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Mages and Full-Body Armor

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RHat

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« Reply #30 on: <05-05-13/0022:58> »
Just a bit of a note. I'm not saying that people would be immune to magic simply by wearing full-body armor. I'm saying that they wouldn't be able to be targetted for things such as Manabolt or Control Thougths/Emotions and such. Targetting the armor would still be entirely feasible with Firebolt/Ball or such spells, as they make actual physical effects which could mess someone up just as well as the normal versions would.

You've been perfectly clear on that, but you're mistaken.
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Ninja137

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« Reply #31 on: <05-05-13/0044:20> »
Just a bit of a note. I'm not saying that people would be immune to magic simply by wearing full-body armor. I'm saying that they wouldn't be able to be targetted for things such as Manabolt or Control Thougths/Emotions and such. Targetting the armor would still be entirely feasible with Firebolt/Ball or such spells, as they make actual physical effects which could mess someone up just as well as the normal versions would.

You've been perfectly clear on that, but you're mistaken.
By RAW, yeah. By RAI, fluff, common sense, and logic? Not quite so much.

Mantis

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« Reply #32 on: <05-05-13/0053:02> »
By and RAI and fluff you are mistaken. Shadowrun has never allowed full body armour or mil spec armour to prevent you from being targeted by spells. The fluff justification is that your aura extends a few centimetres beyond you and thus allows you to be targeted by the spells. A car or building would hide this aura and you would have to be pressed right up against your paper wall to be targeted. Likely even the framing for said wall would be enough to prevent targeting as it would move you far enough from the wall that your aura wouldn't leak.
It has nothing to do with what you can see in astral, as you referenced. Astral targeting and sight have nothing to do with spellcasting on the physical plane. Remember, spells like Powerbolt are also Direct but can not be used on the astral. Don't mix up the whole astral space and how things look there with how you target on the physical. If you see it, you can hit it.

RHat

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« Reply #33 on: <05-05-13/0057:42> »
Just a bit of a note. I'm not saying that people would be immune to magic simply by wearing full-body armor. I'm saying that they wouldn't be able to be targetted for things such as Manabolt or Control Thougths/Emotions and such. Targetting the armor would still be entirely feasible with Firebolt/Ball or such spells, as they make actual physical effects which could mess someone up just as well as the normal versions would.

You've been perfectly clear on that, but you're mistaken.
By RAW, yeah. By RAI, fluff, common sense, and logic? Not quite so much.

...  Wow.

It is not intended that full body armour makes you immune to direct spells.  What in the hell would make you think that was the case?

Go ahead and show me fluff indicating that worn armour has the same impact on spell targeting as a wall.

And no, by logic you remain mistaken.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #34 on: <05-05-13/2016:41> »
I'm gonna find it extremely ironic for a bit that someone who ignored the FAQ on 2 occasions goes and (mis)quotes the FAQ on a third occasion to try to prove a point.

Anyway, I'm siding with the reasonable explanation that your auro isn't skindeep but goes a bit beyond that, so is targettable outside what you're wearing. However, I'm not wearing a car, there's air inbetween me and the frame. The only exception would be a frail 1/2-inch thick-plated mini with Detective Tosh Athack stuck in it.
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Mantis

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« Reply #35 on: <05-05-13/2021:00> »
Poor Tosh. Can't get no respect. Maybe if he didn't always have his hand out...

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #36 on: <05-05-13/2022:26> »
He lets you know he doesn't take offense of that comment if you donate 500 nuyen to the Police Officer Orphan fund.
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CanRay

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« Reply #37 on: <05-05-13/2153:09> »
Poor Tosh. Can't get no respect. Maybe if he didn't always have his hand out...
My group HATED Tosh...

Maybe it was the way I played him.  ;D
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #38 on: <05-06-13/0535:46> »
He threw my brother's character over his shoulder once and brought her with him to have a conversation. He took him as contact from the start, and she kept making jokes to his face about whether he was still eating enough babies and goats to keep up that size of his.
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Shaidar

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« Reply #39 on: <05-09-13/0505:02> »
As to Cyborgs and targeting:

