[RHat]

I'm really not sure why people think social modifiers means "all dice pool modifiers to social tests" - there is a rather different definition implicit in that section of the rules, and ruling in that fashion makes other, more expensive things to boost social skills far less valuable.

Acutally, this seems like a good subject for a Rules thread.

[All4BigGuns]

It already has been several times. It always gets locked.

[Sichr]

It already has been several times. It always gets locked.

I wonder why...

[Aryeonos]

I read the article on it looking for some direction as to whether it was a situational modifier, or a regular gear modifier and I couldn't make heads or tails of it. If it's a gear modifier you need some skill to properly utilize it, and that's how I used it in my example, if it's a social modifier then it's just additive. Though I don't recall the cap on situational modifiers, if there is one.

[Sichr]

Please. I've promissed to play nice
only one thing: you are able to get 4 dices on hacking being illiterate idiot with logic 1, if you have top non restricted commlink with exploit 5. With hacking 1 you have 7 dices. You realy dont need any skill to be able to read emo interface. It tells you all you need to know. I hate it, but it is raw, and the sw makes sense, has the reason d'etre. All I can do is to accept it and hope new edition removes the flaws on it. Sad.

[Aryeonos]

Well, that entire discrepancy did give birth to Mungo. That and the Mel Brooks film, got to see that in theatres, was quite exciting.

There are rules to use attributes as well though, but I don't think I've ever used a hacker with a logic lower than 4, even if it didn't come into play directly in hacking.

[RHat]

There are optional rules for that, though they do cause...  Problems.

[Aryeonos]

I seem to recall making up my mind about them a very long time ago, though I haven't read the specific rule in a while.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Well I'll be damned...  I thought karmagen was the same as BP gen except for the costs and stuff.  But there it is at the bottom of page 42, special attributes are included in the 50% karma plus twice your racial bp cost.

We're using racial cost=BP cost, not 2*BP. The rest is the same, though. I don't want too many house rules which might confuse people.

It's not a house rule, and it's not about the cost of the metatype.  The rules for karmagen say that your attributes, including your special attributes, are limited to half of the karma plus twice the bp cost of the metatype.  If you're an ork, your attribute limit for a 750 point build is 375+(20 * 2)=415. 

I'll hopefully have Pakka posted during lunch, but it might have to be after school.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

How the hell do I spend 1 karma?  I have max money, using it all so i can't lower it, and everything else costs 2+...

[All4BigGuns]

You can save up to--I think--5 karma through the creation process.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Ok, I'm posting my new ork mage, Pakka.  I'd like to get your opinions on which character to play, assuming Empathy software is allowed.

Pakka is a slightly better mage and has much higher survivability in combat.  He has no other notable skills... unless you count 11s in the electronics skill group.  His personality is beyond bad.
Baron is slight worse as a mage, but he's a great face and he has decent combat skills outside of magic, too.  With skillwires, he has quite a bit of potential variety.

[Mirikon]

For the Charisma and skill needed to use the empathy software, the restricted gear for the link, and money for the link, the program, and peripherals necessary to run it, it's only 76 Karma

Compare to an adept, to get the +5 from Kinesics and Improved ability, who does not need to improve his charisma, but needs influence at 4 for the ability bonus, it costs 110 Karma

All right, full stop. Right here is where your problem is. That's a false dichotomy. Why? Because the Adept can still add on the empathy software on top of that. So this comparison, and all the math that follows from it is meaningless.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

You guys have a really inconvenient sleeping schedule...     Maybe tomorrow I can find out if you'd prefer a super face/mage, or a full mage more dedicated to combat.

Here's the character, in case you don't want to download the zip.

