[Michael Chandra]

Can't find the signal-0 anymore, nothing in Unwired or Arsenal on it and SR4a just says jamming means you lose wireless connectivity.

[Sichr]

Ah...yes. so it works right even RAW

[Michael Chandra]

By the way, that would mean a Jammer Rating 1 is enough to jam wireless smartguns.

[Sichr]

Correct. Thats why it pays off to have Smart Jammer on your side. And gun with integrated commlink. Or skinlink. Or at least Smartgun running erogonomic ECCM 5 with optimization 3

[mtfeeney = Baron]

What's a smart jammer?

[Sichr]

Very usefull thing: p. 58, Arsenal
It can jam either choosen frequencies, or it can jam specific nodes in range, despites on what frequency node uses.
EDIT: Or it can jam everything in range Except for your own frequency...

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Wow, that's bad ass...

So, the final agreement is that ECM blocks signals going out and coming in.  This also includes targeting systems trying to lock on and guided missiles and such.  Correct?

[Michael Chandra]

Not exactly. ECM against Sensors has its own ruleset, which pretty much summarizes to the same shortcut though.

[DamienHollow]

Oh? But doesn't that mean you're saying that a Jammer cannot ever block a Rating-2 Signal within the Jammer's range? That would mean Jammers would pretty much never work.

It says in the rules (SR4a p231) that any device with a Signal rating less than the Jammer's rating (and ECM counts as a Jammer) are jammed and lose wireless connectivity. Meanwhile, wi-fi inhibiting paint and wallpaper are treated like Jammers. "any Signal rating less than the negating system's rating cannot extend past the boundary."

So a device, such as an RFID chip, WOULD be blocked if it's within a jamming range at a signal above the device's signal. If my Jammer's active at Rating 6 and there's an RFID chip within 20 meters of it (and one can argue that ECM would broadcast from every part of the vehicle), it won't work anymore because its own Signal is jammed (6->2 > 1). Doesn't matter if there's someone at Signal 6+5 just 5 meters away from it, they're not in mutual signal range because the RFID tag gets cut out.

A jammer doesn't work like that. The RFID Chip broadcasts whenever exposed to the right signal (this is why they don't need batteries, they feed off an external source) A jammer may even set the thing off if it broadcasts on said signal. Anyways, the RFID chip is just happy to sit their in the middle of the jammer and broadcast. The question is can the reader pick it up? If the reader is outside the Jammers range and RFID is strong enough to reach beyond the jammers reach then the signal can be picked up and understood. If the reader is in the jammers range then it can be affected.
It's like a boat (the signal) and a lighthouse (the receiver.) If the boat is in the fog bank (Jammer range) and sails out of it then the light house can see it. If the fog bank moves over the lighthouse, then it can't see anything let alone the boat.
Jammers do not Jam things that don't need to receive coherent information and may even power things that need a signal to activate.

[Michael Chandra]

So are you claiming that RAW is wrong, or that we're misreading RAW?

It says that being jammed means no wireless connection. The RFID chip uses its wireless connection to broadcast its intel. If there's no wireless connection, then it wouldn't be able to broadcast in the first place. All I can tell from RAW is that it does not HAVE the ability to broadcast anymore. So at what point am I misreading RAW here according to you?

- -

Also, you keep going on about Jammer reach. Now I read that as a Jammer Rating 6 being Rating 2 at 20m, so any normal RFID tag within 20m would be jammed. You, however, state that the signal still is broadcasted and that anyone outside the reach would be able to pick it up.

So does that mean you're stating Jammers will not EVER be able to block anything that has Signal 2+? Because if I'm in a jammed zone at Signal 4 while the jammer is rating 6, then 11m would be far enough according to you. So that'd mean that all I need to do to communicate with my teammate next to me is finding a relay routing station at 11m~1000m. Which would mean all this wireless-protecting stuff with jammers and more is utterly useless according to you.

[Sichr]

Well thats IMO not what: "loses matrix conectivity" means

[DamienHollow]

So are you claiming that RAW is wrong, or that we're misreading RAW?

It says that being jammed means no wireless connection. The RFID chip uses its wireless connection to broadcast its intel. If there's no wireless connection, then it wouldn't be able to broadcast in the first place. All I can tell from RAW is that it does not HAVE the ability to broadcast anymore. So at what point am I misreading RAW here according to you?

- -

Also, you keep going on about Jammer reach. Now I read that as a Jammer Rating 6 being Rating 2 at 20m, so any normal RFID tag within 20m would be jammed. You, however, state that the signal still is broadcasted and that anyone outside the reach would be able to pick it up.

So does that mean you're stating Jammers will not EVER be able to block anything that has Signal 2+? Because if I'm in a jammed zone at Signal 4 while the jammer is rating 6, then 11m would be far enough according to you. So that'd mean that all I need to do to communicate with my teammate next to me is finding a relay routing station at 11m~1000m. Which would mean all this wireless-protecting stuff with jammers and more is utterly useless according to you.

I'm saying that that is how the science actually works IRL. Magic isn't real so it can work on whatever principal it wants. I don;t care if it's pudding powered as long as those rules are consistent. RFID chips are a real world piece of modern day tech. So are jammers. Jammers flood the airwaves with electronic chaff trying to drown out a signal or signals. If you are not receiving the signals and trying to interpret them then this would do nothing to said device. RFID's don't interpret data and in most cases (with the games given ranges) can out broadcast the jammer. You have to Jam the device receiving. If it were a radio then yes, jamming one device would be sufficient though it would be possible that one could still broadcast just not receive. In theory i suppose you could do something akin to active noise cancellation but trying that with an FM signal would be a nightmare not just in tech but in player positioning.

Core says that RFID chips have a signal rating 1, and that that range is 40 meters. Jammers if directional have a 20 meter x rating range. Area jammers (what we are discussing) have a 5 meter x rating range. In a nut shell these number are just pathetic for what they're trying to do. Might explain why they can be put in a handheld sensor but they should be much larger than this for vehicles.

Area Jammer could jam a Signal 2 device as long as A) the jammer is at least a rating two and B) the receiving device is in range of the jammer. The problem here isn't that the jammers range is short. Its that RFID chips are so bonehead simple they can't be fudged with that easily. Sending information, receiving information, trying to understand information, are all different things that can be done independently of one and other. Anyone in range of a sufficient jammier hears nothing but static.

[Sichr]

From the game perspective: +1 to Michael Chandra / -1 to DamienHollow

From IRL perspective: You will need some solid backing to prove that it is possible to ping RFID in jammed area.

[KarmaInferno]

General game forum comment: If you are discussing real life or house rules or other out of game stuff, it is really beholden on you to specify so from the start.

Because the default assumption on any game forum will be that people are discussing the rules as written unless specified as otherwise. Failing to clarify from the beginning that you are introducing an outside topic or detail causes confusion.


-k

[Sichr]

lol