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Sticky Fingered Player giving me headaches...

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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #90 on: <09-10-13/2229:32> »
I think the biggest issue is overcoming the D&D mindset...

In D&D, you go to the dungeon, kill things, loot everything not nailed down (or even that stuff if a player bought a pry bar!) go back to town, rest, repeat.

In SR, EVERYWHERE is the dungeon, there is no town to go to to rest and sell in safety....

Generally yes, but not in this case.  They knew they COULD be quiet, and we even SUGGESTED that they be quiet - but they decided, in front of us, that violence against a non-target from whom they just needed to get information was their first option - because they argued that 'running away from people wanting to kill you is the name of the game'.  As compared to 'making it so that people don't even know you've been there'.
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Reaver

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« Reply #91 on: <09-10-13/2355:13> »
I think the biggest issue is overcoming the D&D mindset...

In D&D, you go to the dungeon, kill things, loot everything not nailed down (or even that stuff if a player bought a pry bar!) go back to town, rest, repeat.

In SR, EVERYWHERE is the dungeon, there is no town to go to to rest and sell in safety....

Generally yes, but not in this case.  They knew they COULD be quiet, and we even SUGGESTED that they be quiet - but they decided, in front of us, that violence against a non-target from whom they just needed to get information was their first option - because they argued that 'running away from people wanting to kill you is the name of the game'.  As compared to 'making it so that people don't even know you've been there'.

So.... Bloody Pink Mohawk style..... Gotcha...
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ZeConster

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« Reply #92 on: <09-11-13/0751:15> »
Last I checked, murdering civilians fell in the "Quentin Tarantino movie" corner.

Silence

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« Reply #93 on: <09-11-13/1950:01> »
No, Pink Screaming Mohawk, too.
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Crunch

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« Reply #94 on: <09-11-13/2321:51> »
I'd say not. Pink Mohawk generally implies a level of "heroism." Typically I see the "civilian murder spree" more often in the "bad man in a bad world" amoral murder spree type games. I've always put those games in the "black hat" category.

Xzylvador

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« Reply #95 on: <09-12-13/0325:29> »
Don't know. Saints Row is pretty much the most Pink Mohawk game I know and there's plenty of civilian casualties there.
What constitutes being a 'hero' anyway?

Magnaric

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« Reply #96 on: <09-12-13/0954:52> »
Pink Mohawk to be always just implied obvious visibility. In the case of Shadowrun, it means your character is easily-identified based on some credential(prominent horns, visible tattoos, a signature weapon, or even yes, a Pink Mohawk), whereas in D&D it could mean much the same thing but you don't hear about it. The reason for this is Shadowrun(read; running in the shadows) is a game where NOT being seen is the priority, considering you don't want most common people to witness the things you do. Whereas in D&D, it's the exact opposite(unless you're playing an espionage campaign), where you're big, badass hero-types who excel at kissing babies and slaying Orcs and looting the evil temple of treasure.

Anyways, as far as the issue at hand with sticky-fingered players, my philosophy, in Shadowrun and D&D, has always been quasi-realism. In that, to move the story forward, sometimes you let the players get away with stuff, but generally there are ALWAYS consequences. Everything people mentioned above is good depending on the situation. They might get garbage data, they might get a tagged item that a Corp can trace them with, they can only carry so much if they're stealing physical gear.

Personally, my favourite is the Johnson politely suggesting before a run that they ONLY go after their target item on a run and leave the rest alone. Say it's an illegal weapons testing center, and they're paid to make off with a prototype shotgun or something. They can go in, get the gun, get out unseen, and get paid. However, they'll have ample opportunity to filch a bunch of other, potentially-lucrative weapons and gear from the place. Now, street-level smarts would suggest to leave them alone, but the temptation may be too much. So they take a handful of these high-tech guns. They even think they're clever by scanning them for RFID tags and using a Tag Eraser on them. But here's where it gets fun.