Stats
== Info ==
Street Name: Pakka Chops
Name: Thomas Parker the third
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 5
Karma: 1
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 1
Public Awareness: 0
Ork Male Age 18
Height 6'4" Weight 280 lbs.
Composure: 7
Judge Intentions: 6
Lift/Carry: 8 (45 kg/30 kg)
Memory: 12
Nuyen: 580

== Attributes ==
BOD: 5
AGI: 1
REA: 1
STR: 3
CHA: 2
INT: 4
LOG: 5 (7)
WIL: 5
EDG: 3
MAG: 4

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   5.305
Initiative:                5
IP:                        1
Astral Initiative:         8
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         5
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     12
Stun Damage Track:         11


Skills
== Active Skills > 0 Ranks ==
Arcana                     : 1                      Pool: 11
Assensing                  : 4                      Pool: 11
Banishing                  : 4                      Pool: 12
Binding                    : 4                      Pool: 14
Computer                   : 1                      Pool: 11
Counterspelling            : 4 [Combat]             Pool: 8 (10)
Data Search                : 1                      Pool: 11
Dodge                      : 4 [Melee Combat]       Pool: 5 (7)
Etiquette                  : 2                      Pool: 4
First Aid                  : 1                      Pool: 11
Hardware                   : 1                      Pool: 11
Perception                 : 1                      Pool: 8(11 Visual and Audio)
Software                   : 1                      Pool: 11
Spellcasting               : 6 [Manipulation]             Pool: 14 (16) (13 for Combat spells)
Summoning                  : 4                      Pool: 12
Survival                   : 2                      Pool: 7

== Knowledge Skills ==
Madam Mozimbo's Magical Manor: SSSSSS : 11                      Pool: 21
- Linked skills: Arcana, Assensing, Astral Combat, Banishing, Binding, Counterspelling, Enchanting, Spellcasting, Summoning
Ork Underground Military Training(Mage/Mechanic) : 10                      Pool: 20
- Linked skills: Armorer, Automotive Mechanics, Automatics, Chemistry, Climbing, Demolitions, Disguise, Dodge, Escape Artist, Etiquette, First Aid, Gymnastics, Industrial Mechanic, Infiltration, Medicine, Nautical Mechanic, Navigation, Palming, Perception, Pilot Ground Craft, Pistols, Running, Shadowing, Survival, Throwing Weapons, Tracking, Unarmed

== Language Skills ==
English                    : N                      Pool: 0 (2)
Or'zet                     : 6 [Lingo]              Pool: 13 (15)


Contacts/Qualities/Spells
== Contacts ==
Sgt. Slate "Muffins" Baker, Ork Underground (3 (7), 6)

== Qualities ==
Erased (1 Week)
Extravagant Eyes (Silver irises)
Impaired Attribute (AGI)
Impaired Attribute (REA)
Impaired Attribute (CHA)
In Debt (10,000¥)
Low-Light Vision
Magician
Mentor Spirit (Snake) (+2 Detection, +2 Binding, -1 Combat)
Restricted Gear (Rating 2)
Scorched

== Spells ==
(Tradition: Chaos Magic, Resist Drain with WIL + LOG (12))
Disappear - Multi-Sense Physical Concealing Illusion - Hides you from sight/hearing/smell (Self-only) DV: (F÷2)-1 <-- Custom Spell
Fashion                    DV: (F÷2)
Fix                        DV: (F÷2)+1
Heal                       DV: (Damage Value)-2
Increase Reflexes          DV: (F÷2)+2
Levitate                   DV: (F÷2)+1
Mana Window, Extended Range DV: (F÷2)+2
Physical Mask              DV: (F÷2)+1
Powerbolt                  DV: (F÷2)+1
Shapechange                DV: (F÷2)+2
Stunball                   DV: (F÷2)+1
Stunbolt                   DV: (F÷2)-1


Implants/Armor/Weapons/Gear
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Cerebral Booster Rating 3
Datajack
Eye Light System
Obvious Foot (Left)
   +Nanohive Rating 2
   +Armor Rating 1
   +Customized Body Rating 9

== Armor ==
Ballistic Mask            2/1
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
   +Insulation 3
   +Nonconductivity 6
Helmet                    1/2
   +Biomonitor
SecureTech PPP Armor (Ensemble with Helmet)2/6
   +Chemical Protection 6
   +Insulation 3
Taser Shield              2/6
Vashon Island: Steampunk Corset/Vest (Ensemble)13/10
   +Carbon-Boron
   +Delta-Amyloid
   +Fire Resistance 6
   +Kevlar-Threading
   +YNT SoftWeave
Zoé: Moonsilver Scarf     1/0

