[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Because it isn't cost-effective.  The only reason PABs got used were to encourage loyalty in someone vital or valuable, or to muddle the memories of a critical witness in order to cover up some atrocity that would cost a corp millions or more.  When you're talking about what the 'virus' is doing, it's hugely time-intensive, erratic, and (as always) open to potential and radical failure.  It's a personal-job-only event - where it's 'damn the cost, full steam ahead', you don't care if you blow up so long as you either a) succeed or b) take the guy down with you.

If you're being tortured, exposed to agonizing pain day in and day out for months or years on end - what wouldn't you do to escape and strike back at those you saw as your tormentors?

[Longshot23]

A couple of things just occurred to me.

1. Whatever nanoware is required for the secondary entity to invade the host, would it be required after that point - after getting inside? If not, targeting the nanoware with whatever 'cleansing' measure is available may not accomplish a fragging thing, other than the demise of the nanoware.

2. Endgame: there apparently is one, and revenge on the former imprisoning corp may not be it.

3. Quote: "being tortured, exposed to agonizing pain day in and day out for months or years on end" - such as being taken to an apparently miniscule-mana environment like Mars?

[psycho835]

A couple of things just occurred to me.

1. Whatever nanoware is required for the secondary entity to invade the host, would it be required after that point - after getting inside? If not, targeting the nanoware with whatever 'cleansing' measure is available may not accomplish a fragging thing, other than the demise of the nanoware.

2. Endgame: there apparently is one, and revenge on the former imprisoning corp may not be it.

3. Quote: "being tortured, exposed to agonizing pain day in and day out for months or years on end" - such as being taken to an apparently miniscule-mana environment like Mars?

Drek, you're right. SEARCH demanded from Fastjack to get nanohive. And it kept getting stronger even without it. Soooo... purging body of nanoware will probably only slow the virus down. At best.

As for the magic theory - I really hope that Sybil isn't awakened. Not because it would be scary or more difficult to deal with, but because it would be anticlimatic. Magical threat in the matrix? Don't we have a whole host of better, more appropriate enemies originating in digital world? Dissonance? AIs? E-Ghosts? Corporate experiments? Slamm-0's vandalism?

[Sichr]

I'd call this more of a poison/disease vector - once nanotech is introduced to the body, a physical spell targeted to them isn't going to quite work, because they're inside the body.  It'd be like creating a 'destroy cyanide' spell - works great on cyanide outside, but you need 'cure poison' once it's been introduced.

Note, by the way, that this 'overwriting' technology really isn't anything new for Shadowrun; it's been around since the early 2050's, having been introduced in Shadowbeat, which was, IIRC, for 1e.  This is just the first time it's been pushed in this direction, with the implantation of a nanotech hive 'assisting' in the completion of a long-term overwrite.

Not sure if you are meaning that, but saying nanites cannot be removed from body with the use of magic would be very forced limitation, give what else is possible to accomplish with magic. If you are able to cast the spell able to remove HMHVV vrom your system, It should be possible to remove objects from inside your body that are not in balance with your aura or part of it. Something like "Purrify". I dont say it would be easy and once the formula is created, it would be expensive as hell. My bets would be EVO or Wuxing.

[Longshot23]

As for the magic theory - I really hope that Sybil isn't awakened. Not because it would be scary or more difficult to deal with, but because it would be anticlimatic. Magical threat in the matrix? Don't we have a whole host of better, more appropriate enemies originating in digital world? Dissonance? AIs? E-Ghosts? Corporate experiments? Slamm-0's vandalism?

Actually I agree.  Crossing magic with matrix seems like a bad goofy idea.  It seemed freaky that technomancers seemed to have progress and identity options that paralleled those available to mages & shamans, but it also made a strange kind of sense.

[Reaver]

A couple of things just occurred to me.

1. Whatever nanoware is required for the secondary entity to invade the host, would it be required after that point - after getting inside? If not, targeting the nanoware with whatever 'cleansing' measure is available may not accomplish a fragging thing, other than the demise of the nanoware.

2. Endgame: there apparently is one, and revenge on the former imprisoning corp may not be it.

3. Quote: "being tortured, exposed to agonizing pain day in and day out for months or years on end" - such as being taken to an apparently miniscule-mana environment like Mars?

Drek, you're right. SEARCH demanded from Fastjack to get nanohive. And it kept getting stronger even without it. Soooo... purging body of nanoware will probably only slow the virus down. At best.

As for the magic theory - I really hope that Sybil isn't awakened. Not because it would be scary or more difficult to deal with, but because it would be anticlimatic. Magical threat in the matrix? Don't we have a whole host of better, more appropriate enemies originating in digital world? Dissonance? AIs? E-Ghosts? Corporate experiments? Slamm-0's vandalism?

I doubt very much that whatever Sybil turns out to be, that it will be awakened. I am thinking more and more that Sybil is like a rigger. And we are it's drones, and entities like SEARCH are it's agents....



And just like a drone. if the person is awakened, Then Sybil can use the magic of the human "drone".... (just like if a drone has a missile launcher....)


Hmmmm Revenge of the pilot drone-program-turned-AI?   "I will rid the world of idiot pilots who crash drones like me a hundred times! Then, the assholes to shoot drones!! And Dwarves!!!! Kill the dwarves!! Leaving that facial pubic hair everywhere...."

[Namikaze]

Wyrm, I read through your first two posts on the boards - the only ones on pages 1 or 2.  What you did was dismiss everyone else's theories in favor of your own.  Assuming that whatever is going on is based on PAB technology, it would be capable of being reversed or "cured."  I'm not saying that PAB-based tech couldn't be behind this, but why does that automatically discount dragons as a source of said tech?  When you've got three great dragons sitting on the boards of megacorps, they have a claw or two in almost everything.