These weapons were prototypes not just because they're a new model of small-arm, but because the company is testing a new type of RFID tag that lays dormant and supposedly undetectable until the trigger is activated, in this case if they pass through silent perimeter scanners at the edge of the facility. SO even if they scan for RFIDs before they leave, it does no good. The reason the Mr Johnson wanted that one specific gun is that it's the newest prototype top be shipped there, and hasn't had one of these dormant tags installed yet.

If they hock the guns at a pawn shop or Bob's Bullets or whatever, they see in the news or through a witness or something later on that a huge LoneStar/Knight Errant raid goes down on all these places. Basically the corp paid a LOT of money to get these back. Johnson is pissed, because he gave specific instructions to avoid this kind of clusterfuck, and the PCs deliberately went off-mission to try and get some extra Nuyen on the side. He then tells them in no uncertain terms that they get 60% of the agreed take, as the other 40% now goes to his expenses for having town leave town for a while because of the heat. As a consolation prize, due to their abject lack of professionalism, Mr Johnson is now deleting them from his contact list, as well as his network of fixers, contacts, and anyone else he knows. Meaning their notoriety takes a spike as well.

That's not to say that they can't stay in Seattle/other setting and find work elsewhere, just that they will likely find work a bit slim picking the next while, until they re-establish themselves through other people as a reliable, professional crew again.

Point of all this is it's not a final death knell for the team, and yes, the run was designed to test how well they take directions from the person who's goddamn paying their bills, so it was set up with a moderate chance for them to screw it up. However, it's designed as a wakeup call, which nearly every runner has had at some point in their career. If you agree to do X to get paid by Mr J, you go and do X, and that's it. That's where they get respect, and more people hire them for jobs. If they do X but also do Y, take a little J and T on the side, and maybe plug M full of holes, why in the Seven-Hells would ANYONE want to work with that team again?
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Selach

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« Reply #97 on: <09-21-13/1132:25> »
Two things come to mind. 1. He's able to steal more because he has the time. Don't give him any. Make extras real tough to get. 2. If you are not having fun, eliminate the problem player or go elsewhere. My biggest regrrt as a gm was tolerating the behavior. I thought the other players would be angry if I got rid of him. When he was gone they asked why I hadn't done it sooner.

GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #98 on: <09-22-13/1925:47> »
I had never heard of the terms before I came to these boards, but from what I gather is the two terms describe the game's level of realism and violence. (Can also describe the type of violence, as in over the top violence is Pink Mohawk) The two things kind of go together, because both in our world and the SR one, lots of homicides tend to cause consequences in a world that is even semi realistic.

Pink Mohawk favors more over the top and obvious violence. It also tends to tone down realism. So you'll get away with carrying larger guns in more parts of the city probaly, and also may not have to worry about licenses as much. Body counts will probaly be higher. Reputation as being a "badass" is probaly encouraged. ETC.

Black Trenchcoat: Most likely less violence over all. There may be violence, but an empathis is on realism and because of that there are consequences to violence, such as Homicide detectives and the like. You spend more time either avoiding murders or covering them up, maintaining disguises and identities and the like. Reputation as being a "professional" is encouraged, where a reputation as a psycopath can cause problems.

Many GMs blend these play styles in different ways. I like both realism and violence for example.

The GTA games are pretty much Pink Mohawk. Saints Row would probaly be screaming bloody Pink Mohawk because it's crazily over the top with hundreds of corpses left behind on a mission and getting in shootouts with judges, complete with robe. (I've never been in an SR game quite that bloody, but might be interesting sometime to try. I found it a bit much when I was playing the game)

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #99 on: <09-22-13/2046:35> »
Seems more to me like "Pink Mohawk" is a pejorative term used to try shaming people who care more about having a fun time playing the game than with going into CSI levels of detail with things.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #100 on: <09-22-13/2050:52> »
I think "cinematic" is a bigger factor in Pink Mohawk than violence, really. While Pink Mohawk will typically have more violence as well, it's not a necessary factor (gel rounds are still quite handy to use).