== Weapons ==
Ares Alpha
   +Smartgun System
   Pool: 0   DV: 6P   AP: -1   RC: 2
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 0   DV: 2S   AP: -   RC: 0

== Commlink ==
Sony Emperor (1, 2, 2, 3)
   +Renraku Ichi
   +Biometric Reader
   +Subvocal Microphone
   +Hardening Rating 6
   +Analyze Rating 2 [Copy Protection 2, Ergonomic (Hacked), Registration]
   +Browse Rating 2 [Copy Protection 2, Registration]
   +Command Rating 2 [Copy Protection 2, Registration]
   +Edit Rating 2 [Copy Protection 2, Registration]
   +Encrypt Rating 2 [Copy Protection 2, Ergonomic, Registration]

== Gear ==
Backpack
Combat Fetish
Contact Lenses Rating 3
   +Image Link
   +Flare Compensation
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
Detection Fetish
Earbuds Rating 3
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 3
   +Select Sound Filter Rating 3
Fake SIN (William Zapka) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Restricted Weapons - Security Contractor) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Magical Implements - Security Contractor) Rating 4
Fake SIN (Fredrick Mercury) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Restricted Weapons - Security Consultant) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Magical Implements - Security Contractor) Rating 4
Gas Mask
Goggles Rating 6
   +Ultrasound
   +Vision Magnification
Healing Fetish
Illusion Fetish
Latex Face Mask
Manipulation Fetish
Medkit Rating 6
Neural Amplifiers, Limbic Rating 3
Neural Amplifiers, Neocortical Rating 3
OXSYS Artificial Gill
Power Focus (Bonded Foci) Rating 4
Stimulant Patch Rating 6
Survival Kit
Tranq Patch Rating 6 x4
Trauma Patch


Details
== Description ==
Pakka is a big one. With his silvery eyes and long, greasy brown hair, unpleasant face, and general air of contempt and mocking, he is about as likeable as a grenade... meaning only when useful. He constantly wears a mish-mash of clothing, layers upon layers. The general look to it is usually steampunk-ish, but this changes from time to time or when needed.

== Background ==
Thomas Parker, III was born to a lovely pair of humans in the Renraku Arcology in 2056. The couple were immediately disgusted and ashamed of their ork baby, so they took a quick trip to the barrens to abandon it. Lucky for him, a few orks were watching from the shadows as the norms came and went. They took him in and raised him as their own in the Ork Underground. His life there wasn't easy, but that never stopped him. He was driven to excel...in whatever ways he was actually able to do. He quickly discovered that not all children were the same as him. Ork or not, they were all quicker and faster than him. He took to pacing himself and thinking deeply, which proved a blessing when his gift Awakened. With his keenly analytical mind(exceptional for an ork or any other race, for that matter), he applied himself wholeheartedly to delving the depths of the magical world. His adoptive parents sent him to the infamous MMMM:SSSSSS(Madam Mozimbo's Magical Manor: Super Secret Sorcerous Schoolhouse for the Self-Sufficient), where he received extensive training with his gift. Although physically slow, his rapacious mind quickly saw him graduating from her institution and moving on to bigger and better things. Bigger and better things turned out to be the OUSF(Ork Underground Security Force), the highest-tier military group in the Ork Underground. Recognizing his talents, the leaders were nevertheless skeptical about his participation, due to his weakness in regards to physical abilities. While not exactly excelling at the training, he managed to pass(barely) the basic training through monumental amounts of sheer will, but it wasn't meant to be. On his first call to duty, his slowness cost 4 men their lives. He was summarily discharged from service, but the higher-ups knew it wasn't truly his fault. Pakka has now left the Ork Underground to see the outside world.

== Concept ==
Mage

== Notes ==
He keeps in touch with the Ork Underground, and they treat him as family.

[Aryeonos]

Which makes empathy software even more broken, you do realize that? The exercise was in cost comparisons for near similar benefit. It'd be only 16 karma to add in the commlink, restricted gear, and money for the software, link, and peripherals, to add it on to the adept build.

Why bring it up anyway, you're not going to change how you see it, it's just wasted thread space.