[Michael Chandra]

Oh, sure, it might not be a perfect match to current reality. But that's not what I was talking about. =)

[MadBear]

No, we're talking about a balance of realism and playability.  And to me, without seeing the whole system, and without playing it, I'm not impressed. There are some things I do like, such as the change to initiative and clearing up how fire and electrical attacks work, but am not happy with the changes to attacks, and especially not happy with Limits and Accuracy. I just can't get past those, I hate them with a burning passion that rivals a thousand fiery suns.
I am just stating my reactions, my opinion, nothing more. And hey, this is the internet, where people come to complain or look at boobs. I see no boobs here, so complain it is. And sometimes complaints trigger interesting conversations.
I had my reservations about 4th ed, but ended up liking it. have more than reservations for 5th though... when DnD 3rd came out, I had reservations as well, and ended up loving it. Was so disappointed in 4th ed that I am skipping it entirely. I'll give SR 5th a chance, but may very well just keep playing 4th ed rules.

[Michael Chandra]

I understand you're looking at things from that point of view, but I was simply looking at the potential for players in combat rulewise. And from that perspective, I like the change.

- - -

Bull posted on Dumpshock armor encumbrance for normal armor is gone.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I like the idea that everyone gets only 1 attack. It means a few things. First of, fights will last longer. Second, weaker partymembers actually still get to fire. Third, it means Melee and Magic now get to hit as many people as Firearms. This is a serious rebalance of the game and definitely will be one of the bigger differences between SR4 and SR5. Combined with Reaction+Intuition on dodge, assuming that information is still correct, and the removal of most if not all dicepool bonuses, gone are the 1-second gunfights. Instead, even a few mooks take time to butcher and a fight with worthy adversaries will last long enough that considering to run away is actually an option. If you hit it's more lethal, but you'll hit less and fire less often.

eeeeehh.... mostly. Having never been in a gun fight, I have to rely on movies and how I imagine it would go. And I'm sorry, but you can pull the trigger a LOT faster than you can punch. Even if you're Bruce Lee.... And that comparison doesn't break down when considering augmented sams and multiple initiative passes. If I can't fire my gun six times in three seconds(three initiative passes, two simple actions for each) then you certainly can't deliver three distinct melee attacks in that same time. Guns will always, and should always, be a lot more deadly than attacking with melee weapons. Otherwise, why would they have been invented and increased in popularity they way they did? Because they're more deadly than a sword.

I think that is an oversimplified look at why guns work.

There are a lot of factors going into weapon choice through history, and these are just a few.

1.  Effectiveness vs the enemy
2.  Training required to use effectively.
3.  Range capabilities
4. Risk factor for the user
5. Cost

The thing is at the scale of what most people carry gun wise melee is about as deadly on a hit, melee is easier to defend against though, it requires a lot more training to be effective, even though it comes with more force it has less penatrative capabilities so the armor of that time is more effective against it, to stab someone you are in stabed back range, killing people before they get close to you stops them from stabbing you so range helps a lot etc.

On a pure phsyical trauma level swords cause just as much or more damage than most bullets, but range, training, effectiveness vs armor all make guns a better choice. In a game the training side is usually taken out though the oppsoed defense of previous editions showed this fairly well.  Effectiveness vs armor? Well that is a bit harder, it depends on what the armor is designed for and honestly super sci-fi sword vs bullet of the future its up to the author. Range, well guns are still the best.  You can kill people before they have the opportunity to stab you. 

[Ghoulfodder]

Looking good.

I'm assuming that the change to one combat / firing action a phase is an attempt to stop people just blowing away multiple targets in one phase. So I assume that a SS weapon fires one bullet per action phase at one target. A semi-auto weapon fires one bullet at one target as a simple action, or two / three bullets at one target per action phase.

That makes sense to me. It's easy to pull the trigger quickly on a semi-auto and get two rounds off. But just not feasible to do that at two seperate targets. Under 4e, with three inititive passes you could shoot six different people in three seconds with a semi-auto pistol. Whereas now, you could only shoot three people in the same time.

It might be nice to wide long or full bursts allowing you to hit multiple targets at a damage penalty as a compensation maybe. Spray fire stylee.