As an example, in a short campaign which used some of the Season 4 Missions, I played a character whose real SIN ended up with a pretty high Public Awareness (granted, this was because of a cryptic message carved into the chest of a tortured-and-murdered Humanis member, but that was for non-Pink-Mohawk reasons - and what happens in the Underground stays in the Underground, right?). This meant that when we had to cause a bit of a riot at a rally, instead of trying to figure out a subtle way, my character bought a megaphone at a nearby Stuffer Shack, climbed on top of the biggest troll in the crowd, introduced herself, and invited everyone for pancakes, except for Humanis. They didn't take a shot at me, but they didn't have to - all we had to do was have the mage use an illusion spell to make people think they did, and a brawl started. The fight was no more violent than it would have been with a black trench coat approach, the only real difference was in the method used (and in me sticking around for the brawl).
As a side effect of this Pink Mohawk approach, we didn't have to deal with some media people trying to blackmail us into giving them info (which was supposed to be an issue with that mission), since they hadn't spotted us sneaking around. Basically my pink mohawk hid the trenchcoaty bits from sight.

Another example is a run where we had to locate some thugs who'd robbed a cyberware shipment in the civilized part of the Barrens. We tracked them down to a street doc where they were having the stolen ware installed, and instead of subtly working our way past security, two of us rode into the building on motorcycles (though we were polite enough to have others open the sliding doors first) and took out the security guards with gel round salvos. Although there were a lot of flying bullets, we made sure not to use any physical-damage attacks. (The hacker did end up claiming the van they'd stolen, though.)

Other things we've done that I don't think qualify as black trenchcoat include: vacuuming the place we're searching for evidence so the cleaning lady we just tied up won't get busted for throwing a party while her boss is away, and a <1 Essence character calmly notifying a bunch of spirits at a construction site belonging to a dragon that there would be a firefight soon (this ended up causing the dragon to drop by later (and a military helicopter followed it to investigate), meaning we basically had to cut the firefight short so both sides could flee for cover).

To put things differently, if you look at the spy business, I see black trenchcoat as being more like Mission: Impossible (the TV series, not the films), while pink mohawk is more like Burn Notice.



Seems more to me like "Pink Mohawk" is a pejorative term used to try shaming people who care more about having a fun time playing the game than with going into CSI levels of detail with things.
Actually, CSI:Miami I would prolly qualify as Pink Mohawk - a gun that shoots so many bullets it turns people into a red mist, flying to Brazil to take on a gang leader, a guy roasting himself by firing a rocket launcher while hiding inside a cement truck... all of which I absolutely loved.

Crunch

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« Reply #101 on: <09-22-13/2210:19> »
I'd agree with Ze. "Pink Mohawk" isn't about violence level it's about cinematic style and rule of cool dominating over a concern with "realism."

Silence

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« Reply #102 on: <09-23-13/0023:31> »
Actually, Burn Notice would really, really like to be Black Trench coat, but when there's one Trench coat surrounded by nothing but Mohawks, you really have to improvise.  Sometimes messily and all over the place.  So, yes Burn Notice is Pink Mohawk.  Much to Michael Westin's professional shame.

No, Pink Mohawk is not an attempt to shame people into going into CSI levels of detail.  It can be a lot of run to play in a Pink Mohawk game, and run one.  right now, my TT group is running as the bodyguards for a Catholic Priest.  With the sort of immunity that goes with it, and so far have smuggled BTL chips through Heathrow, plotted to steal the Crown Jewels, but gave that up when the museum dropped a butt-ton of security around the powerful mage of a priest.
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GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #103 on: <09-23-13/0421:50> »
I agree that it's not about shaming. It's a taste issue. It''d be like insulting someone for a preference for beer over wine. Also, many GMs make use of both elements. In fact, a very effective technique is to put elements from one of the two main styles in the opposite type campaign. The contrast works well. Making Michael Weston go on a Pink Mohawk mission with Fiona. And yeah, some characters are a certain style, no matter what campaign they are in.

ZeConster

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« Reply #104 on: <09-23-13/0809:07> »
Actually, Burn Notice would really, really like to be Black Trench coat, but when there's one Trench coat surrounded by nothing but Mohawks, you really have to improvise.  Sometimes messily and all over the place.  So, yes Burn Notice is Pink Mohawk.  Much to Michael Westin's professional shame.
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