he does, why he insists on scoring minmax builds to whallop over everything you put together? Maybe he's doing it nowadays because he feels like he's part of an arms race."

I'm just not going to blindly believe what he says. If he really wants useful and good advice, then he should get the player to make an account here and give his side. Otherwise, I will assume that he is intentionally trying to conceal things to make the other look like "the bad guy".

If your response to someone giving a detailed description of a minmaxing player with a bad personality and even calling them "a power playing asshole who's inconsiderate to the effort I put into the campaigns" is "get off your danged high horse" and blindly believing the player must be an innocent victim in the matter, you have serious issues.

summers307: I spotted a blog post by a GM (one I admittedly wouldn't want to play with) a while back, detailing how explosives are an excellent way to kill off characters you don't like. If confronting him about his attitude or giving him in-game consequences for his behavior doesn't work, you could always blow up the character's home when he opens the front door (does he check for explosives? line the entire wall with them), then explain that it was surprisingly easy for the brother of that guy he killed 2 sessions ago to find the home of the "chromed up like heck" guy, and perhaps even give him a detailed description of the "chunky salsa" mechanic when he complains that he shouldn't be this easy to kill.

[Angelone]

Cows falling from space. Don't even give a roll, the character just dies. It saves time and shows you can beat whatever concept he can come up with. 

Edit- Alternately make him GM he apparently knows the rules well enough.