Quote from: Augmentation pg. 164
Targeting and Magic
  Cyborgs are diffcult to target with magic. The only living part of a jarhead—the brain—is encapsulated within the CCU which itself is enclosed within the drone body, where it is effectively safe from spell targeting. Instead, the drone body itself must be targeted by spells. Only in the event that the drone’s outer casing/armor is breached or removed would the CCU/brain become vulnerable to magical targeting—though hitting might still require a called shot.
  This means that spells cast against a cyborg’s drone body must overcome Object Resistance (threshold 4+).  is also means that the cyborg—or rather, its body—does not make resistance rolls against Physical spells. Mana spells are simply unable to lock on to the cyborg’s living component and are useless as a result.
  When viewed from the astral, the living presence within a cyborg cannot be seen through the opaque drone body (unless the astral form sticks its head through the drone body’s shadow and into the brain’s encapsulated aura). Cyborgs do not boast the vibrant aura indicative of a living being and instead appear as drab as any other drone to assensing. Assensing may reveal information as it does with any other non-living object, but it will provide no insight into the brain controlling the drone. Unsurprisingly, the Awakened typically  find cyborgs disquieting.

Most tagets believe that their clothes ae thiers enough to be part of them.  CONSENCUS of the people living in the 6th World, who live with REAL magic, believe they can be tageted through their clothing and amor.

It may not make sense to you, Ninja, but it makes sense to the people living in the 6th world.  We know this because the RULES tell us, the playes, that it works that way.  This is so fundementally part of SR that taking it out would create a wide gulf between your table and the SR everyone else wants to play.

Anarkitty

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« Reply #40 on: <05-09-13/1410:32> »
I'm not talking about the RAW of the issue at this point, and as I already said I am fully aware of that fact. I'm talking about what it is that could potentially give a legitimate reason for WHY it works as it does, and RHat does a fairly good job of that. Personal perception plays a rather large role in magic, and the mages perception that the armor is a part of you makes a good amount of sense. But if that is the case, I propose this situation.

You have a Mage, specializing in medicine, augmentations, and all sort of other medical/'ware related topics. He helps to turn someone into a Cyborg, and hooks their brain up to a Steel Lynx. To that cyborg, that Drone is his body for the moment. It is a part of him, and he moves it with his thoughts. To the mage, the same applies. He looks at it like a Street Sam using a piece of 'ware. He fully believes that the drone is effectively a part of that person.

Can he target Cyborg-Brain piloting the drone, housed in the drone, and which he believes to be a part of the drone, with a Manabolt?

I think this might be part of the confusion here.  It has nothing to do with what the Mage perceives as part of the target's body, it is what the Target perceives as part of their body.  Not on a conscious level, but what their spirit/soul/aura/whatever decides is a part of them.  Presumably this is partially influenced by their own perceptions, and partially by the abstract rules of magic.
Extrapolating from the rules, clothing and armor (as previously stated by others) is perceived by the wearer's soul as part of them, since it moves with them, and they are wearing it the same as extremely heavy clothes, so their aura includes it.
A Cyborg still sees their drone body as a vehicle, it isn't wired into their old nerves, it is controlled by rigging, so it doesn't share their aura, the same as a car, so their spirit (or what's left of it) doesn't extend their aura to include it the way it would a cyberlimb.

That said, as the armor gets more and more bulky and gets more and more powered by servos and myomer wire bundles, it moves more and more away from armor and more towards an anthroform vehicle.  At some point it stops being armor and starts being a vehicle.  That point may even vary from wearer/pilot to wearer/pilot, depending on how they subconsciously define armor vs vehicle.

It is a question about where that line is drawn.  You put it somewhere between clothes and heavy armor, but if MilSpec armor blocks line of sight for the purposes of magic, what about an Eve SecondSkin bodysuit with a full enclosed hood and mask?  It isn't as thick, but it still blocks line of sight. 
Where is the line?  How thick does it need to be to block your aura?  You claim that it is like being unable to see a light bulb behind three inches of steel, but what about a light bulb behind a 1mm thick blackout curtain.  You still can't see the light.  Does it even have to be armor?  What about opaque latex?
And at that point, why wouldn't everyone who even thinks for a moment that they might encounter hostile mages wear a bodysuit with a hood under their clothes/armor/etc all the time?


Also:
Most tagets believe that their clothes ae thiers enough to be part of them.  CONSENCUS of the people living in the 6th World, who live with REAL magic, believe they can be tageted through their clothing and amor.

It may not make sense to you, Ninja, but it makes sense to the people living in the 6th world.  We know this because the RULES tell us, the playes, that it works that way.  This is so fundementally part of SR that taking it out would create a wide gulf between your table and the SR everyone else wants to play.

Exactly.
You are starting down a slippery slope when you start throwing out rules just because you don't like the explanation of why it works that way, or can't think of a good explanation for it to work that way.  It's magic.  Even in-world no one completely understands it (or if they do, they aren't talking to Runners about it).