So to be clear - you think that this is just a case of PAB gone wrong, and that there isn't any kind of bigger power behind all of this?

[psycho835]

A couple of things just occurred to me.

1. Whatever nanoware is required for the secondary entity to invade the host, would it be required after that point - after getting inside? If not, targeting the nanoware with whatever 'cleansing' measure is available may not accomplish a fragging thing, other than the demise of the nanoware.

2. Endgame: there apparently is one, and revenge on the former imprisoning corp may not be it.

3. Quote: "being tortured, exposed to agonizing pain day in and day out for months or years on end" - such as being taken to an apparently miniscule-mana environment like Mars?

Drek, you're right. SEARCH demanded from Fastjack to get nanohive. And it kept getting stronger even without it. Soooo... purging body of nanoware will probably only slow the virus down. At best.

As for the magic theory - I really hope that Sybil isn't awakened. Not because it would be scary or more difficult to deal with, but because it would be anticlimatic. Magical threat in the matrix? Don't we have a whole host of better, more appropriate enemies originating in digital world? Dissonance? AIs? E-Ghosts? Corporate experiments? Slamm-0's vandalism?

I doubt very much that whatever Sybil turns out to be, that it will be awakened. I am thinking more and more that Sybil is like a rigger. And we are it's drones, and entities like SEARCH are it's agents....



And just like a drone. if the person is awakened, Then Sybil can use the magic of the human "drone".... (just like if a drone has a missile launcher....)


Hmmmm Revenge of the pilot drone-program-turned-AI?   "I will rid the world of idiot pilots who crash drones like me a hundred times! Then, the assholes to shoot drones!! And Dwarves!!!! Kill the dwarves!! Leaving that facial pubic hair everywhere...."

Oh, drek, one of my chars has a "demolish drone" spell. Which he used frequently.

[RHat]

Can I just say PAB based stuff doesn't seem near weird enough to be this?

[Reaver]

Can I just say PAB based stuff doesn't seem near weird enough to be this?

could have been the foundation of the idea for whatever Sybil is... that is for sure.

[Namikaze]

Oh certainly, PAB-based technology sure makes sense to have something to do with this.  But there's nothing to indicate that that's where this begins and ends.  I have little doubt that if PAB is what is (relatively) publicly known about, there's something even worse that a corp or private entity has been working on.  The weird thing to me is that there seems to be a sort of focus to the blackouts.  Like the blackout doesn't happen and the person just decides to go have a cup of coffee and watch the sunset.  This gives the impression that there's some sort of plan at work, even if the plan is just to determine boundaries and such.  It reminds me a little too much of the raptors from Jurassic Park hitting the electric fence to find weaknesses.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

....

Look, Namikaze, not once did I say 'it's PAB technology and PAB technology alone that's doing this!!'  PAB technology, which is the same tech behind psychotropic IC, is how it is being done - just as PAB / psychotropic IC programming was used in the brainwashing and conversion of thousands of citizens of Renraku America, Seattle Arcology Division.  You wouldn't say then that PAB technology was 'where it begins and ends' - would you??

It's blatantly obvious - as stated in the third point of my Step 3, above - that the guiding force behind these invasions, possessions, or however you want to put it are the Elints that were being e-vivisected - while still fully aware, I expect - in the various black laboratories of NeoNET, Renraku, MCT, and other computer-intensive corporations.  (Yes, including Evo. I suspect the Mars experimental station base to have one of these as a major section - and then the wee matrix beasties got out of their bar codes, so to speak.  And no, Longshot, the mana level wouldn't have any effect.  It's the fact that Mars is the ultimate in isolation labs in Shadowrun.)

'Invasive Elint personality'.  I mean, I said it before, and I've just now laid out the logic behind the clearest, cleanest explanation of these events which accounts for all of the facts while requiring no others.  In what way can I more clearly explain this?

[Reaver]

....

Look, Namikaze, not once did I say 'it's PAB technology and PAB technology alone that's doing this!!'  PAB technology, which is the same tech behind psychotropic IC, is how it is being done - just as PAB / psychotropic IC programming was used in the brainwashing and conversion of thousands of citizens of Renraku America, Seattle Arcology Division.  You wouldn't say then that PAB technology was 'where it begins and ends' - would you??

It's blatantly obvious - as stated in the third point of my Step 3, above - that the guiding force behind these invasions, possessions, or however you want to put it are the Elints that were being e-vivisected - while still fully aware, I expect - in the various black laboratories of NeoNET, Renraku, MCT, and other computer-intensive corporations.  (Yes, including Evo. I suspect the Mars experimental station base to have one of these as a major section - and then the wee matrix beasties got out of their bar codes, so to speak.  And no, Longshot, the mana level wouldn't have any effect.  It's the fact that Mars is the ultimate in isolation labs in Shadowrun.)

'Invasive Elint personality'.  I mean, I said it before, and I've just now laid out the logic behind the clearest, cleanest explanation of these events which accounts for all of the facts while requiring no others.  In what way can I more clearly explain this?

Good Theory. Have to see how on the ball you are....

[Longshot23]

I accept that ELINTs would be unaffected by a no/low mana environment - I put that up in case the Sybil could be down to spirits, in case there's something we've all missed.

The other thing I just thought of is: a Dissonant free sprite gets possession of a PAB unit . . . and is then incredibly bored because there's nothing to apply the PAB unit to - nothing to use it on.

[Reaver]

PABs where being written about back in 2055, so by 2075 (and I think Wyrm was hinting at this) a "machine" might be too strong a word. By this time, PAB could be reduced down to a program you (in theory) run a deck!