Definitely liking virtually everything I'm seeing with 5e.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Just for fun I spun up a character using A attrbiutes, B magic, C skills, D race human, E resources with hero builder 4e, he is like 561 BP.  I based him loosely off of Alex Louis Armstrong from full metal alchemist.  As a note with his strengh he could pick up things like a balistic shield and be fairly durable.


Alex Louis Armstrong (Human Magician)
B 3, A 3, R 5, S 7, C 2, I 2, L 5, W 5, E 3, Ess 6, M 6, Init 7, IP 1
Condition Monitor boxes (Physical/Stun): 10/11
Armor (Ballistic/Impact): 12/12
Skills: Arcana 3, Assensing 3, Athletics Group 1, Banishing 3, Binding 2, Counterspelling 3, Enchanting 3, Etiquette 1, Perception 1, Ritual Spellcasting 3, Spellcasting 4, Stealth Group 1, Summoning 4, Unarmed Combat 6
Knowledge Skills: English N
Qualities: Exceptional Attribute: Strength, Magician
Spells: Detect Enemies, Extended, Fireball, Heal, Healthy Glow, Increase Reflexes, Levitate, Petrify
Gear:
. . Armor Jacket
. . Identity: Specify Name with Fake SIN (2), Low Lifestyle
Weapons:
. . Attack of Will (vs. Spirits) [DV 2P vs. I]
. . Hardliner Gloves [Unarmed, DV 8P vs. I]
. . Unarmed Strike [Unarmed, DV 7S vs. I]

[Boomstick]

Being able to kill at a distance without exposing yourself to counter-attack is also a good part of it.

[VajraSupremus]

...I just noticed that the skill Sneaking is on the Adept's skill list. They replaced Infiltration?

[Shinobi Killfist]

...I just noticed that the skill Sneaking is on the Adept's skill list. They replaced Infiltration?

That would be my guess.

[Mara]

...I just noticed that the skill Sneaking is on the Adept's skill list. They replaced Infiltration?

Interesting. I had missed that. I can see it, though, since Infiltration is, really, more then just "sneaking" by the
word, but the skill amounts to...just that.

[VajraSupremus]

Odd. Also, I don't see any OS on the commlink.

[Crunch]

...I just noticed that the skill Sneaking is on the Adept's skill list. They replaced Infiltration?

Interesting. I had missed that. I can see it, though, since Infiltration is, really, more then just "sneaking" by the
word, but the skill amounts to...just that.

Want to bet they combined Infiltration and Shadowing?

[Glaive]

The Gunslinger Adept has improved attribute agility 4. This means is agi before adept powers was 2. This would leave him with an ability score array of 3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2 which is 12 attribute points. This is BEFORE adjusting for racial bonuses! However, there is no attribute priority that gives less than 12. Seems to me like whoever made this forgot to add the elven racial bonuses...

[Shinobi Killfist]

The Gunslinger Adept has improved attribute agility 4. This means is agi before adept powers was 2. This would leave him with an ability score array of 3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2 which is 12 attribute points. This is BEFORE adjusting for racial bonuses! However, there is no attribute priority that gives less than 12. Seems to me like whoever made this forgot to add the elven racial bonuses...

No attribute boost is a power you activate in 4e, it is not a permanent boost.  He has 12 attribute points with racial mods with his given stats.

[Glaive]

The Gunslinger Adept has improved attribute agility 4. This means is agi before adept powers was 2. This would leave him with an ability score array of 3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2 which is 12 attribute points. This is BEFORE adjusting for racial bonuses! However, there is no attribute priority that gives less than 12. Seems to me like whoever made this forgot to add the elven racial bonuses...

No attribute boost is a power you activate in 4e, it is not a permanent boost.  He has 12 attribute points with racial mods with his given stats.

Ahh, that makes way more...wait wouldn't that leave him with agi 5?
bod 3=2pts, agi 6=4pts(elf+1), rea 3=2pts, str 2=1pts
will 2=1pts, log 2=1pts, int 3=2pts, cha 3=0pts(elf+2)
2+4+2+1+1+1+2=13. Yeah, he's spending one more point. Ehh, prolly bought one of those attributes with karma.

Also, I'm wondering how he has Edge 5 despite there being no Elf(4) option. He would have had to spend karma on this, but it seems pretty spendy to increase an attribute to 5 with karma. Was he able to spend karma on edge first before using his special attribute points?