[Ted Fast]

So I just finished making a character with a first time player of SR (i'm hopefuly going to be a first time GM of SR soon).
The character is a assassin clearly inspired by Agent 47 of Hitman fame so the player really wanted to use a garrote.

My problem is this, I have never seen  a garrote in action (in SR and for that matter RL) so I don't know if that weapon is OP as nuts or really weak?
(Right now the player has STR 5, AGI 9 and 4 points in Exotic Melee Weapon Garrote.)

[Mantis]

Well as the rules in Arsenal for the garrote (pg 38-39) point out, you can only use it if you surprise your opponent. It has the potential to do quite a bit of damage in that case but the thing is basically designed to strangle someone to death. You usually use it by approaching from the rear, wrap the cord around the target's neck and use the handles to pull it tight or else twist it to strangle them. Nasty with little chance of the target getting out of it.
The surprise only caveat stops it from being over powered, and you can't use it outside of surprise. I think there are far nastier weapons out there for dealing damage.

[Reaver]

well, the Garrote is (Str/2)p
he has a dice pool of 13 (Agility + skill)

so, IF he manages to surprise the target he can use the garrote, and it will do 3p+ net hits on the first attack, resisted by body + impact armor...

After that, you follow the subduing combat rules on page 161 of SR4a...

Basically, it becomes a game of complex actions, with the defender trying to get more successes then the hitman to get free (not likely because the initial attack was unresisted, and those are the initial target number for the defender to beat. The hitman can also spend a complex action to tighten his grip! however, a STRICK interpretation of the rules means that each complex action just inflicts base weapon damage (in this case 3) as the hits for the subdual test merely increases his hold to prevent escape.

So, in the first pass of combat, he is going to do on average 13/4 = 3 hits + STR/2p damage... or 6 points. resisted by Impact armor and body.
the next complex action he is going to do 3 more damage automatically, unless the defender has both a higher initiative AND breaks the hold.


*****
is it an overpowered weapon??? I guess that depends on his infiltration skills, the situation and a host of other factors.... but it seems inline with other things a player can/could do from an ambush position...

[Mantis]

Uh, Reaver, the garrote has it's own rules in this case. The damage inflicted per complex action is 1/2 strength (round up) + net hits from the attack test. Pg 39 of Arsenal. So in your example he is going to do 6 points of damage every complex action on average. I don't think there is anything ambiguous about the wording there.

[Reaver]

Uh, Reaver, the garrote has it's own rules in this case. The damage inflicted per complex action is 1/2 strength (round up) + net hits from the attack test. Pg 39 of Arsenal. So in your example he is going to do 6 points of damage every complex action on average. I don't think there is anything ambiguous about the wording there.

Except for the blurb that says "net hits made during subduing combat increase the escape threshold AND NOT damage" (or close to that effect)

As I said, a strict interpretation would be after the first strike, the weapon reverts back to base damage.

(however, personally, I would continue to run with the baseline being the damage inflicted during the first attack myself)

[RHat]

Perhaps a citation would help:  The following are the rules for the Garrote from what is, I believe, the most recent version of Arsenal:

When attacking, use the rules for subduing combat (see p. 161, SR4A) with the following exceptions: If the attacker successfully subdues and immobilizes his target, he causes a Damage Value equal to half his Strength (round up) plus the net hits scored on his attack roll with each Complex Action, which the target must resist with his Body + Impact armor. The attacker may maintain the grapple and spend Complex Actions to get a better grip while continuing to inflict damage or knock the defender down, but cannot choose to inflict Stun damage, as per the normal subduing rules

Notably, Reaver, the rule you are referring to is the one for getting a better grip - normal subdual combat cannot deal damage in this fashion to begin with.  The Garrote, and it's monofilament cousin, are special exceptions to the normal grappling rules.

[Mantis]

Damn and I thought posting the page number referring to the rule I was quoting was enough. Oh well. 

[Reaver]

Damn and I thought posting the page number referring to the rule I was quoting was enough. Oh well. 

Currently away from books ATM


Thank you RHat.


I stand corrected.

[Ted Fast]

Thanks for your responses guys.

I'll look around and see if I can find something more versatile for they player to use.
I'm pretty sure that there are better ways for him to use 16 BPs.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Think Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell.  Nothing says "I hate you in a completely detached, emotionless way." like a silenced pistol with various ammo types.  Stick 'n' Shock for non-lethal takedowns, APDS for when you really hate the person that you're shooting.

[Ted Fast]

Think Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell.  Nothing says "I hate you in a completely detached, emotionless way." like a silenced pistol with various ammo types.  Stick 'n' Shock for non-lethal takedowns, APDS for when you really hate the person that you're shooting.

Right now the garroting elf is packing a Ruger Thunderbolt with a silencer mod (among others) so maybe that would work, I'll ask the player.

On side note, it has to stink like hells to be shot point blank with a narrow burst of stick n shock in the bone-dome.

BTW here is a link to the character in question, it's the second one.
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=11183.0

[Reaver]

Think Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell.  Nothing says "I hate you in a completely detached, emotionless way." like a silenced pistol with various ammo types.  Stick 'n' Shock for non-lethal takedowns, APDS for when you really hate the person that you're shooting.

Right now the garroting elf is packing a Ruger Thunderbolt with a silencer mod (among others) so maybe that would work, I'll ask the player.

On side note, it has to stink like hells to be shot point blank with a narrow burst of stick n shock in the bone-dome.

BTW here is a link to the character in question, it's the second one.
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=11183.0

Ahh, the thunderbolt! My personal favorite pistol

As a point of interest, remember that if he is looking for that totally silent take down, a silenced pistol is NOT the way to go, the silencer only gives you a -4 to hearing perception tests. Which is good, but not 'silent'.

The garrote is still a good choice for this.... Or a combat knife (if a little messier). The advantage of the garrote too is that you also do not have the telltale blood splattering that you would have with a gunshot or edged weapon.



•••
All depends on the flavor of the character he wants to have.

[Ted Fast]

Ahh, the thunderbolt! My personal favorite pistol

As a point of interest, remember that if he is looking for that totally silent take down, a silenced pistol is NOT the way to go, the silencer only gives you a -4 to hearing perception tests. Which is good, but not 'silent'.

The garrote is still a good choice for this.... Or a combat knife (if a little messier). The advantage of the garrote too is that you also do not have the telltale blood splattering that you would have with a gunshot or edged weapon.



•••
All depends on the flavor of the character he wants to have.

His Thunderbolt has the silencer mod not accessory so it's -6, but you're right it wouldn't be absolutely silent. Maybe he should get a clip or two of Subsonic ammo...

[RHat]

Colt Government 2066 (Electronic Firing comes stock), integral silencer, sub-sonic ammo, barrel reduction, ceramic/plasteel construction.  It's a pretty awesome subtle weapon.

[Ted Fast]

Colt Government 2066 (Electronic Firing comes stock), integral silencer, sub-sonic ammo, barrel reduction, ceramic/plasteel construction.  It's a pretty awesome subtle weapon.

That sounds (hoho) like a pretty sneaky gun. Thanks for pointing out electronic firing, I totally forgot that it reduces sound.

Funny thing is the player wanted a Custom Look Rating 2 on his Ruger Sneakybolt, I don't really know what his plan with that was TBH.